Not wanting to fight with you at all, I enjoy your posts immensely.......but there are just untruths being given out....
Flour and sugar are chemically-synthesized and/or chemically-modified, yes.
No.....not chemically synthesized. They both come from a naturally-occuring plant and are mechanically processed. Enriched flour has vitamins and minerals added.....again, these readily occur in nature.
It's silly to say this is a dead horse. Why bother to respond then?
I didn't say it was a dead horse......the several posters before me said that. I was just playing with their words in an attempt to lend some levity. Guess that didn't work. 
[i]Those items you listed in the mix are not preservatives, most of them are emulsifiers.[/i]
Yes, several are emulsifiers. They also act to stabilize the prepared item. in Wikipedia you get lines like "used in food science as a viscosity modifier or thickener, and to stabilize the emulsion" My previous statement was that pre-packaged/ prepared items have food additives and chemicals to help them last longer and perform correctly. I never used the term preservative, but I think it is fair to say something that stabilizes the food, helps it last longer and perform correctly. That's just semantics though.....
All eggs contain lutein and zeaxanthin as well as fatty acids expressed in in triglycerides--that's in all eggs--it's just some chemical mumbo jumbo names for stuff we eat every day. 'Eggs' we get. Lutein and zeaxanthin and fatty acids expressed as triglycerides--not so much.
Except that I'm a scientist by profession, and so I do "get" them.
I am only pointing out that there is a huge difference between substances naturally occuring in the world outdoors and substances that have to be artificially created in a lab......and it shouldn't come as such a surprise that substances created artificially in a chemistry lab taste,to some, well........chemically.
I would not consider Twinkies or DingDongs "scratch" b/c you need a chemistry lab to create them, not a kitchen.
And it is simply not true that scratch bakers at home add all of the same additives that are in Twinkies and DingDongs, which do include many lab-created synthetics, as well as preservatives, of course.
I suppose it just depends on your definition of "scratch". If you want to define scratch as anything that is made from a list of components, then all food everywhere, pre-prepared, pre-packaged or otherwise is "scratch" b/c at some point it all started out as a list of components. On the other hand, you could also make the arguement that everything is a "mix".........they put all of the ingredients of twinkies (or Aunt Susie's scratch cake) in the industrial-sized blender and then it's mixed together so, it's a "mix".
I do think for most people though, scratch means able to be made from common, naturally-occuring, pantry ingredients, without a run to ye olde chemistry lab...... no?
In any event, I am not trying to start a fight, as I said. I don't have any problem with people using mixes or with people not using mixes. I have always said that people should use what they like and what their customers will pay for and enjoy. Heck, I can promise you that 99% of the mix bakers on here decorate better than I ever will and that's great.
I was only pointing out that...
1) There absolutely are things added to box mixes that are not in the ingredients added by an at-home, scratch baker and
2)It should come as no surprise that some people find things created in a chemistry lab to taste "chemically".
Gotta go to bed now, cause I gotta go to work in my cancer lab early tomorrow......no really.......where we have a veritable treasure-trove of man-made chemicals and even some good old, naturally-occuring, sodium chloride.....a pinch of which I will absolutely throw into my next baked good.
I wish you all god's sleep and a good night!
Oh, and Alton Brown prefers box mixes! He says that there is no way the at home baker has access to the items in the box mix which are necessary to make the cake taste best! Which goes against my baking preference, but does back up my arguement.....
Gotta love good old Alton......such a nerd! 
Thank you, giraffe11, sincerely for some scientific truth. I would not call twinkies from scratch products. I have worked in commercial bakeries, and all of the ones I worked in used mixes, even those that claimed to be scratch. We used to joke about it, but one manager told us rather sternly that our products WERE scratch since it was baked in the store and not shipped in frozen from a production line. I don't have any problem with mixes, I use them often. I agree that mixes are sometimes more affordable, especially on sale. I, speaking completely for myself sometimes feel a pang of guilt over using a strait mix but there is one I always use a mix for RED VELVET!
Kiki - no need to aplogize, we are are new here at some point!! Just stick close by and we'll keep you safe! 
CC is a wonderful place and a wealth of information - most of us share freely about our love of cakes - I have made many lifelong friends on here. You just happened to jump in a fire right off the bat!
Thank you, giraffe11 ! Hope your cancer research goes well...
I honestly don't understand what the difference between scratch and mix is....
There is no right or wrong answer as to which is better....but please don't tell me they are the same.
But there is an unrealistic feud, a huge stigma, a crazy not founded on fact mess huh.
I'm not saying they are the same--I'm saying they are not what we think they are. Clearly they overlap. They are not clearly different. Scratch is not the opposite of mix and vice versa.
If Twinkies are made from scratch then scratch baking is not as wholesome and natural as it might be thought to be.
