Sweetsweetcreations - YES, YES, YES to everything you said, you took it right out of my own head!!! And to top it off? I peeked at your galleries and realized I pm'd you last week about your awesome cakes! I'd say you already know what the hell you're doing
Thank you, I still have so much to learn(i found out quickly after I joined here) and I am gonna kiss up to Edna man she is popular every post I read has something nice to say about her and sooooo talented.
If you are just starting out it can be hard to think about charging $2 and up for a serving of cake. You feel like you have no idea what you are doing (been there) and that NO ONE would ever want to pay that much for your cakes (been there too). But there is no profession out there where the newbies work for less than minimum wage. People who are just getting into this are in the same mindset as customers. They see a cake as a pile of ingredients that cost a fraction of the total cost of a cake. It's hard to get past seeing a cake as a couple mixes and some icing sugar. But what you are selling is SO much more than ingredients. You are selling your services. The service of shopping for ingredients... of bringing them home... of cleaning your house and cleaning some more... of mixing those ingredients and baking them... of mixing your fillings and icings... of leveling and maybe torting said cakes and filling them with those fillings and icing you made... of icing and decorating said cake... and of cleaning up the mess you made in your kitchen. You are providing this service because someone either can't or just plain doesn't want to deal with the laundry list of things involved in making a cake. You are providing this service while taking time away from your family. Pricing a cake is so much more than getting reimbursed for the ingredients... so much more.
I don't say these things out of anger... not at all. It's because I have been where you are. Thinking why the hell would anyone want to buy a cake from me for $2/serving when they can do it themselves for so much less. But then you get to thinking about it and it doesn't seem all that crazy.
So by all means... if you are uncomfortable thinking of yourself as a valuable commodity because you are new, feel free to discount your work. But let people know that they are getting a steal. Put the price of you cake on an invoice... the FULL price and show them their discount. Say you are trying to build up your skills and your portfolio so you are offering a discount so you can gain experience and that your prices will be going up in the future. Get them hooked on your cakes and get them used to the idea of seeing your full prices and appreciating the savings. And if you are never going to do this as a business, and you are charging your friends and family just to cover costs then that is fine. No one will think badly of you for making cakes for your friends and family. Just don't branch out into the general public until you are legal to do so to cover your own a$$, and don't be afraid to think of what you do as worth being well compensated for.
Omg! I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooo sorry I even asked! And I think this has gotten out of hand. I simply wanted to know from some other people like me, who are not running a business what they are charging. I have surveyed people around me and $2.00 a serving makes eyes bug out.
Just to let you know, the angst and aggression in response to my query have made the decision for me. I shall not charge at all, it is ruining my fun. Let them reimburse my supply costs and tip me if they so choose, but I will only do cakes based out of love.
I have never encountered anything like this on this site. Wow, you guys can be pretty tightly wound. Hope I don't tick you off again in the future. Sorry for that.
Great make your decision however you want.
These are all legitimate well thougth out answers and points of interest along the way.
Hey, just because we all don't do everything the same is not cause to consider attitudes to be anything but professional.
There are many facets to price fixing (which is illegal)
The following quote is from here
"A majority of states have also enacted a "Below-Sales-Cost" law wherein businesses may not sell goods below cost if they do so with anti-competitive intent or effect."
How 'bout them apples.
key phase being "below cost". Sounds like this law is dealing with the loss-leader practice heralded by many appliance stores 'n such.
Yes. And it's food for thought for all of us thinking there's no one else on the planet who is affected by their business decision. Add in the cost of paper towels, hot water, utilities, gasoline for the car not to mention business insurance and an hourly rate of pay and what do you have?
You put your right hand in,
You put your right hand out,
You put your right hand in,
And you shake it all about,
You do the hokey pokey
and you turn yourself around
That what it's all about.
Wow - fingers have been busy whilst i was sleeping - just woke up and there were five pages to read -
The Sun is shinning and all is well in the Bluehue household.
Hope wherever you are and what ever you are cake creating, it becomes a masterpiece.
To whom ever said (sorry forgot posters name) *i might be upset* - naaaa, it takes more than a written word on a forum to get this lady upset - i just say *it* as i see it.
