ATo get that good its going to take years. I just want to do what I love. I dont know I guess you all are right I just want it to badly I guess.
it doesn't take years at all--just keep going--you're fine
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To get that good its going to take years. I just want to do what I love. I dont know I guess you all are right I just want it to badly I guess.
Nothing wrong with wanting something because you love doing it. That is a strength. Take your determination and let it work for you. As long as you are willing to always improve you will find what seems like forever can come together quickly. Be harder on yourself than anyone else. Decorating is always changing - new trends, techniques, new products - The more knowledge you have the more power you have - I suspect you know this at 19. We all just need to be reminded from time to time - even an old lady like me - lol
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Original message sent by BeesKnees578
I would go to craftsy and grab some classes. Sometimes you can get a FANTASTIC class for $20. You will learn so much from these amazing people. I'm learning a ton.
The following is being said by me under the assumption that you are in a cottage industry state and would be doing this from your home, not a store front as THAT is a whole different animal (I thought you had said that somewhere along the line).
As far as what gatorcake has said...I agree and disagree. I absolutely agree that you've got some great potential. Your cakes are pretty neat and clean. Yes, there are a few issues and the degree of difficulty isn't high.
I disagree that you should not be selling. If someone is willing to pay for your cakes (as long as you are not SEVERELY undercutting other local cakers WITH YOUR SKILL LEVEL), then more power to you. Do some research as to what the TOP bakers in your area are selling for and the BOTTOM BAKERS. Honestly compare your skill level and price yourself somewhere in between...you will be making a little money while you are gaining valuable experience. And be honest...if someone says "hey, can you do this?" and it is above your level and you aren't comfortable trying, tell them you are not the baker for them. Better to create what you can and create it WELL, then under-deliver and have people saying your work is crap. This is how you build your customer base.
MOST of us are not born with the skill level of the top cakers in the industry. They worked at it and so must we.
No one should work for free. Apprentices get paid (squat) and when they become Masters, they make a wage commensurate with their skills.
I don't understand why some seem to think people should stay locked in their creative space until they experts? That's like telling people you MUST work at the Walmart bakery while you build your skill. Well, you won't be building your expert skills at Walmart because you will have to crank out a cake in 20 minutes. You will get really good at icing a cake, but they aren't going to teach you how to build your skills to a high-demand, gorgeous cake-maker, style me pretty designer. You have to do that on your own! And how are you going to fund the learning on your own?? By charging for the cakes that you CAN make well. As you get better, you raise your prices.
What IS unnerving (and this is why some of us DO get so upset about the undercutting of competitors' pricing) is when someone that has a VERY high skill set charges Walmart prices. That is unfair to both sides. Why would you WANT to work super hard and not make what the BIG GIRLS (and boys) are making??? Or if your state DOESN'T have cottage industry option, then obviously there is HUGE tension with unlicensed bakers.
Is anyone with me on this, or am I talking crazy!?! I do not own a store front, and if I did, I may have a different perspective. I'm talking cottage industry here. If we didn't have cottage industry, I probably never would have thought to get into decorating. Illegitimate bakers be damned!
You know I read this post and it saddened me....Rachel, here's some advice from someone who didn't get started until later and made plenty of cakes with bulges, frosting issues, melting borders, lopsided fondant etc. I make great money with my cakes and I started from my home kitchen. If cakes make you happy and your customers are happy then I wouldn't worry so much what other people think.....even fellow decorators. And if other decorators are resentful of how you started out, why you started out, whether you work out of a cottage kitchen, whether you are making money or your just a hobbyist, etc. etc. etc. then they have "issues". I personally don't worry about the cake shop down the street or the hobbyist who learned everything from$1000 seminars....whatever...
Learn to trust your own eyes, by being critical of your own work and evaluating where you need to improve. We are usually hardest on ourselves and don't need everyone piling on. I've found that it is best to "eye" your own work and then ask a targeted question from people on CC, such as "how can I prevent my cake from bulging on the side". Then the advice is usually spot on..
And for those CC'rs that are so harsh, I say lighten up...All of you started somewhere. Did any of you happen to notice that she is only 19 yrs. old? She has a dream. I wish I had such talent and a dream when I was just 19.
I say "you go girl"....you are going to do great. Don't be sidetracked by anyone.