If eggs contain things that have weird unfamiliar chemical names then maybe not all the stuff on the cake mix box is a rip roaring rotten ingredient.
Sugar is a harmful substance. White sugar always gets a pass because it is so accepted. It is a highly suspect, highly refined verifiably harmful to the body ingredient.
Just saying--it's not black and white--it's all a blend--I'm trying to illuminate the lines because they are not realistic. Trying to pound away at the old divide.
I honestly don't understand what the difference between scratch and mix is....
There is no right or wrong answer as to which is better....but please don't tell me they are the same.
But there is an unrealistic feud, a huge stigma, a crazy not founded on fact mess huh.
I'm not saying they are the same--I'm saying they are not what we think they are. Clearly they overlap. They are not clearly different. Scratch is not the opposite of mix and vice versa.
If Twinkies are made from scratch then scratch baking is not as wholesome and natural as it might be thought to be.
If eggs contain things that have weird unfamiliar chemical names then maybe not all the stuff on the cake mix box is a rip roaring rotten ingredient.
Sugar is a harmful substance. White sugar always gets a pass because it is so accepted. It is a highly suspect, highly refined verifiably harmful to the body ingredient.
Just saying--it's not black and white--it's all a blend--I'm trying to illuminate the lines because they are not realistic. Trying to pound away at the old divide.
But the point is that Twinkies aren't made from scratch. BCJean is right, bake the way that you want to bake, but don't say it's the same. If someone asks you if your cake was baked from scratch it's a yes or no answer, and I think that we all know that. You (the generic you) can try to kid yourself all you want about it, but mixes and scratch cakes aren't the same. Scratch cakes aren't a "blend" of mix ingredients. Mixes might be a blend of scratch ingredients and added chemicals and emulsifiers, so it's not "all" a blend. If it's a mix it's a mix, whether you like it or not.
I do both I like my carrot cake, red velvet, and chocolate fudge (because I believe the scratch version is more fudgy and brownie like) from scratch. I so white, yellow, and plenty fun flavors from a box. I like box better.. Most definitely. I also think there are more box bakers than scratch bakers so those boxes must be doing something right I do understand why many UK bakers don't like box mixes though -- they are totally different and not nearly as yummy as the boxes here in America (IMO, obviously!) I'm just used to the American version of the box mix.
I also think that baking a box cake and 'doctoring it' many times is more expensive. The only scratch recipe that I have that is more expensive is my dark chocolate fudge. My yellow box cake is much more expensive than my scratch cake. Both taste delicious, but I prefer the box version any day over the scratch.
I honestly don't understand what the difference between scratch and mix is....
There is no right or wrong answer as to which is better....but please don't tell me they are the same.
But there is an unrealistic feud, a huge stigma, a crazy not founded on fact mess huh.
I'm not saying they are the same--I'm saying they are not what we think they are. Clearly they overlap. They are not clearly different. Scratch is not the opposite of mix and vice versa.
If Twinkies are made from scratch then scratch baking is not as wholesome and natural as it might be thought to be.
If eggs contain things that have weird unfamiliar chemical names then maybe not all the stuff on the cake mix box is a rip roaring rotten ingredient.
Sugar is a harmful substance. White sugar always gets a pass because it is so accepted. It is a highly suspect, highly refined verifiably harmful to the body ingredient.
Just saying--it's not black and white--it's all a blend--I'm trying to illuminate the lines because they are not realistic. Trying to pound away at the old divide.
Do you argue, just to hear yourself?
I honestly don't understand what the difference between scratch and mix is....
There is no right or wrong answer as to which is better....but please don't tell me they are the same.
But there is an unrealistic feud, a huge stigma, a crazy not founded on fact mess huh.
I'm not saying they are the same--I'm saying they are not what we think they are. Clearly they overlap. They are not clearly different. Scratch is not the opposite of mix and vice versa.
If Twinkies are made from scratch then scratch baking is not as wholesome and natural as it might be thought to be.
If eggs contain things that have weird unfamiliar chemical names then maybe not all the stuff on the cake mix box is a rip roaring rotten ingredient.
Sugar is a harmful substance. White sugar always gets a pass because it is so accepted. It is a highly suspect, highly refined verifiably harmful to the body ingredient.
Just saying--it's not black and white--it's all a blend--I'm trying to illuminate the lines because they are not realistic. Trying to pound away at the old divide.
Do you argue, just to hear yourself?
What is the purpose of your words.
I am debating.
Twinkies are made from scratch.
Oh my goodness! Now someone is bringing health into it!
Honey, we're on a cake/baking board! We best not start talking about health!