Perhaps my bluntness has casused skirts to fluff up.
Ok - time for my morning coffee - and then start the ironing.
Cake free day for me today ........... wish i could say the same about the ironing -
Bluehue
I'm really glad because I did not see the insinuations that had been discussed earlier. I was just going "Wha-aat?" Maybe it's your accent
I'm glad you are cool.
But what you are selling is SO much more than ingredients. You are selling your services.
Agree. Try buying a car for "the cost of parts plus a little extra to put in your pocket."
I've told people, "Heck I'll DONATE the cost of the ingredients! But you're still paying for my time and talent."
If a cake was just "ingredients", then send them to walmart, aisle 8, and they can knock themselves out. But the first thing they'll say is "But I don't know how to do that!"
DUH!!!!!!!!!!!! That's why you are paying me for my expertise and talent!
Same thing with catering. Yes, duh, you CAN buy the food cheaper than what I'm selling it for. But you're not buying THE FOOD!! You're buying my time to cook it, pack it up, transport it, set it up, take care of the buffet while you're dancing and having fun, tear it down, haul it back and clean it up. The FOOD is the cheapest part of the equation!
This applies to every industry ... plumbers, lawyers, accountants, waitressing, car mechanics. Everyone complains because the car repair bill is more in labor than it is in parts. Again .... DUH!!!!!! Go to Autozone and buy the transmission yourself and install it then. Oh? you don't know how to rebuild or install a transmission? Which is why you are so willing to pay the mechanic for their expertise.
And I also didn't see anyone on here get mad (Unless it was the ones who asked a question and just didn't like the answer ... which is a common phenomenon.)
If you are ok with just getting your cost covered & a tool out the deal knock yourself out. But for those who make cakes and charge their cost and labor to survive & pay bills, how do you even think to ask why not charge $2.00. How are we going to survive off charging $2.00 a serving. You really think thats fair to us? Prcining varies area to area, you do what you want, but it may be unfair to those who do this for an actual living, unlike you, who does this as a hobby. I hope I'm not coming off as beating you up, (cause I'm not trying too), but with the controversial subjects that have been coming across the pass couple of days, and you obviously knowing how people feel about low balling on pricing, it seems your trying to stir up the mixing bowl to me.
When did I ever even imply that anyone doing this for a living should not charge what ever they want to? I am talking about me, how I should proceed. And you talk about "controversial subjects" coming across, I am not a daily reader of the forum so I have no idea what you all have discussed recently. I did try to find some other pricing threads, but nothing I could find was helping me. Frankly most of the response received wasn't very helpful either.
Luv2 I do see where you are coming from. And perhaps you fell like your question has not been adequately answered because you are not getting the responses you wanted?
It is because some people do pay all the overhead to do this legally that there is this grey area. One cannot really divorce one group formt he other. We both mostly peacefully co-exist.
Hey guess what--and all this I'm saying in a conversational tone--no angst no aggression (however entrepreneurs who have risked so much to go into business are assertive--that's the only way they can continue to exist kwim) But umm, and I'm not saying this for the purpose of adding fuel to the fire you think is there--but truly four non-licensed cakers in my area were turned in by some mean licensed cakers who promptly went out of business themselves (probably because they turned in ther own cousin--oopsie--family reunion much?)
So on one hand it's little league, just me & my cakes--on the other hand it's big league too even for the little leaguers.
So we have all been explaining and relating and discussing and debating this issue.
I know I recently wrote that $2 a serving give or take is about as low as I feel someone can go for tiered cake and I stand by that statement. It depends on two things I think, your self esteem and your area. It does not depend on your circle of acquaintances and your ability to buy your own services. That's what I think.
If this helps with some perspective...
just visit an upscale tile supply store. Beautiful displays, beautiful tiles.
You can hire one of their staff to do a professional job for you. You get a quote -- the tiles themselves are a small part of the installation cost. You ask if you can do it yourself -- sure! You'll get lots of friendly help from the tile staff -- how to do it yourself...in your own home.
