Anyone Sub Meringue Powder For Whites In Imbc?
Decorating By krissy_kze Updated 23 Dec 2005 , 12:35am by soygurl
I'm hesitant to try real egg whites because I'd rather not have to refrigerate. I'm paranoid about things going bad when they sit out too long and my cakes can sit out all day on a holiday so people can look them.
Has anyone successfully substituted meringu powder with great results?
Thanks in advance!
-Krissy
That works too! I didn't think about powdered egg whites.
Thanks!
If you want a true Italian Meringue buttercream, you use the real ingredients. Otherwise, it's only meringue buttercream. I can't imagine the flavor or texture would be a good as the real thing... I only use Italian meringue buttercream, and I've never had a problem with it sitting out - outdoor weddings/parties, etc have never been a problem. It does need to be refrigerated after it's decorated because you're also using butter - which is a dairy product and should be refrigerated until you're ready to use it.
That would be my concern is giving a cake to someone with raw egg whites. I found a recipe I think from a different website that uses meringue pwd instead. I can try and dig it up and post it. I wonder, if you did use meringue powder as a substitute, how do you measure it? Is there a formula like: so much powder + wter = 1 egg white?
The meringue powder can says "Can be used as an egg white substitute in baking. 2 tsp. Meringue powder + 2 Tbsp. Water = 1 egg white." The same measurement is used to reconstitute the "Just Whites".
I have not tried using the meringue powder for the icing, but have used the "Just Whites". Just Whites are Pasteurized Dried Egg Whites with nothing added. Meringue Powder is Corn Starch, Egg Whites, Sugar, Gum Arabic, Calcium Sulfate, Citric Acid, Cream of Tartar, Silicon Dioxide and Artificial Flavor.
When you use real eggs in your buttercream, they aren't raw. You are cooking the eggs when you add your sugar (the sugar is cooked between 240 and 250 degrees). FDA says that cooking eggs or egg-containing food products to an internal temperature of at least 160 F (71 C) kills Salmonella bacteria. It is also a good idea to only purchase pasteurized eggs. Pasteurized eggs have been heated sufficiently to kill bacteria, and also may contain an acidifying agent that kills the bacteria.
Well, we're off on this topic again, and as usual, someone thinks there is only one way to do something.
I haven't used meringue powder, but I always use powdered egg whites in my icing and no one yet has said it doesn't taste good. In fact, I am constantly asked for my icing recipe and am told how great it tastes. This, despite the fact that I not only use powdered whites, but I use hi-ratio shortening and no butter. I am considered by pretty much everyone who knows me to be not only a good baker, but a gourmet cook, and a nitpicky perfectionist at that, so I am pretty fussy about what comes out of my kitchen. I'm not in any way saying that anyone else ought to do things my way. But I sure resent being told that what I do is not correct or proper.
Everything I have read says that pouring the 250 degree sugar syrup into your room temperature eggs does not raise the temperature of the eggs to that magic 160 degree temperature. SquirrellyCakes had a long scientific post about it not long ago. While a very small number of eggs in the US supply are said to be contaminated, and while only a small percentage of people will be affected even if they are exposed to them, it still seems reasonable to me to use a safe product when I am feeding anybody other than myself. THAT IS JUST MY OPINION. The fresh eggs that are pasteurized are expensive and I haven't had a lot of luck whipping them to stiff peaks ( although Cook's magazine said recently that it can be done with some degree of success if it is done with persistence.) Therefore, even if I am going to lose some amount of flavour, I will continue to use dried egg white powder. Again, this is just me.
Who says it isn't Italian Meringue Buttercream if it isn't fresh eggs and butter? In my experience the Italian Meringue label refers to the method more than to the exact igredients.
Hey, just thought I'd add one other option... The cheepest as far as I know (I haven't specifically priced just wites or mirangue powder, but I'm guessing they're quite a bit more).
