Well, first of all my agreement to the original comment about using the number three and odd numbers as a design concept, well it was just a statement that this is a design rule in interior decorating etc. For example you can have 8 flowers or objects but placing them in groups so as to have them appear as an odd number of articles is an interior decorating rule of thumb because odd numbers or groupings are generally perceived as more pleasing to the eye. That is pretty standard.
I think when people truly want a critique and say so, then you are given an open door to do so in a positive and constructive manner. But posting a picture of a cake is not an invitation to any form of critique, it isn't here and it isn't on the Wilton forum or a lot of other sites either.
I remember well, a new decorator on the Wilton site who posted a picture of a cake and asked for constructive criticism or any pointers from which she might improve. Well the darn cake was perfect, outstanding, amazing, the only thing wrong was that it was displayed on a wrinkly aluminum foil covered board. So I had told her that if she took that cake and put it on a nicely covered board, it looked like a designer cake and could easily command the prices that Colette Peters and others can. I made a few suggestions on what kinds of boards or bases she could use, how she could cover them etc. Well all hell broke loose because she was offended. So you see, even when someone asks for constructive criticism, they may not want to hear it at all.
So the poster has to be honest and the reader has to realize that unless asked, a critique is not welcomed or may not be welcomed.
Yes some may learn by being informed of methods that will improve or correct issues, but others may just be hurt by this information. You really have to try and figure out why they are posting a picture.
And I don't say "Good job" or anything else positive unless I really mean it, so it isn't just meaningless words. I have yet to see a cake on this site that wasn't worthy of positive comments.
If someone comments that their borders always look lopsided or off and how can they correct that, I would post some suggestions. But if someone posts a cake with lopsided borders and doesn't mention that issue, I would not pass on that information to them. Chances are, when they want to know, they will ask. They just might not be ready for that at this point in time.
And sorry, but I don't believe that there will not be a least a couple of really negative comments that cannot be construed as being helpful but hurtful because I have read the posts on this site for a long time. There are a few people that go out of their way to make a mean dig at others for absolutely no purpose than other to be hurtful or mean and they think by adding a "lol", that the reader is too stupid to get the message.
There will always be those that celebrate, cry, laugh, and get angry with you and understand the true meaning of empathy and those who will look for any excuse to be mean.
Not everyone is on the site to learn or make a business, some do this for fun or a hobby and some just want to share and chat and be friendly, some people are confined to their homes or ill and a lot of folks are lonely.
Hugs Squirrelly

Squirrelly, you said it all~ I agree!!

You bring up points that I didn't think about. Thank you once again - you are such a valuable resource Squirrelly. I am here because I want to learn. I really don't want a "that's pretty" or "nice flowers" every cake I post. I don't post many for that reason.....I was hoping to have a place where I could post a picture and get some constructive comments on. I didn't think about what all could happen, and I see why there isn't a section like that now. I have only posted the ones that I felt were a challenge for me at the time because I wanted to know what others thought of them. I guess I will just continue to do that......just wish there was a way to get more "learning" from it.

I am in agreement with Squirrelly.


ps. . . . 3 flowers or 4 flowers . .. I'm just happy if my flowers turn out.

I'm thinking back to several months ago when the star rating option (the same one we now use in the contest voting) was removed from all the photos in the gallery. If I remember correctly, and I may be not totally accurate, but I think that was done because some people gave really low ratings on some of the cakes, and even that was hurtful to some!

Offering criticism, critiques, suggestions of any kind are probably to be undertaken at your own risk even when they are specifically asked for.

Some people are even unhappy when they don't get a comment, much less if they get criticism.

IMHO Janice

Thanks ladies....I guess it will be "ask at your own risk!!" I hope I don't come across as a smart alec....I really don't mean to.

I'm sorry if anyone was offended by this topic. I did not point out specific cakes for just that reason. I also went back and edited the basketweave/crumbcoat comment I initially made to remove the helpful criticism and make it a good job comment.

Lovabledes - it was not one of your cakes I was referring to. I was just browsing the gallery, so I don't know whose cakes I was talking about.

I think we have had enough of this topic. Comment if you dare. Personally, I plan to refrain from making comments.

Thank you to everyone for this lively conversation!

I like the idea of doing the area dedicated to feedback. However, if you see a common error, why not start a new topic on it? Such as the odd number of flowers. I've seen here many people don't know that and I think it would be nice to start a topic on it so those who aren't reading this topic can see. Just start topic as a pointer. Don't point out any specific cake or anything (or even wait a few days if you want). I know there have been a few topics on taking good pictures of your cakes. Someone may have seen some not-so-good photographs and made them think of it, but it wasn't ever pointed out that it was in regards to any specific cake. There are so many great ideas and ways to help others, but it's hard to critique those we don't "know" and are only writing back and forth. Posting tips shouldn't offend anyone, especially if you don't mention anyone!