OK -- so you did your bathroom. It looks great. Now -- try going back to the tile store, and casually mention that you are doing "tiling" as a side job now, and that you charge maybe $20 in labor to do a room.
I don't think the tile store folks will be so pleased to see you this time.
See the difference?
CC people are generally friendly and glad to help -- but please don't take the bread (cake) out of their family's mouths.
Ok so I have a long background in caking and before the internet cake message board was born I sold cakes from my home to friends as well as worked pro in shops. I've done a lot of stuff--opened several businesses blablabla.
So now I have an opportunity to be legal working out of the church where I manage a bookstore.
All these consults are from word of mouth--not advertising yet until later this summer due to other other responsibilities.
So I get bride #1 wants designer cake for ding dong price. Almost huffs out of the consult. <word word word word>
Bride #2 can barely look me in the eye--her mother put her head down on the table during the consult-sleep much? Bride doesn't even brighten up when I ask her fiance's name. 5:00 wedding 6:00 reception heavy hors d'oeurves--can you say 200 starving guests? She asks for a sample-my eyes are still rolling in my head and we go our separate ways. All that to say she was there for free piece of cake--the nerve.
Bride #3!! Yes!!! Score!! met the couple--too sweet--they obviously love each other--planning a nice get together--has a budget for things--certainly looking to minimize cost but willing to pay me for what I can do for them--whooohoooo.
So don't you think for one nano second that I didn't feel the extreme heat to low ball stuff to sweeten the pot? But I could not do that and live with me.
I've literally spent too many sleepless nights doing cakes and hating my own guts to sucker punch meself by selling short despite the 0 and 2 score at that point.
I used to decorate professionally in a shop and do cakes from home--that's two jobs on top of each other because most people party on the weekend.
So they are out there. And $2 give or take a little for tier cake is just simply a starting 2009 price point. But not for my area--I'm in keeping with my area pricing.
Just trying to relate to you.
I'm really glad because I did not see the insinuations that had been discussed earlier. I was just going "Wha-aat?" Maybe it's your accent
........ We colonials don't have accents That was flogged out of us on the Mother Ship when they deported us in chains 200 years ago from Mother England.............. for stealing cake crumbs - ROFL.
I'm glad you are cool.
Thankyou K8 - that is kind of you to say. At the end of the day we will all charge what we think our creations are worth - i just hope that many realise that *their worth* is just as important.
Heaven only knows i am worth big $$$$'s after all the ironing i did today -
But we will step out looking like sharp pins tomorrow -
Bluehue.
I'm really glad because I did not see the insinuations that had been discussed earlier. I was just going "Wha-aat?" Maybe it's your accent
........ We colonials don't have accents That was flogged out of us on the Mother Ship when they deported us in chains 200 years ago from Mother England.............. for stealing cake crumbs - ROFL.
I'm glad you are cool.
Thankyou K8 - that is kind of you to say. At the end of the day we will all charge what we think our creations are worth - i just hope that many realise that *their worth* is just as important.
Heaven only knows i am worth big $$$$'s after all the ironing i did today -
But we will step out looking like sharp pins tomorrow -
Bluehue.
<high five>
If you are ok with just getting your cost covered & a tool out the deal knock yourself out. But for those who make cakes and charge their cost and labor to survive & pay bills, how do you even think to ask why not charge $2.00. How are we going to survive off charging $2.00 a serving. You really think thats fair to us? Prcining varies area to area, you do what you want, but it may be unfair to those who do this for an actual living, unlike you, who does this as a hobby. I hope I'm not coming off as beating you up, (cause I'm not trying too), but with the controversial subjects that have been coming across the pass couple of days, and you obviously knowing how people feel about low balling on pricing, it seems your trying to stir up the mixing bowl to me.
When did I ever even imply that anyone doing this for a living should not charge what ever they want to? I am talking about me, how I should proceed. And you talk about "controversial subjects" coming across, I am not a daily reader of the forum so I have no idea what you all have discussed recently. I did try to find some other pricing threads, but nothing I could find was helping me. Frankly most of the response received wasn't very helpful either.
