Venting, But Would Also Like Your Honest Opinions (Long)
Decorating By nissi01 Updated 7 Jun 2011 , 10:00pm by cakesbycathy
I'm wondering: If she wants a main cake for 150, why did you price one out at 250 servings? If she wants 150 then that would be less. Then most of us offer sheet cakes at a savings - no fondant, .......filled........... but at a lower price. See if that flies with her.
Then if all else fails use the reverse psychology approach. Offer her a cake for 150 people then ask her to provide cookies for the rest. She'll sit there thinking about this for a while then will come to the conclusion that it would be embarrasing to serve some guests cake and ask the rest to eat a cookie. This gives her a mental slap to the brain to readjust her thinking. 
Sneaky yes, effective............absolutely.
If you are considering the pros and cons of the costs and easy, between a larger several tiered cake and a bunch of single tiered cakes you also have to consider...
You would need 40 cake boards vs a much smaller amount for the lager cakes.
40 boxes vs no box, one large box or three or four boxes for the large cake.
Are the 40 cakes just going to sit flat on the table or do they get cake stands?
What is the difference in baking time? 80 layers of cake would take longer to bake than 6 or 8 of them. And yes I realize. you can buy more cake pans, but then that is an added expense, and would it be cost effective if you aren't going to use that many pans all the time.
Space to store 40 cakes between baking, icing, decorating and before delivery, during delivery, plus carrying in 40 cakes, vs 3-4 or one large cake.
But also consider the cost savings of not having to buy centerpieces.
She has come to you for her wedding cake in the hope that you will give her a really cheap deal, a) because she is your daughter's teacher, and b) because your daughter has told her you are learning your craft.
Don't be bamboozled into doing this at less than the price you have already given her. Tell her this is your absolute minimum and if she feels she can get it cheaper elsewhere then she is free to do so. I NEVER drop my prices and advise potential clients that if they can not afford the size of cake and design requested then they need to think about a smaller cake(s) and a less complicated design and this is the only way they will get a cheaper price.
Hope this helps.
CP xxx
Even doing "cheap" centerpieces of mirrors, votive candles and rose petals or candies - that's got to be at least $5 per table, right? Times 40 tables? That's $200 they saved on centerpieces to put toward cake! Yay! And then there's the savings of the cake cutting fee as well.
Yes, I know a way to cut the cost...cut the amount of people. If you're expecting 400, you've got to realize that it's going to cost you some $$$.
That's exactly what I would tell her too! I'd also point out that if you reduce your guest list you can reduce the number of chair and table rentals, linen rentals, plated dinners, staff costs, drink costs, centerpieces etc. $1500 for cakes for 400 that also includes a gluten-free cake, which takes skill to make, isn't exorbitant.
Teacher, more than likely in her twenties, 3 to 5 years experience. Teacher's salary - $1,500 for cake-- not gonna happen unless her parents are well to do and are paying for the wedding. I don't think the prices quoted are out of line at all, but that teacher is going to have to sit down with her significant other and rethink their plans- because the big fancy wedding is more than likely not possible.
Teacher, more than likely in her twenties, 3 to 5 years experience. Teacher's salary - $1,500 for cake-- not gonna happen unless her parents are well to do and are paying for the wedding.
daughter-in-law ..... mid 20's ..... elementary teacher ...... private school ..... makes more than me and hubby combined. So yeah ..... there are teachers who could afford this.
p.s. Ill be using a friends commercial kitchen and Im mainly doing this also for practice and experience and to continue to apply what I have already learned.[/quote]
Ok, everyone seems to be doing a good job with the pricing issue. And it's good you have a commercial kitchen at your disposal. Now for the devil's advocate in me. Do you or your friend have a license and insurance for you to do the cake. I see you are in NJ and a year or so ago they passed a law that requires venues to have proof of the license and I think the insurance too, but I know the license.
I can tell you that a caker friend of mine was at the wedding venue when the bridesmaids were putting out cookies for the favors. The venue asked where they came from and when they found out they were not from a licensed vendor, THEY picked up the cookies and took them away. So I'd be sure you are covered in this area too. btw, my friend did the cake and had to produce proof of her business and health license. I don't remember about the insurance.
I was curious as well why the centerpiece cake was designed to feed 250 when the bride asked for one to feed 150? I would ask her if you can make the gluten free cake a sheet cake too, in order to cut cost. So have only one tiered cake, the rest sheet cake. Also, you could do a dummy cake for the display cake and do all sheet cake for that matter.