Just my 2 cents

Kelly

Wow. It looks as though were about 50/50 on this issue. Some welcome criticism and some would be hurt by it.

It seems to me that anyone who is looking for constructive criticism and advice on their cakes asks for it in a thread or in the description under their picture. At least thats the impression Ive received after 6 or 7 months of visiting this site often. I personally think the dedicated forum where people go specifically for criticism is a great idea. But its not absolutely necessary. Anyone who wants criticism will continue to ask for it if they so choose. It seems very offensive to me that anyone would write a negative comment it would look better if you did this in the photo gallery under someones picture. It just doesnt seem like the appropriate place. And even though some of us want advice and ideas on improvement, it would be impossible to remember who welcomes it and who might be offended. I dont post my pictures get my ego stroked as someone put it, but I dont necessarily want someone to tell me everything I did wrong. Im quite good at picking out my flaws and Im very observant. When I look at other peoples cakes, I can immediately see what they did that makes their cakes so much better than mine. That alone helps me to know what I need to do differently next time. I just think that if someone doesnt have a clue what theyre doing wrong (or feel theyre doing wrong) they will ask for assistance. Asking for advice or help is one area that no one on here seems to be shy about. I dont feel that any CC member sets out to be malicious, but written words arent always interpreted the way they would be if they were spoken.

Squirrellys tale (pun intended) about her suggestion of the change of cake board on the Wilton site is a perfect example of why its so important to be careful of what you say to whom, even when they are asking for advice. From what I've read from Squirrelly, I can't imagine it was put any way other than nicely and the person was still offended. Even if you give an honest opinion put nicely, some people are still easily upset.

I also dont agree that a PM is the way to go either. You could still offend someone by surprising them with a PM saying your cake could be better if you. I think a general thread saying Tips on creating a great basketweave (sorry, lack of a better example, Ive never done a basketweave so I would welcome this thread any day) and then giving the how-tos, would be the least offensive and would avoid creating any tension. Other people reading would learn new ideas or add their own. I think it would be received better by most members, but thats just me.

Signing off,
Respectfully Disagreeable in Maine.

I agree with most here... Saying nice job! etc is the norm, but the gallery isn't the place for being critical on the cake....pm the person if they want it to be critiqued ...if not....Nice job...or Keep up the good work., will do IMO.

Do you think this is an age thing like IHATEFONDANT mentioned? I am not old, but I am old to the net. Remember when there was no WWW and everything was just message boards? Before the great AOL invasion, the net was not a place for the faint of heart. People laughed at anyone who fell for "flame bait" and let anonymous people on line anger/hurt you. So, it is very hard for me to imagine someone crying and throwing out her baking pans just b/c of a comment online.

I like the idea of a specific forum for constructive criticism. We could call it "If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen." Of course, the forum would be for constructive criticism and anyone who was just plain mean would be forced to eat Wilton fondant.

I'm certainly not faint of heart by any means. I'm always telling people that I'm a truck driver's daughter and married to a carpenter so there's little I haven't heard and probably said at one time or another. And I'm very good at speaking up for myself, but to have someone tear apart a cake that I'm proud of would be offensive. It's one of the few talents I have, even though I'm not nearly as talented as many of the other people on here. It would upset me to have someone I idolize (there are many on here) say something negative about every cake I post. I would make me angry but it wouldn't cause me to throw out my pans. It would likely stop me from coming back to this site. And that would be too bad because I really enjoy everything on Cake Central. I'm already leery of posting any more pictures because of a thread from a while back. I don't want to become so discouraged that I choose not to return. Asking for advice and criticism is one thing. To have it given unsolicited is an entirely different thing.

I think every cake on this site deserves kudos. Even though one may not be the picture of perfection, it helps me learn. The picture may allow me to remember to do, or not to do, this or that.

Also, what about those who have mastered perfection, then someone suggests a different color or accent. Woud that be constructive criticism, or just a personal opinion?

I'm a nebie to cake making haven't even baked my first one yet. I do post a comment on the ones I think are jsut killer! and the ones I happen to like. In no way am I even close to making a "you can do better" post on there cakes. I honesty don't think I would if I did have the experience, there showing off there cakes, cupcakes baked products and if they needed help or suggestions I would think they would say something.

Doug,

AMEN !!!

This thread is a perfect example of why many of us prefer watch what we say. Comments and suggestions as well as simple questions spiral out of control fast because we all have differing opinions. For me to impose mine on all of you is just wrong. If a thread requesting opinions is generated, I will probably look at it and add to it if I feel that I have anything useful to contribute. Whether or not I am an motional 4 yr old in an adult body, I choose NOT to disrespect any other decorator by giving unsolicited advice that could in any way be misconstrued or hurtful. I don't understand why anyone would want to.