Sorry to say, Luv...this happens here all the time. People have to chime in with their own 2 cents and take over the thread instead of addressing what the Original Post actually said. You did not imply that people doing this for a living should not charge whatever they want to! Also, there are too many people on this forum who live their daily lives by these forums and expect that everyone else must do the same when if fact, we don't or can't.
Also, I do not think that you are misreading attitude on this particular thread because this subject always gets a little heated once the "big business owners" get involved and yes, I am one of those business owners, it's just that I didn't forget where I came from and I don't look down my nose at others who might do it differently or cheaper than I do.
Tammi
Theres this custom baker (she has a shop) in my area and she charges only $1.50-$2.00 per serving. A friend of mine ordered her wedding cake from her a few months ago...a 4-tier square for 200 people all cake (no dummies) with fondant and she only charged her $400.00. I can't compete with that...i don't think any bakery in my area can compete with that!
She's running a charity huh.
How long's she been in business?
She's been in business a long time but she just got her shop about 5 years ago. She actually had to quit her full time job because she was getting so many orders. Hell with that price i was thinking of getting her to make my wedding cake
I agree with everything jkalman and indydebi posted.
The price you charge should be reflective of your training and skills combined along with the supplies used, miscellaneous expenses and overhead.
If you took or want to take any type of class, whether it was from another decorator or the Wilton classes, remember you had to pay for that class. The price you charge per cake should be reflective of that training that you received.
Some home bakers may not realize it, but they still have overhead expenses. Anytime the gas bill, light bill, water, rent or mortgage is paid, they are all paying their overhead. It may not be as much as a separate bakery, but the expense is still there.
When someone wants something bad enough, they are willing to pay for it. Take Easter for example. Everyone who decided to get a child an Easter basket had two choices. Either make one themselves or buy one pre-made. If everyone wanted to make baskets, there wouldnt be a market for pre-made baskets, which sell pretty well for stores.
If everyone wanted to make cakes, grocery stores or bakeries wouldnt exist. Baking is a skill not everyone has or is willing to learn and Unless you are making sheet cakes with a couple of roses cater-corner to each other, then you should not price your cakes the same as a grocery store.
Theres this custom baker (she has a shop) in my area and she charges only $1.50-$2.00 per serving. A friend of mine ordered her wedding cake from her a few months ago...a 4-tier square for 200 people all cake (no dummies) with fondant and she only charged her $400.00. I can't compete with that...i don't think any bakery in my area can compete with that!
She's running a charity huh.
How long's she been in business?
She's been in business a long time but she just got her shop about 5 years ago. She actually had to quit her full time job because she was getting so many orders. Hell with that price i was thinking of getting her to make my wedding cake
The only way to get over people that charges this low, is with extreme quality of work and styles of cakes that are different and new. Not just ribbon and buttercream. Things that show that you are the best in the business and you are worth the money..
Edna
Oh don't get me wrong guys, I am the first to say that if I didn't do cakes like I do, I would probably never ever be in the market for a cake like mine. I would probably be resigned (grumblingly so) to a bakery or Walmart cake. Nothing wrong with that. There is a market for it, hence the huge volume of cakes that they sell. But I'm not after people in my budget ranges....and I get the people not in my budget ranges...plenty of them.
Sorry to say, Luv...this happens here all the time. People have to chime in with their own 2 cents and take over the thread instead of addressing what the Original Post actually said. You did not imply that people doing this for a living should not charge whatever they want to! Also, there are too many people on this forum who live their daily lives by these forums and expect that everyone else must do the same when if fact, we don't or can't.
Also, I do not think that you are misreading attitude on this particular thread because this subject always gets a little heated once the "big business owners" get involved and yes, I am one of those business owners, it's just that I didn't forget where I came from and I don't look down my nose at others who might do it differently or cheaper than I do.
Tammi
I was never heated. I only thought one post was taken the wrong way.
Remember where I came from? Of course I do--how coudl I forget ~ I'm still here. Did you not see the transparency I related a few posts upthread?
Clearly there are at least two camps in caking, hobbyist's and pros. When a hobbysit starts charging money they are no longer truly a hobbyist. They have definitely crossed a line that is very difficult for us to ignore like it didn't happen.