Anyway, its really quite easy to "pasturize" your own regular egg wites. All you have to do is cook them over a double boiler while whisking constantly and quickly. Just use a thermometer to see when they've reached 160 F. It's really quite easy and doesn't take much time at all. Plus safe and cheep.
Yeah they wip fine! This was the only way we did it in the bakery I used to work it. Couldn't afford to risk it... or the extra cost of any of the other options. It works great. You just have to be careful to whisk quickly the whole time, and on the double boiler. and make sure to have a thermometer really handy or attached to the bowl or pan, because if the eggs start to acctually cook, problems happen, but they don't cook if they are constantly moving. its easier than it sounds though.
From the USDA website:
8. Use Safe Egg Recipes
Egg mixtures are safe if they reach 160°F, so homemade ice cream and eggnog can be made safely from a cooked base. Heat the egg-milk mixture gently. Use a food thermometer to check the temperature or use a metal spoon (the mixture should coat the spoon). If in-shell pasteurized eggs are available, they can be used safely in recipes that wont be cooked.
Dry meringue shells are safe. So are divinity candy and 7-minute frosting, made by combining hot sugar syrup with beaten egg whites.
Interesting topic...
My thoughts? 
1. Fresh egg whites give you less volume than old whites but more stability, hence the use in this buttercream, which is to resist warm temperatures...I doubt very much one can attain the integrity with substitues, which as someone mentioned, are good for baking substitutions. But hey if it works for you, use it...
2. About the statement that Italian Meringue BUTTERCREAM is more about method and not ingredients...Well, it seems to be that the instructors and chefs from the reknown Culinary Institute of America are wrong and so are the ones who created it. While it is true that the method makes it different from the Swiss Meringue, these experts emphasize the use of fresh egg whites in the preparation of ALL meringues. I do not see why they would jeapordize the careers of thousands who pass by the institution by drilling in a recipe that will send hundreds to the hospital. And what makes the Italian Meringue a Buttercream is no other than BUTTER and not LARD, which is what Crisco is (and hi-ratio s is lard with an emulsifier). So, if you substitute peaches for apples, will you get an apple pie? 
While I must agree that we all come from different areas in the country, I also think that not everyone has developed a refined palate. To attempt to call a flan a creme brulee is a crime.
Sweet Success to all! 
Well, it seems to be that the instructors and chefs from the reknown Culinary Institute of America are wrong and so are the ones who created it. And what makes the Italian Meringue a Buttercream is no other than BUTTER and not LARD, which is what Crisco is (and hi-ratio s is lard with an emulsifier).
Wow, they must have some weird pigs at the CIA.
Dried egg whites are just that-- egg whites. Nothing extra. Fine for meringue. Meringue powder, like most of Wilton's food products, contains all sorts of flavors and additives and is best suited to make money for Wilton rather than to make good baked goods.
Well, I hesitate to get involved or to post at all but since my name came up on this post I feel that I should.
First of all, I would be the last person to say that anyone who has studied for years and is accredited, knows less than I do, I am a mere home baker. But this has been a topic I have always worried about and always hesitated to use the fresh unpasteurized egg whites in the past few years. While it is also true that we used to use them to make our Royal Icing and not think twice, recent studies have made us cautious. The risk of salmonella poisoning is less than 1% but if you are selling to the general public and are at risk to be sued, this is indeed a big risk.
I have always wondered if pouring the hot sugar syrup over the egg whites was enough to raise the temperature of the egg whites to 160F to kill the salmonella bacteria. Recent studies have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that much of the heat is dissipated in your bowl and so in the studies done, the temperature of the egg whites did not attain this all important temperature of 160F and if indeed the egg whites were contaminated which they can be in a little less than 1% of the cases, whether or not they are washed, fresh, come from a good farm doesn't really matter.
The Culinary Institutes also used to recommend using fresh egg whites to make Royal Icing, because I have old cookbooks from them with these recipes. Many chefs have indeed believed that their meringue buttercreams were attaining this safe temperature and only recently became aware that that is not the case.