Im 22. Age has nothing to do with it. Theres a professional standard to be upheld. Does having a bulge mean you'll never be able to sell? no. but nobody should get a cake that does.
AAmen val cakes!!! You hit the nail on the head. The whole point if this forum to offer suggestions, comments and guidance. Quality has to start somewhere. If customers like what to start out with, then as you improve so will customers. That's the fun part if this skillset. If it doesn't turn out right try try again.
AYes, but there is also something called pride in ownership, and pride in workmanship. I learned this through jewelry. I took classes for two,years with a casual,teacher and I got into a ton of bad habits and wasted a ton of money making and trying to sell inferior jewelry. Now I am taking classes from the best, the "$1000 a day seminar" equivalent that someone up thread mocked. I believe that if my name is going onto it, I don't want to be "cheap beginner baker." Sure, if you sell cheaply enough, anyone will buy it. WalMart thrives on that model. But as custom cake bakers, is that the model that is workable? For some. Just like many custom bakers use mixes and shortening while others wouldn't dream of using those ingredients in a custom cake. Personally, I would not. People can get those ingredients in a cake from WalMart. But many people have thriving businesses using inferior ingredients.
But if you don't expect people to hold high standards on a cake site, where would they? Is "good enough that you neighbor will pay $50 for a two tier cake" what should be promoted here? I hope not. Standards are not a dirty word. Quality is not to be scoffed at. In today's world, "good enough" is the way to go, but not for artisans and craftsmen. Those are the people here I aspire to be like. Not ones who take pride in selling crooked cakes and bulging fillings just because someone will buy it.
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Thank you bees knees for answering Rachaelcak3s post. It is so difficult to get an actual honest answer from the cc forum group. I too am a home baker, cottage laws apply to me. I've been a cc member for a few months now and when I asked for suggestions. I got the standard " figure it out yourself" response. I believe my cakes taste great!! My decorating skills improve daily. I bake only for friends and family because of the fear that my fellow bakers will be offended that I'm underpricing to gain customers. Good luck and keep practicing your skills.
It's difficult to get an "honest" answer, as you say, because of the backlash that comes from honesty and not just plain flattery. If anyone says something other than "follow your dreams" you are called a dream crusher, a meanie, harsh, bitter, angry, jealous. Pretty much everything anyone who gave advice to wait in this thread was called. Doesn't seem worth it to give advice that will most likely fall on deaf ears. I am a homebaker, I have never taken a class or seminar and most of the decorators on here are the same. HERE is the truth.
It is a hard job and you have to have thick skin. There are a lot of hours and not a lot of pay. It is NOT easy to make enough money to support yourself unless you are turning out something different than the other bakeries/bakers down the road where mediocre is the standard. There is always someone willing to do it cheaper and will stab you in the back at any moment to snatch an order. There are people who will steal your designs, your pictures and your logo and then throw a hissy fit when you ask them to stop. There are clients who will try to take advantage of you with a sob story and turn around and rip you apart to try to get a refund. There are no simple answers to pricing questions because of the amount of variables. Empower yourself. It's a freeing feeling to know you are not relying on the bakery down the street or an online group of people who may or may not have a successful business to tell you what to charge. You may think it's faster, but you'll never understand how to make a profit if you don't know what your costs are. It's also faster for me to tie my 6 year old's shoes, but if I continue to do it for him, he will never learn to tie them himself and will forever be asking someone else for help. I want him to be independent, to know he can accomplish something on his own.
I have a heart for bakers. I don't want to see someone work themselves to the bone for months or years for next to nothing. That's time away from your loved ones, your friends, your kids. It's an exhausting job, mentally, physically, emotionally. And last, I have a heart for my clients. I care enough about the people who order a cake from me to give them a cake with straight sides, no bulges and wrinkled fondant -- those are the basics that are not hard to master. I said before, it does NOT take years to master those skills if you practice. The problem is, people don't want to practice. They don't want to hear, keep working, all they want is empty flattery. They only want to talk about the fun parts of cake, and skip over all the hard parts. That's not fair to the OP or anyone just starting out. You have to go into any business with your eyes wide open. There are enough unseen things that will pop out of nowhere, you have to be ready for the obvious obstacles from the start. And that is the truth.