I have to kindly take exception with the opinions of some posters that "if you're not an experienced baker, charge less". I am learning also, but when a customer comes to me with an idea, before I agree to make it, I KNOW I can make their cake look and taste great. So why should I charge less just because I can't do every technique under the sun (yet!)? As long as I can do the techniques to complete the design my customer asks for I'm gonna charge for it!
@FrugalMommy...I agree with your take on pricing. I, too, feel as if the OP has a right to charge what "experienced" bakers charge for a cake that has techniques that she has, obviously, mastered in a classroom setting. To say that she doesn't "deserve" to be compensated fairly just because she mentions that she is taking this order to practice her skills, is not fair. Further, given the fact that she is charging LESS than $4.00 per serving for a fondant-covered-tiered cake, I think that she is being quite fair in her pricing. Especially since the pricing research that I have done lately has made it clear to me that it is very difficult to find fondant-covered-tiered cakes with gumpaste floral work in that price range (especially by ANY baker that is formally trained!!)
@Nissi01...I know that you have gotten several suggestions tonight and many of them are very good ones. That being said, I would suggest that you help your bride by encouraging her to follow IndyDebi's "60% Rule." You can find it here: http://cateritsimple.blogspot.com/2011/02/i-can-save-you-1000-right-here-right.html
Debi basically shares her many decades of experience in the wedding industry by educating brides and vendors that only 60% of invited guests will show up. She shares a story about a cake designer friend of hers that was in a similar situation and gives a very simple solution. I would encourage you to read it (as well as all of her other helpful hints that she shares on her great blog!!)
Whatever you decide to do, I hope that you will not sell yourself short by just randomly lowering the price OR by making MORE work for yourself for LESS money by following some of the other ideas (which again , are great ideas--just, in my opinion, not in this situation--given the fact that you will be working on borrowed time, in a borrowed kitchen and doing the work by yourself.) Either way, good luck to you and keep us posted!!
I gotta say this to everyone who keeps mentioning cutting the guest list... I'd rather attend a friend or family members wedding and have less food (or flowers, etc.) there than to be left off the guest list due to funding issues.
At 400 people, that is not just close friends and family...That is co-workers of the parents...Friends of the grandparents, the pool boy and his family, cousins 2nd grade teacher, etc. You can honestly afford to cut some of these people if you can't afford to feed them all.
I have a HUGE family...Big Jewish family on my mom's side and a big Irish family on my dad's side...All in all I have well over 25 cousins...add in their mates and all of their kids, well you get the pictures. the biggest wedding that the family has had thus far has been 250 people and that was not all close friends and family...Many of the people invited were business acquaintances of the bride's fathers.
If you keep discounting your price you are gonna end up helping her feed some of those 400 guests (because no matter what you tell the cashier at the grocery your gonna have to pay the full bill.) not to mention all the labor you will be putting in, remember time is money. She's not stupid she knows it will be expensive to have such a big wedding. She's just trying to get a good deal and I suggest you do the same you deserve a good deal for all your hard work.
Frugalmommy - it takes just as long and requires just as much skill to decorate a dummy cake so I don't see how this can cut down on cost. Don't know about you but I charge more for the decorating and time taken to decorating than the cost of the cake!
CP xx
Teacher, more than likely in her twenties, 3 to 5 years experience. Teacher's salary - $1,500 for cake-- not gonna happen unless her parents are well to do and are paying for the wedding. I don't think the prices quoted are out of line at all, but that teacher is going to have to sit down with her significant other and rethink their plans- because the big fancy wedding is more than likely not possible.
New teachers in the school district I live in have a beginning salary of $47,500 per year. Teachers have a reputation for being underpaid but their salaries have really kept pace with the rising cost of living compared to some other professions. I know many other college grads in my city who consider themselves lucky if they find a $10/hour job after they graduate.
What the bride makes is not material to the discussion at hand. It's entirely a business decision. Cake for 400 from us in fondant with gumpaste flowers is $2600. To me $1500 is a decent amount of money, and I'd probably try to find a way to work with her at the $1800-$2000 range. Cut the main cake to 250 and do some undecorated kitchen cakes. I don't know much about the size of the OP's business, but if she has questions like this, I find it highly unlikely she earns $1800 on an average weekend, so it's in your best interests to make it work. My hard cost for cake ( and I use the most expensive ingredients of anyone I've ever met) averages less than $2.50 per serving, so the is an easy $900 in profit to be made, and you're kind of silly if you don't take it. Negotiate on a $200 cake, no way, but it's just flat out stupid not to negotiate with someone trying to give you a couple thousand dollars.