I didn't pull this information out of thin air, you can find it if you look into the government information regarding the use of fresh egg whites in both the U.S. and Canadian government information sites. Also many, many professional baking sites including www.baking911.com has this same information.
In many places in both the U.S. and in Canada, it is illegal to make up icings or anything using unpasteurized egg whites.
According to all information that is current, you must make sure the temperture of your egg whites reaches 160F by measuring their temperature with an accurate thermometer when making any of these kinds of icings or substitute powdered egg whites or meringue powder or pasteurized eggs.
There is the same risk for the yolks, obviously because the salmonella bacteria can be within the egg and also on the shell itself if the egg was contaminated. Refrigerating the eggs does not kill salmonella, refrigerating most things only retards further growth of bacteria, only heating the egg to a temperature of 160F. will kill salmonella.
Salted butter is fine at room temperature for 2-3 days even longer according to the dairy institutes because salt preserves butter.
This isn't my opinion, it is fact based on the most recent scientific studies that were undertaken by professionals in the field of bacterial studies and food risks.
Having said that, for my own personal family use, once in awhile I have used raw eggs but nobody outside of my family was exposed to foods made this way. But I too, am re-thinking whether or not this risk it worthwhile and with all of the recent cases of salmonella poisoning I think I will likely discontinue this practice.
Yes, you can pasteurize your own eggs by making certain they reach a temperature of 160F as suggested.
Food safety issues are an ongoing education. You have only to look at the changes in food practices over the last 50 years to see it is ever evolving. German people have for many many years eaten Steak Tartar which is raw red meat and this practice still continues, but there are risks involved. In some countries you can still purchase unpasteurized milk and cream and the risk may well be minimal but it is still there.
I apologize for the length of this post, I know some people find my posts unneccessarily long and boring. And believe me, I do not have a huge ego or think that I am right all of the time but I try to very carefully research any subject like this where there could be health risks involved before posting. So while much of the time we are only voicing an opinion, sometimes, on matters of food safety issues, there is only one truth based on the most current scientific data. I hope I haven't offended anyone.
Hugs Squirrelly
Well, it seems to be that the instructors and chefs from the reknown Culinary Institute of America are wrong and so are the ones who created it. And what makes the Italian Meringue a Buttercream is no other than BUTTER and not LARD, which is what Crisco is (and hi-ratio s is lard with an emulsifier).
Wow, they must have some weird pigs at the CIA.
Dried egg whites are just that-- egg whites. Nothing extra. Fine for meringue. Meringue powder, like most of Wilton's food products, contains all sorts of flavors and additives and is best suited to make money for Wilton rather than to make good baked goods.
Well actually kiddo, lard is made from animal fat and Crisco or shortening are made from vegetable fat. No big deal, just thought I would mention that.
Hugs Squirrelly
Hey Squirrelly----I am always amazed at your "lengthy" posts as you said, but it's so nice to have this information. Alot of people think these things are fine b/c they've never had any problems. I like you, and many others, know that there is a risk and don't want to take the chance. It's almost like when we say "Well back in the day we did it and no one got sick...." well, that's not always the case?! Oh well, to each his own---I know there are plenty of people out there who will use egg whites in whatever they want, and the rest of us will just have to find adequate substitutes or just make something else 
Speaking of that, I knew that you had posted this before and remember reading it---what I don't remember is if you ever said, have you tried IMBC or similiar recipes using the powdered egg whites?? I have recently thought about trying this like everyone else here!
Thanks for the great info as usual! [/i]
Hey Squirrelly----I am always amazed at your "lengthy" posts as you said, but it's so nice to have this information. Alot of people think these things are fine b/c they've never had any problems. I like you, and many others, know that there is a risk and don't want to take the chance. It's almost like when we say "Well back in the day we did it and no one got sick...." well, that's not always the case?! Oh well, to each his own---I know there are plenty of people out there who will use egg whites in whatever they want, and the rest of us will just have to find adequate substitutes or just make something else
Speaking of that, I knew that you had posted this before and remember reading it---what I don't remember is if you ever said, have you tried IMBC or similiar recipes using the powdered egg whites?? I have recently thought about trying this like everyone else here!