It's not always about YOU, the baker and YOUR dreams. It's about the person celebrating a life event and wanting to mark it with something special. Have enough respect for that person to not give them something mediocre, they have taken the time to search out something other than the grocery store because they want something better for their loved one or event. People only post pictures on their pages of their 'Best" work and that's what the client expects. If you can't create that "best" cake every time, you are risking disappointing someone. It's not JUST about taste or JUST about looks, it's BOTH. There are threads all the time about disasters and how hurtful it is to the baker. Rarely, does anyone acknowledge the fact it was hurtful to the person who trusted them to give them a good cake, in both look and taste. But instead of being a part of a great celebration, made an unhappy memory for that PERSON. A person with feelings and dreams of their own. Maybe it was a once in a lifetime event, maybe it was the last birthday they celebrated with a loved one, they don't get a do-over. You'll get to make another cake, but they won't get THAT day back.
Here is my best and last advice: Have a heart for your clients and respect them enough to know the basics. Have a heart for bakers and don't tell them to jump into deep water without knowing how to swim. And if you've never dealt with the business side of cake, don't encourage someone else to start before they are prepared. There is a difference between business and hobby but people blur the line and find themselves in a business they were not prepared to start and are ill equipped to manage. They get overwhelmed by orders and deadlines and the quality that wasn't there to start with goes down further because of lack of time management and rushing. There is a thread on here right now about that exact thing. An angry customer slamming a baker on facebook because she ruined her daughter's baby shower. Are you ready for those comments? Are you ready for those situations? If you can't handle a critique of your work by professionals and people who aren't emotionally involved in this situation, how would you deal with that situation?
The reason more an more pros are leaving cake central is exactly the attitude in this thread. Any meaningful advice is twisted into "jealousy" and "rudeness." Beware of flatterers, they usually have their own agenda and are not looking out for you, your time, your money and your feelings. It's not jealousy, it's reality. Until you are prepared to deal with ALL sides of it, don't jump. And for those of you who are mad that pros aren't giving you detailed advice, keep in mind how you and others respond to them. Watch this thread and the many others, usually, it's the professionals who are attacked by people who don't have a clue on the business side of cake. All sorts of names are thrown around and you guys wonder why no one is answering your questions?
rachelcak3s- You don't seem to take constructive criticism too well and will need to work on that. Given your age though, I expect that will eventually change if you truly respect the art and want to be serious about it. Please keep in mind you are particpating in a forum wherein you are seeking advice from seasoned professionals. Some of these people have been competing for years and appeared on tv themselves- they too have been on the other end of constructive criticism- and though it may have stung, they took it and built on it. Moreover, they have spent thousands and thousands of dollars investing in their trade and training.
From everything I read herein, I think the feedback thus far has been very useful. I myself have had a pseudo "cottage cake business" (love that term by the way) since I was 16. I am 40 now. Actually I don't think I can even consider it a business of any kind... to be quite blunt it is a hobby. I often charge what it costs for the material (most of which I keep, i.e. a special pan, or other piece of equipment) and then I may tack on some extra for my time and effort. That said, on average I do about three to four cakes a year... and, yes, I have been thinking about whether I am good enough at this point to go in to business myself; it is something I would very much do if it were in my power, regardless of my skill, and, I too have had numerous people tell me I should do it. But, something was keeping me back, and, after reading this, I know that deep down inside, willing to put pride aside, I can accept alot of what these professionals are saying as absolutely relevant to me as well. Truth be told, I have never had professinal training. I was taught the basics by a little lady named Margeurite who owned the local Carvel Ice Cream store. I am otherwise self taught. Whereas to those I bake for, my cakes are absolutely amazing, I myself can spot the flaws on every single one and when I compare it to others in few cases I might have an equal or better product, but in most, not so much. You have to be willing to accept this too, especially if you will be entering such a competitive market.
Look, no one is attacking you here, and no one is telling you NOT to puruse your dream if that is what this is. They are just answering the question you yourself posed "Am I good enough?" And are even willing to share their own experiences with you which is such a great thing. In any business based on talent, you have to be willing to accept criticism from those more knoweldgable than you, especially when you yourself solicit it.
Don't forget though, its also about believing in yourself as well. I think its great that you are thinking about the future and as many professionals have already said as much, you have some great talent! :) But, I agree with everyone here who has pointed out that if you haven't even explored the business end of your 'dream' you really aren't ready at all. I started looking at it last night myself.. there is so much involved, and so much you need to know... i.e. you need to develop a business plan, and a market analysis of your area just to name a couple of things, most importantly, you need to research your local laws and regulations on private business ownership, you need financing, supplies, ect...