I do not believe that you can separate the two entities when it comes to money matters. Therein lies the conundrum.
We can't shout that we are not businesses then ask how to operate as a business and cry foul when the answers are in relation to business.
Is it business or is it a hobby. Hobbies don't charge money.
Charging money, accepting money means you are some form of a business no matter how we feel in our heart of hearts.
.........I'm not ashamed to admit that the majority of the cakes I do are standard white or chocolate, two non-torted layers filled with a basic buttercream, and placed on cardboard cake rounds covered with white freezer paper. I rarely cover in fondant, and have never learned to do gumpaste flowers other than the very basics in a Wilton class. I'm NOT putting down my own work - but there IS a niche for the type of cakes I sell - custom designed and much nicer than a chain store, yet not upscale / couture, either.........
This probably has already been addressed but I'm only on pg 4.......jumping into this messy thread to *AGREE* with the above statement.
Txcupcake said:.......Say you and Jeanne live in the same area and y'all decide to work side by side. You each make the same cake, using the same ingredients and decor in the same time frame. Do you think that Jeanne's cake is worth more than yours?.........
No, she stated *if she did the same level of work* as Jeanne she *would* charge as much. However, her work (and for the most part mine also) is not on the same level.
That does need to be taken into consideration. The level of work......mix vs scratch; 'common' flavors vs premium; no or b'cream only fillings vs home-made, cooked, premium fillings; b'cream iced vs fondant and on and on. There is a major difference between Jeanne's and Stacy's ingredients and work. Both are great - just on a different level - so therefore command different pricing levels.
I haven't forgotten where I came from... and I am willing to bet than none of the "big biz" owners have. What we do remember is the inner turmoil and struggle that we went through and the lessons we have learned.
See... the small potatoes (had to think of an opposite for big biz ) operations tend to get really bent out of shape when anyone even thinks about saying think about what you do as it could effect others. No one wants to hear that they are working for next to nothing and possibly hurting the market for cake in their area. Who would want to hear that right? But the truth isn't always what we want to hear.
What the big biz names want the small taters to know is how much work it is... and how that effort is most definitely worth being compensated for. We have a business mind-set... only because we have had all of the same struggles. We can see the intent in other's posts because we know where it comes from... the heart. Honest to goodness. If you sit back... take a breath... and read posts with the thought that they are trying to be helpful rather than thinking they are snide then maybe you can see past the assertive nature of some. We all want to see you get rewarded for the work you do because we know how much goes into it.
No one is saying that cakes must be sold for $x.xx/serving. We are just saying think of everything involved before you pull a price out of the air. See how much you are spending in money and in time and effort vs how much you are being paid. You want to be sure that you are not being taken advantage of.
Baking for family and friends isn't in the same boat as baking for strangers. I woudl think that most biz owners feel the same. You want to make a cake for your sister for free or for cost no big deal. I wouldn't even tell you to get legal for that. You want to make a cake for your neighbor because you are tight with them and want to do something nice... same thing. It's only when you start taking orders from the general public that the low balled pricing starts to effect the biz community. Because no matter how you put it... no matter how many times you say "I am not in business"... the general public is going to look at you like you are in business and that your prices reflect the local average for cake pricing. Hell.. even *I* do free cakes for family and cakes for cost of ingredients for friends (if they will let me... usually they insist on paying more). That's neither here nor there you see?
I have been privy and party to threads regarding this same subject that have gotten legit heated... this one is far from that and it's nice to see.
.......don't even have a small studio or a shop, hence no overhead or employees.......
I'm still way beh8ind in this thread but this statement caught my eye.
YES you DO have overhead....it's the utilities you use. Your bill would not be as high if you didn't use the gas or electric while making these cakes. It's the TIMES away from the family......it's oh so much more.
You DO need to factor those thing in and you are not.
Omg! I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooo sorry I even asked! And I think this has gotten out of hand. I simply wanted to know from some other people like me, who are not running a business what they are charging. I have surveyed people around me and $2.00 a serving makes eyes bug out.