If my child came to me, even as an adult and said "Mom, see what I made" I would NEVER pick out his flaws. I wouldn't do that to anyone. If he asked me how he could improve, I would then offer suggestions, but not until he made it clear to me that he wanted to hear what I had to say. Obviously most of us are adults, but I try to treat everyone with the respect and courtesy that I desire to be treated with myself.

How about making it an area that you have to have pre-authorized permission to be in? It could be made available only to those who WANT to use it. (thus not open to the general public to "view") If you have to sign in to go in there, it could be monitored easily and anyone who is being truely mean sprited can be booted (or made to eat Wilton fondant)

Rvallee, I suspect Doug is referring to the tendancy these days of how we treat our children and using it as a referrance point based on his experience. I could be wrong, but I think what he is saying is we often encourage our children and sometimes when they are adults, it can backfire. I will use an example of a cousin's child. When he was little she had him enrolled in sports for fun and exercise and he always said he would play in the N.H. L. Well as he grew up, he made no effort in school but always felt it didn't matter because one day he would be a rich hockey player. The trouble is, at 16, well he hadn't been approached by any level or team where there really was any hope of his childhood dream taking place, because he just simply didn't have the talent. But instead of trying to steer him elsewhere, my cousin kept encouraging his dream because she knew that was what he wanted, not because he shone in that area. So she wasn't really doing him any favours. I think it has become popular to treat our children this way and they come into adulthood with unrealistic expectations and either end up with an attitude or chip on their shoulder, or are in for a rude awakening. Not everyone is brilliant or athletic or artistic or shines in the field they would like to, that is just reality. So my interpretation of Doug's words is that when people ask for healthy critiques, they should be able to handle them as an adult. And on that point, I agree and actually I think you do too. But unsolicited remarks are not necessary as you have pointed out.
I don't think he meant to suggest that if people couldn't handle unsollicited criticism, they needed to grow up, at least that isn't how I took it.
Hugs Squirrelly

Kudos to Doug for a great post.

I don't think anyone here is suggesting that photos be inundated with unsolicited negative comments. I know I certainly wasn't.

In my first post I asked those who aren't serious about decorating to stop reading..same with this one.

We have different categories of decorators on this site.

Those that want to decorate for friends and family....and those that want to make a living or a second income.

If you are in this for the money, as I said before, grow a thick layer of skin.

When people order things from you they have expectations..if they don't get what they feel they deserve you will hear about it and they won't care about your delicate feelings. They will also make sure that anyone within earshot will know about their "bad" experience.

My suggestion was to use this site to learn. In order to learn your work MUST be critiqued. You can measure the comments you get by who makes them and judge them accordingly.

I'm with Doug when it comes to the "teaching" part of it. If every teacher on earth said "Great job" for mediocre work why would anyone strive for improvement??

If decorators are serious about their craft they will have to take some lumps to get where they want to be.

I agree that there should be a forum where adult discussion can take place between people who want to learn and improve their skills. This forum is FREE, take advantage of it.

I'm betting that you will find having your feelings injured in this forum will sit much better than having a customer lay you out for subpar work.

How anyone raises their children is not my business, although I do agree your sousin's son is in for a rude surprise. But that is my point, we are all different in our views of things. I don't want to offend anyone and I don't want to have negative feelings about this website. I would stop coming back or at the very least, posting my pictures if I expected to encounter negativity every time I did. I do the best I can for my ability right now. I hope it improves the more I do. My history of cake decorating has shown me that it will. But to go on and read the comments of my cake and having it say "your cake would be nicer looking if you had 7 flowers instead of 6" would take me by surprise and leave me feeling, well, unhappy. Everyone has always been very encouraging and welcoming but lately this site is changing (or maybe it's just me that is changing??). I've noticed that in the short time I've been visiting here. I haven't been coming here nearly as long as others but I always felt a very positive vibe from everyone here until recently.

Getting back to the issue at hand, I still feel that feedback should be requested before being given. If they ask for it and still leave feeling dejected, well at least next time they will know what to expect. I was in no way saying it shouldn't be given if requested. Just that it's awfully presumputous for anyone to assume that their way is better and to thrust it onto an unsuspecting member.

****See my idea above******....that is what I would like to have from the site, those who know more than I do to help me learn to be better.

How come it seems when we start getting a little "serious" people all of the sudden think that we aren't nice anymore?

I would like for the people to tell me the real truth then to sugar coat my work , Its helps for the next time I make a cake I will learn from mistakes and comments,