I also think it should be said that in this forum when you say "business" everyone takes that seriously as a legitimate business, complete with tax ID number, lawyers, copyright laws, and the whole shabang - reality is such that charging family and friends to make a cake for their special occasion every now and then is not a legitimate business...
Keep up the good work! I just joined this forum in the past 24 hours but I must say I have learned sooooooo much already... It is a gold mine and a resource that not many dreamers have access to. BUT, when you seek guidance from a community of your peers and professionals therein, know what you are asking for and be ready to accept it all gracefully. You may not always agree with what people say, but, you don't always have to follow it either... just don't get so offended, or discouraged... keep at it! Use what is being given to you.
And please do not take this constructive criticism as offensive either. I am excited for you for what may lie ahead with the right mindset, and impressed that you want to take it serious - I'm just saying don't get so defensive. ;-) You go girl. Good luck!!
And to the forum members and moderators, I can't tell you how personally appreciative I am of your willingness to share your ideas, thoughts, and critiques. Thank you.
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But if you don't expect people to hold high standards on a cake site, where would they? Is "good enough that you neighbor will pay $50 for a two tier cake" what should be promoted here? I hope not. Standards are not a dirty word. Quality is not to be scoffed at. In today's world, "good enough" is the way to go, but not for artisans and craftsmen. Those are the people here I aspire to be like. Not ones who take pride in selling crooked cakes and bulging fillings just because someone will buy it.
Great post, nancylee61!
AWhere dose it say exactly that I take pride in a bulging cake im seriously about to re make the cake without the bulge so you can all hush down a bit over something that has happened to so many bakers. Did I notice the bulge .. yes.. maybe the day after I made it the day it was ready for pick up 2 hours before pickup. Maybe I noted to my customer what was wrong maybe they said it was ok and that they still loved it maybe... maybe not. But none of you know. Ask questions first please. I have seen many cakes on here with this issue.
Love love love sixinarow's advice on respecting the customer and wanting to honor their celebration and appreciate you enough as an artist to contribute to their lasting memories.
True enough. You are right. I think it is apt that the customer is the focus. I am merely suggesting that she learn to critique herself.
As to flattery, I have nothing to gain. I simply am telling her to work hard, learn more, and move forward....mistakes and shortcomings included. Sometimes those situations and the desire to avoid pain will teach you more than a boatload of criticism.
Nancylee- By no means am I mocking the $1000 seminars. My apology if I came off that way. I'd take one to if I had the opportunity.....learning more means moving forward!
In short, I agree with about 99% of what is being put forth by other cakers. Most of the advice is sound and from voices of experience. I've seen your work, especially yours-Arizona Couture- its stunning and breathtaking....
I just cringe at some of the harshness of the commentary....
Happy caking....
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Where dose it say exactly that I take pride in a bulging cake im seriously about to re make the cake without the bulge so you can all hush down a bit over something that has happened to so many bakers. Did I notice the bulge .. yes.. maybe the day after I made it the day it was ready for pick up 2 hours before pickup. Maybe I noted to my customer what was wrong maybe they said it was ok and that they still loved it maybe... maybe not. But none of you know. Ask questions first please. I have seen many cakes on here with this issue.
Me too! and it drives me crazy...but those people aren't asking for opinions or advice. If they did, they'd get the same responses as are on here now.
Do you have the raw talent to do this? In a word 'yes'. I think that's what you want to know and it's my opinion that you do.
Now...what are you going to do to improve on it? And how are you going to handle honest critiques? That's the next step in your journey.
You mentioned that if someone wants to buy a cake based on your skill level then why not sell to them (I think that was you--forgive me if it's not), I say that the customer has expectations that you may or may not live up to. Most non-cake people see someone who does a fairly decent job (like you) and in the back of their minds think that you can create ANYTHING that is out there! Beware of people who hand you pictures of a Ron Ben Israel design and say 'do this for me'! Even if you say, 'I'm not at that level yet", and the customer tells you that's it's OK, do the best you can do...beware that that customer IS expecting the higher skill level. They just do because they don't understand the process. Guess who will get slammed for disappointing her customer? That's why so many pros on here are telling you to improve your basic skills first and are pointing out things like the bulge and advising you on how to correct it.