Just to let you know, the angst and aggression in response to my query have made the decision for me. I shall not charge at all, it is ruining my fun. Let them reimburse my supply costs and tip me if they so choose, but I will only do cakes based out of love.
I have never encountered anything like this on this site. Wow, you guys can be pretty tightly wound. Hope I don't tick you off again in the future. Sorry for that.
I think that's a good idea.
Hey! They're not "tightly wound"! They just like a good discussion! It's sooo much fun watching these topics!
...Going back to lurking now....pulling up chair with my popcorn and favorite beverage...
I know it's a little early to be drinking, but I just found this thread!
Sorry guys, I don't have an actual opinion on the subject cause I can't even BAKE a cake...(no oven!!)....arhhhhhh.
Gail
[quote="indydebi"When I only have the money to buy a Ford, I go to Walmart. When I have more money or want to have that really special unique car, I'll buy a Cadillac.[/quote]
And if people would charge what their cakes are worth and don't underprice them they'll eventually have enough money to buy a Cadillac.
Clearly there are at least two camps in caking, hobbyist's and pros. When a hobbysit starts charging money they are no longer truly a hobbyist. They have definitely crossed a line that is very difficult for us to ignore like it didn't happen.
I do not believe that you can separate the two entities when it comes to money matters. Therein lies the conundrum.
We can't shout that we are not businesses then ask how to operate as a business and cry foul when the answers are in relation to business.
Is it business or is it a hobby. Hobbies don't charge money.
Charging money, accepting money means you are some form of a business no matter how we feel in our heart of hearts.
K8, I agree with you, but I just want to throw in, I created a "home & hobby matrix" based on the professional matrix by Alice Keeler specifically to help people determine what their cost is for decorating. I teach Wilton classes here in town (Im your neighbor!) and am always asked by students what their cakes are worth. I always tell them about licensing, who to contact for the State of Tennessee, Dept. of Agriculture and the HD website, but I also tell them about Cake Central so they can start to look at how others are doing things.
Hobbyists have to take the leap at some point to make cakes they plan to sell in the future. Hopefully its "plan". But still, some people who just completed a few Wilton courses will eventually want to sell cakes. Those are the kind of people the "Home and Hobby" matrix was made for.
Basically what I am saying is, I agree with you. I just think that in addition, hobbyists need a starting point to figure out what they are spending to create that 3-tier-cake for their cousin's wedding. I think CC is a GREAT resource for hobbyists as well as the professionals. I just think we need to cut the hobbyists a little slack like jkalman said when he said "I've been there too".
So... hobbyists, hang in there and 1) don't undercut the going rate in your area when you finally do sell cakes 2) don't undercut yourself. Your time and effort needs to be paid.
Those are in no particular order
I haven't forgotten where I came from... and I am willing to bet than none of the "big biz" owners have. What we do remember is the inner turmoil and struggle that we went through and the lessons we have learned.
See... the small potatoes (had to think of an opposite for big biz
) operations tend to get really bent out of shape when anyone even thinks about saying think about what you do as it could effect others. No one wants to hear that they are working for next to nothing and possibly hurting the market for cake in their area. Who would want to hear that right? But the truth isn't always what we want to hear.What the big biz names want the small taters to know is how much work it is... and how that effort is most definitely worth being compensated for. We have a business mind-set... only because we have had all of the same struggles. We can see the intent in other's posts because we know where it comes from... the heart. Honest to goodness. If you sit back... take a breath... and read posts with the thought that they are trying to be helpful rather than thinking they are snide then maybe you can see past the assertive nature of some. We all want to see you get rewarded for the work you do because we know how much goes into it.
No one is saying that cakes must be sold for $x.xx/serving. We are just saying think of everything involved before you pull a price out of the air. See how much you are spending in money and in time and effort vs how much you are being paid. You want to be sure that you are not being taken advantage of.