Thanks for the great info as usual!
[/i]
Yes, I have used both the powdered pasteurized egg whites and the pasteurized liquid egg whites and they worked well. A bit different texture. There are recipes on the internet for using either, otherwise use the equivalent. You may have to experiment and adjust. I don't make these meringue buttercreams very often anymore, mainly because I don't get a lot of call for them.
Heehee, well the long posts are a running joke on a couple of sites. Funny thing is everytime I make a short post people ask why. I think I got into the habit because I correspond with a lot of beginners and you cannot assume that they know things because it is all new to them so I tend to go into detail.
Hugs Squirrelly
Itsacake, would you be willing to share your recipe for Italian Meringue buttercream made with high ratio shortening. If I remember correctly the reason you did this was so as not to use dairy, correct?
Hugs Squirrelly
I'd be intereseted in that too. My whole reason for this post was to avoid refrigeration. I want to try different "butter"creams to see which one I love to work with. So far I haven't found one I love the taste of.
I think adding crisco to an Italian Meringue is sick and wrong, but you can find the recipe on baking 911.
The egg info is easily found on the USDA website.
Slightly Off topic:
Has anyone here ever checked the temp of their egg whites when making a meringue? I have and yes they do reach 160deg. The egg whites are so thin that they are easily heated. You don't pour 230deg sugar syrup into egg whites and get cold egg whites. Recipes vary in what temp to bring the sugar syrup that may be why some study showed the egg whites didn't reach the proper temp or maybe the study was just plain skewed.
My egg yolk mixtures are harder to heat. The sugar syrup needs to be higher than the recipe temp or I've cooked the sugar and yolks together for a minute to make sure the temp reached 160.
I think adding crisco to an Italian Meringue is sick and wrong, but you can find the recipe on baking 911.
The egg info is easily found on the USDA website.
Slightly Off topic:
Has anyone here ever checked the temp of their egg whites when making a meringue? I have and yes they do reach 160deg. The egg whites are so thin that they are easily heated. You don't pour 230deg sugar syrup into egg whites and get cold egg whites. Recipes vary in what temp to bring the sugar syrup that may be why some study showed the egg whites didn't reach the proper temp or maybe the study was just plain skewed.
My egg yolk mixtures are harder to heat. The sugar syrup needs to be higher than the recipe temp or I've cooked the sugar and yolks together for a minute to make sure the temp reached 160.
Well actually that is what I tell people to do, check the temperature once the syrup is added because I found that is was only around 140F. Again mainly because the heat dissipates in the bowl. But by all means if your egg whites reach the temperature of 160F you are good to go. It was strictly because in the studies they found this was not the case.
Actually here is a quote from www.baking911.com
ON FOOD AND COOKING, by Harold McGee, he says that "Because much of the syrup's heat is lost to the bowl...the foam mass normally gets no hotter than 130 or 135 degrees F, which is insufficient to kill salmonella", page 108. You can use powdered pasteurized egg whites to make the Italian Meringue Buttercream if you are concerned.
End of quote.
Hugs SQuirrelly
I've never looked in the grocery store for pwd egg whites. Can you buy just regular pwd egg whites or do they all have a bunch of added chemicals? I know you're not the pwd egg salesrep, I just thought you may have bought them. 
I don't sell cakes and I had a couple of cakes to make this wkend. I bake from scratch so that was a lot of eggs in my tiny fridge. If the pwd egg whites are too expensive, then they would be a great buy when I need to do multiple cakes.
I can only comment on my personal taste.
If someone has real BUTTERcream using butter I love it. I think it's heavenly.
If someone buys a cake from the store and it's made from Crisco, I won't touch the stuff. Tastes like thick grease and always leave a film on your tongue. I don't use any Crisco, only natural shortening from the health food store. It doesn't leave that film behind.