What the bride makes is not material to the discussion at hand. It's entirely a business decision. Cake for 400 from us in fondant with gumpaste flowers is $2600. To me $1500 is a decent amount of money, and I'd probably try to find a way to work with her at the $1800-$2000 range. Cut the main cake to 250 and do some undecorated kitchen cakes. I don't know much about the size of the OP's business, but if she has questions like this, I find it highly unlikely she earns $1800 on an average weekend, so it's in your best interests to make it work. My hard cost for cake ( and I use the most expensive ingredients of anyone I've ever met) averages less than $2.50 per serving, so the is an easy $900 in profit to be made, and you're kind of silly if you don't take it. Negotiate on a $200 cake, no way, but it's just flat out stupid not to negotiate with someone trying to give you a couple thousand dollars.
I disagree. Assuming the price that she quoted the bride of $1500 that would be $3.75 per serving. Assuming what you stated for ingredient costs of $2.50 per serving she would only be making $1.25 per serving, or $500 "profit". Now that's assuming that the ingredient cost included the supplies needed too such as boxes, dowels or SPS, etc. But this $500 "profit" is not actually profit because you have not factored in an hourly wage for the OP. So it's not an "easy $900 in profit to be made" as you stated. It would be at lost less than $500 once supplies and an hourly wage are figured in.
It is up to the OP to decide what amount of profit is worth sacrificing time with her family or anything else she could be doing instead of taking the order. The bride is not "someone trying to give you a couple thousand dollars" she is a customer trying to make a business deal. She's not putting $1500 in a gift box with a bow and handing it to the OP because she's such as nice person. She's paying for goods and services provided by the OP.
What the bride makes is not material to the discussion at hand. It's entirely a business decision. Cake for 400 from us in fondant with gumpaste flowers is $2600. To me $1500 is a decent amount of money, and I'd probably try to find a way to work with her at the $1800-$2000 range. Cut the main cake to 250 and do some undecorated kitchen cakes. I don't know much about the size of the OP's business, but if she has questions like this, I find it highly unlikely she earns $1800 on an average weekend, so it's in your best interests to make it work. My hard cost for cake ( and I use the most expensive ingredients of anyone I've ever met) averages less than $2.50 per serving, so the is an easy $900 in profit to be made, and you're kind of silly if you don't take it. Negotiate on a $200 cake, no way, but it's just flat out stupid not to negotiate with someone trying to give you a couple thousand dollars.
I disagree. Assuming the price that she quoted the bride of $1500 that would be $3.75 per serving. Assuming what you stated for ingredient costs of $2.50 per serving she would only be making $1.25 per serving, or $500 "profit". Now that's assuming that the ingredient cost included the supplies needed too such as boxes, dowels or SPS, etc. But this $500 "profit" is not actually profit because you have not factored in an hourly wage for the OP. So it's not an "easy $900 in profit to be made" as you stated. It would be at lost less than $500 once supplies and an hourly wage are figured in.
It is up to the OP to decide what amount of profit is worth sacrificing time with her family or anything else she could be doing instead of taking the order. The bride is not "someone trying to give you a couple thousand dollars" she is a customer trying to make a business deal. She's not putting $1500 in a gift box with a bow and handing it to the OP because she's such as nice person. She's paying for goods and services provided by the OP.
I would think when snarky figures cost she includes all cost...correct me if I'm wrong snarky
I will have to disagree with the thought that every baker/decorator should be able to charge the same rates. Someone just starting out may THINK they are adequate (and some are) but most are looking at their cakes through rose colored glasses.
I don't know how many times I've seen mediocre (or truly awful) photos of cakes posted here and the person who made it thinks it's great and they're ready to open their own bakery.
People just starting out are often listening to too many family/friend compliments about how great their cakes are, but it's very rare that someone just starting out produces the same quality cake as someone who's been baking/decorating for many years.
I also said that I would try to work with her @ $1800. And even at $1500, that's a 30 percent margin, which in any business is fantastic
"She wants a cake to feed maybe 150 or so as her display and then the rest can be sheet cakes. Ok.
I made a sketch of my idea for the display cake and the small gluten free cake. The display cake will be round cakes, will feed almost 250, "
why would you make a more elaborate display cake for 250 when she clearly said just to feed 150?