If you keep at this, you will look back on your first cakes and say 'wow, I've come a long way'. Just love what you do and practice and ask questions. Even if you don't like the answers you can generally learn something from them. And again...yes....you do have the raw talent to continue. The question is do you have the passion and perseverance to do what it takes to get there? Good luck!
ARachel, It is hard to respond to you. No matter what is said, you get offended. My daughter is 19 and in art school, and the professors shred her work to pieces regularly. Why? So she gets better. She may get upset, but takes the critique and improves by leaps and bounds. I think you came here wanting us all to praise your great work and you got honesty, and you don't want that. You want everyone to say you are the next great baker. Good luck to you. An art class at a community college might serve you well in taking critique.
And for those who say the critics don't put their work out there, I have. I haven't asked if I'm good enough yet because the answer is a resounding NO !!! :)
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yes, you noticed--
i will say this though--a lot of people have improved their game on this considerably where they are making a difference in beautiful ways imo--
but we need to eliminate the outside nasty harsh edge of 'advice'--shooting straight is ok--being toxic is not ok--we say "oh she can't take any criticism--she just wants to be stroked" if we critiqued correctly she would be singing our praises--almost all of our criticism is right and good but a very small portion is toxic--and that poisons the bunch--
(i've heard it said that) for example 95% of rat poison is viable food anyone can eat without harm but add in the last 5% poison and it's quite a different story--
i love the fact that valscake has the balls to mention the cringing -- thank you
we can do better--while shooting straight and giving good careful detailed advice is great...
just say no to cringe-worthy-advice
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yes, you noticed--
i will say this though--a lot of people have improved their game on this considerably where they are making a difference in beautiful ways imo--
but we need to eliminate the outside nasty harsh edge of 'advice'--shooting straight is ok--being toxic is not ok--we say "oh she can't take any criticism--she just wants to be stroked" if we critiqued correctly she would be singing our praises--almost all of our criticism is right and good but a very small portion is toxic--and that poisons the bunch--
(i've heard it said that) for example 95% of rat poison is viable food anyone can eat without harm but add in the last 5% poison and it's quite a different story--
i love the fact that valscake has the balls to mention the cringing -- thank you
we can do better--while shooting straight and giving good careful detailed advice is great...
just say no to cringe-worthy-advice
Why don't you just flag the posts, and move on? It's the internet K8, there's always going to be trolls, people who just like to stir the pot, and others who just don't care about being polite. It's not an issue with this site, it's an issue on any forum that exists. Ignore it, flag it, whatever, You can't change it, and you certainly won't change the people you're talking about. If anything, it only encourages them. I really hope you don't put as much energy into worrying about this as you let on.
I mean really...there are thousands of people who don't act like that. Do you recognize them for their efforts as well, or just draw attention to a very very small number of people? How boring and energy wasting. If I were the site owner, I'd delete your (and another couple of similar people) constant commentary about it, because I wouldn't want that to be what new members saw every time a "hot" thread got going.
when a thread drags on and on and i know someone's been writhing from it--yes it bothers me--
i try to avoid these threads--but i have done a bad job of avoiding them yesterday & today--
i mean op got body slammed early on and here we are on the 6th page--idk--i feel bad for her--
if valscake hadn't validated my own thoughts i would not have posted--it's valscake's fault
idk--did you read the second sentence of my post? in fact you are one of the ones who has changed imo
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To bring this back to the issue at hand...
Improve your boards, either hot glue 3-4 rounds together, cover in fondant, and put a ribbon around it OR get the nicer 1/2" drums that come in either gold, silver or white from GSA and trim with ribbon. I personally feel that self-covered boards with the foil stuff looks homey, not necessarily professional. You could do that, though, and also trim out with ribbon.
Taller tiers...I aim for around 5" once all the icing and fondant is put on. That seems to be the norm anymore as the 4" tall ones seem a bit squat. If that means baking another layer...then bake another layer. Or you can torte to get a little more height.
Your bow has the toothpick under it than you can see. I have never made a bow with a toothpick, so this may be something that I am not aware of. There are soooo many ways to make different styles of bows and they seem to always stress me out. Check out some tutorials, if you haven't already. I am considering that as well.
Writing....for a really professional look you can buy things called tappits or clicksticks that make letters a breeze after a little playing around with them, that is. I hated them at first and now I love them because my writing on cakes STINKS!!
Hope that helps!
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