Baking for family and friends isn't in the same boat as baking for strangers. I woudl think that most biz owners feel the same. You want to make a cake for your sister for free or for cost no big deal. I wouldn't even tell you to get legal for that. You want to make a cake for your neighbor because you are tight with them and want to do something nice... same thing. It's only when you start taking orders from the general public that the low balled pricing starts to effect the biz community. Because no matter how you put it... no matter how many times you say "I am not in business"... the general public is going to look at you like you are in business and that your prices reflect the local average for cake pricing. Hell.. even *I* do free cakes for family and cakes for cost of ingredients for friends (if they will let me... usually they insist on paying more). That's neither here nor there you see?
I have been privy and party to threads regarding this same subject that have gotten legit heated... this one is far from that and it's nice to see.
Couldn't have said it better.
Sorry to say, Luv...this happens here all the time. People have to chime in with their own 2 cents and take over the thread instead of addressing what the Original Post actually said. You did not imply that people doing this for a living should not charge whatever they want to! Also, there are too many people on this forum who live their daily lives by these forums and expect that everyone else must do the same when if fact, we don't or can't.
Also, I do not think that you are misreading attitude on this particular thread because this subject always gets a little heated once the "big business owners" get involved and yes, I am one of those business owners, it's just that I didn't forget where I came from and I don't look down my nose at others who might do it differently or cheaper than I do.
The CC forums are for discussions and healthy debates. Everyone has a right to post their opinions and have civil discussions. Business owners, whether small or big, have a right to participate in this type of discussion as anyone else. This forum isn't exlusive to home bakers or small busines owners. And I'm not a "big business" ower. I would consider myself a small business owner trying to make a living. Bottom line is if you don't want differing opinions or to participate in some good discussions, then you shouldn't post a topic for discussion. Not being mean, angry, or offensive. I feel this needs to put into perspective. There is no need to take other people's comments and advice so personal and serious. Take away from the discussion what you think is of value and disregard the rest. It's pretty simple.
Edited to correct spelling typo.
...
Is it business or is it a hobby. Hobbies don't charge money.
Charging money, accepting money means you are some form of a business no matter how we feel in our heart of hearts.
from: http://www.bankrate.com/finance/money-guides/turning-hobby-into-business-means-tax-breaks.aspx
"The IRS defines a hobby as an activity you pursue without expecting to make a taxable profit. Basically, you do it because you like it, regardless of the cost.
[[So a hobbyist can make money, they just can't make a taxable profit for three years out of five. ]]
Be aware, however, when your hobby produces income, you owe tax on it.
You can reduce your taxable hobby income by deducting your hobby expenses, but this tax break is limited. You can only deduct expenses up to the amount of money you make on the hobby. Even then, hobby expenses, along with other miscellaneous expenses you itemize on Schedule A, must come to more than 2 percent of your adjusted gross income before you can deduct them. "
Also... It is easy to become a business in the eyes of the IRS, but it is much more difficult (and expensive) to become a legal food service provider in your state.
K8, I agree with you, but I just want to throw in, I created a "home & hobby matrix" based on the professional matrix by Alice Keeler specifically to help people determine what their cost is for decorating. I teach Wilton classes here in town (Im your neighbor!) and am always asked by students what their cakes are worth. I always tell them about licensing, who to contact for the State of Tennessee, Dept. of Agriculture and the HD website, but I also tell them about Cake Central so they can start to look at how others are doing things.
Hobbyists have to take the leap at some point to make cakes they plan to sell in the future. Hopefully its "plan". But still, some people who just completed a few Wilton courses will eventually want to sell cakes. Those are the kind of people the "Home and Hobby" matrix was made for.
Basically what I am saying is, I agree with you. I just think that in addition, hobbyists need a starting point to figure out what they are spending to create that 3-tier-cake for their cousin's wedding. I think CC is a GREAT resource for hobbyists as well as the professionals. I just think we need to cut the hobbyists a little slack like jkalman said when he said "I've been there too".
Hey--as you know no one can do this legally in our county. Do you come to the cake club meetings?
I've been saying two dollars a serving give or take for tier cake as a place to start. Less than that is working for cost of ingredients just about. This ain't rocket science.
edited to fix a typo
Theres this custom baker (she has a shop) in my area and she charges only $1.50-$2.00 per serving. A friend of mine ordered her wedding cake from her a few months ago...a 4-tier square for 200 people all cake (no dummies) with fondant and she only charged her $400.00. I can't compete with that...i don't think any bakery in my area can compete with that!