I've never looked in the grocery store for pwd egg whites. Can you buy just regular pwd egg whites or do they all have a bunch of added chemicals? I know you're not the pwd egg salesrep, I just thought you may have bought them.
I don't sell cakes and I had a couple of cakes to make this wkend. I bake from scratch so that was a lot of eggs in my tiny fridge. If the pwd egg whites are too expensive, then they would be a great buy when I need to do multiple cakes.
Haha, no, nope egg saleperson here, I wish, haha! But if you cannot get them in your baking aisle you can get them through any of the websites or stores that sell to commercial bakeries.
What I find interesting is this. Buttercream actually refers to a recipe using butter and usually cream or the fact that you cream the butter and that of course butter is made from cream. But the class buttercream that everyone learns how to make in the Wilton classes and I think, the vast majority use to decorate would not be defined by most Europeans or chefs as being a true buttercream because, frankly, it uses shortening and water. But we don't object to that term. A lot of Europeans cannot tolerate the typical "American Buttercream" which refers to an icing made with all shortening and water and loads of powdered sugar or some butter and some shortening. So it is all really a matter of taste and what you are used to.
I grew up with icing made with only butter and loads of powdered sugar and such so that is what I am used to. Younger generations grew up with bakery icing which is the all shortening type of icing and that is what they are used to. Europeans tend to use more butter and cream than sugar and that is what they are used to. Some groups use all whipping cream as an icing with no or very little sugar added to it.
So I don't really have a problem with someone using shortening in an Italian Meringue Buttercream recipe because I think we are not really sticking to a strict code when making any of the icings or for that matter, the cakes themselves. I suppose the only time this might be a concern would be if you were a licensed commercial bakery and advertised your Italian Meringue Buttercream as containing fresh butter and you were using shortening, but that would be about it.
I would really be interested in trying it out with the shortening to taste the difference.
It can get interesting because I know of a few people that use cake mixes but advertise their cakes as all natural, no preservatives and well, you only have to read the side of a cake mix box to know that that isn't so. It gets really complicated, doesn't it? Haha, not to mention organically grown wheat and....
Hugs Squirrelly
"TickledPink" I don't use any Crisco, only natural shortening from the health food store. It doesn't leave that film behind.
What brand is the organic shortening? Is it much more expensive?
krissy_kze:
I use organic shortening from the health food store too, just like TikledPink, althought it may be a different kind. From what I know, there are two brands: Spectrum is the brand I use because it doen't have to be refridgerated. Its about $4 for 24 oz (1.5 lbs.) which I imagine is way more than regular shorning (I never buy it so I'm not really sure, lol). The other brand is Earth Balance (I LOVE their margerine) but it gets quite soft when out of refridgeration for long so I've only used it once (the store was out of spectrum and it was only for tasting cakes. the flavor was fine). It worked ok, but I wasn't tring to decorate with it. The reason this stuff doesn't have the nasty mouth feel (coating) is because its not hydrogonated like regular shornting. I personaly never use crisco becasue I can't stand how it tasstes and the coating it leaves in my mouth. Once was enough for me and that was 10 years ago! I say, to each his (or her, lol) own!
I can only comment on my personal taste.
If someone has real BUTTERcream using butter I love it. I think it's heavenly.
If someone buys a cake from the store and it's made from Crisco, I won't touch the stuff. Tastes like thick grease and always leave a film on your tongue. I don't use any Crisco, only natural shortening from the health food store. It doesn't leave that film behind.
I don't know about most of you, but I rarely get to make a cake that I like, it's all about whoever I'm making the cake for.
And I don't want to start the Crisco argument again, but here in Texas, it's hard making any type of icing with butter 80% of the year b/c of the heat and humidity. And I don't know what kind of recipe you're using for a shortening based icing but I can't imagine it tasting thick like grease. That sounds pretty nasty and not like any shortening based buttercream I've ever had that I make. Plus, what's this about buying a cake from the store. We make cakes right??
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