Denise - cake to feed 400 people @ $3.75 per person = $1500.00
She is getting a fantastic deal
I hope this doesn't turn into another .............."i want these cakes but geeeeee, i can't afford it - what can YOU DO Denise to LOWER the price for ME?
Instead of her thinking - hmmmm, perhaps i better re think what i want into ..............what can i afford?
Bluehue.
Yup, what she said!
My suggestion would be to skip the tree stump cake (and the birds, which would take a while to make) and make the gluten free cake as the top tier in the display cake. A 3D cake (which I'm guessing the tree stump would be) takes more time. Then you could cut down on the servings of the regular cake and add them to the kitchen cakes.
She could easily cut off the use of fondant for the kitchen cakes. Don't most people peel it off anyway? I doubt guests will be upset if they are served a cake that is identical in layers of cake and filling and flavors! (except the fondant covering)
Good luck.
Oh, one more question. Do you have to pay an hourly fee to use the commercial kitchen?
Okay, let me reframe the issue here. You are all making emotional decisions, not good business decisions. My little cake store will hit a million dollars in revenue this year. There are four pastry chefs and myself. So we each make about $5000 a week worth of cakes. I have made cakes for Vera Wang, John Grisham, Martha Stewart and Michelle Obama this year alone. I have some idea how to run a successful business.
You're not the Cake Boss. There just aren't that many people who are going to walk across your doorstep with $1500 to $2000 to hand you. I would do everything I could in the way of counter offers to close that deal. It's straight up stupid in this economy not to. To judge your brides decision making process is counter productive. If she wants you to make her cake, she'll be a little flexible. If you're a little flexible, everyone goes away happy. If you're not, she goes away happy ( because she will for sure find someone who will make her cake) and you go away broke.
yeah they complain about the price, but want a fabulous, great tasting beautiful cake.....you feel bad, so you come down on your price and then they tell you about how they are only paying the caterer 11-12 per person for tossed salad, baked chicken (always dry), whippen potatoes, green beans and a roll......i live in a small midwest town, double or triple that catereing price for most of you......how come you don't hear people ask the caterer to do the meal cheaper?
To judge your brides decision making process is counter productive.
EXACTLY right! I can't believe the number of responses that are focusing on the "teacher's salary" (because frankly it's none of our business as bakers/decorators what anyone's salary is or isn't) and "whether or not they should or shouldn't invite 400 guests to their wedding."
When someone approaches me for a cake one of the first questions I ask them is "what's your budget?" NOT "how much do you make a year?"
Ridiculous!
Once you know this bride's budget, you'll be able to determine whether or not you're able to work with her. From my experience, you can usually get them to up their budget a bit once you begin talking about size/design.
If this lady's wedding is next month, she doesn't have many options at this point. Not many bakers will be able to take on a cake for 400 people with such short notice, so be sure to use that as a sales pitch if you really want this order.
Good luck!
There just aren't that many people who are going to walk across your doorstep with $1500 to $2000 to hand you. I would do everything I could in the way of counter offers to close that deal. It's straight up stupid in this economy not to. To judge your brides decision making process is counter productive. If she wants you to make her cake, she'll be a little flexible. If you're a little flexible, everyone goes away happy. If you're not, she goes away happy ( because she will for sure find someone who will make her cake) and you go away broke.
Good point...I had a ginormous cake recently and the bride knew that it was going to be way more than the number of guests she had, so the guest count wasn't even an issue for her. She just wanted an awesome cake. I worked with her and did dummy cakes on a couple of tiers to get it down to the $2000 range as opposed to something more expensive, and she was happy with having the options. I wasn't going to let the opportunity to make a $2000 cake pass me by, and I got to make a S#$load of flowers for it, which I actually enjoy doing, so everyone was happy. If I could do one cake like that instead of two or three every week my Saturdays would be a lot simpler in terms of delivery and setups, too.
And...if the wedding is only 4 weeks away, and you still haven't filled that weekend with orders, this may be your last shot to make ANY money that weekend. A bird in the hand etc...
Not sure if anyone has addressed it specifically, but you also need to factor in the extra expense and effort of the gluten-free cake. I bake GF for my son, and let me tell ya, it ain't cheap. I've paid $35 for a 5lb bag of blanched almond flour. What she can afford is unimportant...that's for her to work out.
When I walk into Banana Republic and see a cute skirt that I'd love to have and look at the $155 price tag, I promise you the salesperson isn't thinking of how they can drop the price to get me into that skirt for less money. Charge what you charge, be fair, but be firm.
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