She's running a charity huh.
How long's she been in business?
She's been in business a long time but she just got her shop about 5 years ago. She actually had to quit her full time job because she was getting so many orders. Hell with that price i was thinking of getting her to make my wedding cake
The only way to get over people that charges this low, is with extreme quality of work and styles of cakes that are different and new. Not just ribbon and buttercream. Things that show that you are the best in the business and you are worth the money..
Edna
If you are just starting out it can be hard to think about charging $2 and up for a serving of cake. You feel like you have no idea what you are doing (been there) and that NO ONE would ever want to pay that much for your cakes (been there too). But there is no profession out there where the newbies work for less than minimum wage. People who are just getting into this are in the same mindset as customers. They see a cake as a pile of ingredients that cost a fraction of the total cost of a cake. It's hard to get past seeing a cake as a couple mixes and some icing sugar. But what you are selling is SO much more than ingredients. You are selling your services. The service of shopping for ingredients... of bringing them home... of cleaning your house and cleaning some more... of mixing those ingredients and baking them... of mixing your fillings and icings... of leveling and maybe torting said cakes and filling them with those fillings and icing you made... of icing and decorating said cake... and of cleaning up the mess you made in your kitchen. You are providing this service because someone either can't or just plain doesn't want to deal with the laundry list of things involved in making a cake. You are providing this service while taking time away from your family. Pricing a cake is so much more than getting reimbursed for the ingredients... so much more.
I don't say these things out of anger... not at all. It's because I have been where you are. Thinking why the hell would anyone want to buy a cake from me for $2/serving when they can do it themselves for so much less. But then you get to thinking about it and it doesn't seem all that crazy.
So by all means... if you are uncomfortable thinking of yourself as a valuable commodity because you are new, feel free to discount your work. But let people know that they are getting a steal. Put the price of you cake on an invoice... the FULL price and show them their discount. Say you are trying to build up your skills and your portfolio so you are offering a discount so you can gain experience and that your prices will be going up in the future. Get them hooked on your cakes and get them used to the idea of seeing your full prices and appreciating the savings. And if you are never going to do this as a business, and you are charging your friends and family just to cover costs then that is fine. No one will think badly of you for making cakes for your friends and family. Just don't branch out into the general public until you are legal to do so to cover your own a$$, and don't be afraid to think of what you do as worth being well compensated for.
THAT was a great answer (at least to my question - and I think it definitely pertains to OP too!)! Thanks for your insight! I've taken away a lot to think about from this thread.
I appreciate the graceful and non-condescending way your answer was stated, too. I love getting well stated replies on forums - that way I can focus on the person's point, and take something new away from it , instead of just feeling small, naive, or berated 
.
Omg! I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooo sorry I even asked! And I think this has gotten out of hand. I simply wanted to know from some other people like me, who are not running a business what they are charging. I have surveyed people around me and $2.00 a serving makes eyes bug out.
Just to let you know, the angst and aggression in response to my query have made the decision for me. I shall not charge at all, it is ruining my fun. Let them reimburse my supply costs and tip me if they so choose, but I will only do cakes based out of love.
I have never encountered anything like this on this site. Wow, you guys can be pretty tightly wound. Hope I don't tick you off again in the future. Sorry for that.
Y'know what I did? I re-read the thread up to this point and I copied one quote from each post that kind of highlights the care, the quality and the passion involved in responding to your question. Yes a couple of the posts are direct and there is disagreement but other civilly but there's no anger.
This thread is awash with incredible information that a lot of people put a lot of effort in to provide for you so you can have reasonable and credible recommendations with which to fashion your own beliefs based on our legacy to you. You're welcome.
And now I'm gonna shoot real straight so fasten your seat belt. I don't know where the angst or anger was up to this point but here it is for real right now but also in a professional manner.
How dare you dismiss this volume of hard earned advice offered to you for free how dare you dismiss this "in the name of love".
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