I just watched a special on Alzheimer's last night and told my husband.......we really have to cut down on our intake of sweet treats. I know when I land in that coffin, I'll have spiking blood sugar and arteries clogging up with trans-fats from that nasty old hi-ratio shortening I sometimes use.
Good health and happy baking!
[But the point is that Twinkies aren't made from scratch.
How are they made?
I honestly don't understand what the difference between scratch and mix is....
There is no right or wrong answer as to which is better....but please don't tell me they are the same.
But there is an unrealistic feud, a huge stigma, a crazy not founded on fact mess huh.
I'm not saying they are the same--I'm saying they are not what we think they are. Clearly they overlap. They are not clearly different. Scratch is not the opposite of mix and vice versa.
If Twinkies are made from scratch then scratch baking is not as wholesome and natural as it might be thought to be.
If eggs contain things that have weird unfamiliar chemical names then maybe not all the stuff on the cake mix box is a rip roaring rotten ingredient.
Sugar is a harmful substance. White sugar always gets a pass because it is so accepted. It is a highly suspect, highly refined verifiably harmful to the body ingredient.
Just saying--it's not black and white--it's all a blend--I'm trying to illuminate the lines because they are not realistic. Trying to pound away at the old divide.
Do you argue, just to hear yourself?
What is the purpose of your words.
I am debating.
Twinkies are made from scratch.
I think you are just going a little too far in defending mixes.
Why should there be anyone else selling cakes besides Wal-mart? They use all the same exact cake mixes as the one you find in the grocery store. All the same eggs, water, and oil.
I use mixes for certain people and have no problem with that. I use scratch for myself, because I personally like the taste better.
I honestly don't understand what the difference between scratch and mix is....
There is no right or wrong answer as to which is better....but please don't tell me they are the same.
But there is an unrealistic feud, a huge stigma, a crazy not founded on fact mess huh.
I'm not saying they are the same--I'm saying they are not what we think they are. Clearly they overlap. They are not clearly different. Scratch is not the opposite of mix and vice versa.
If Twinkies are made from scratch then scratch baking is not as wholesome and natural as it might be thought to be.
If eggs contain things that have weird unfamiliar chemical names then maybe not all the stuff on the cake mix box is a rip roaring rotten ingredient.
Sugar is a harmful substance. White sugar always gets a pass because it is so accepted. It is a highly suspect, highly refined verifiably harmful to the body ingredient.
Just saying--it's not black and white--it's all a blend--I'm trying to illuminate the lines because they are not realistic. Trying to pound away at the old divide.
Do you argue, just to hear yourself?
What is the purpose of your words.
I am debating.
Twinkies are made from scratch.
I think you are just going a little too far in defending mixes.
Why should there be anyone else selling cakes besides Wal-mart? They use all the same exact cake mixes as the one you find in the grocery store. All the same eggs, water, and oil.
I use mixes for certain people and have no problem with that. I use scratch for myself, because I personally like the taste better.
You are welcome to your opinion.
[But the point is that Twinkies aren't made from scratch.
How are they made?
With industrial-sized bags of twinkie mix.
[But the point is that Twinkies aren't made from scratch.
How are they made?
With industrial-sized bags of twinkie mix.
[But the point is that Twinkies aren't made from scratch.
How are they made?
With industrial-sized bags of twinkie mix.
[But the point is that Twinkies aren't made from scratch.
How are they made?
With industrial-sized bags of twinkie mix.
Love you!!!!
The definition of scratch baking is where the line gets blurred. There is no set agreed upon definition of what baking from scratch entails. To some so long as you mix your ingredients together yourself you are baking from scratch... to others it's understanding how to make a consistent product without the need for man made emulsifiers. We will never agree on a cohesive definition.
I don't think the hostility stems from which is right or wrong. I think it stems more from the idea that scratch baking is hard to do correctly. So when someone comes along and says that their semi-homemade cake is a scratch cake it can really burn the people who have taken the time to get to know their ingredients and master the craft. Then the hair stands up and the mix bakers get pissy because they percieve the scratch bakers are cheapening what they do. It's not usually the case though. The only one who can cheapen what you do is you. If you think you are making a great product then by all means you are... don't let someone's thoughts on what they do effect your view on yourself. People constantly say "scratch cakes are dry and tasteless" and I could sit here and get my dander up and think "How dare they" but I don't. I smile and nod and know that my cakes are neither dry nor tasteless and go on with my happy little life. You choose what you let effect you.
If your customers aren't complaining then you are doing something right... be it mix baking or scratch baking it doesn't matter.
To me scratch baking is to take raw ingredients (as raw as you can get them anyway) and put them together without the use of man made food additives (as an ingredient). Twinkies are HIGHLY processed... they exist because of man made food additives... therefore they aren't from scratch. K8 has a very broad interpretation of scratch baking... she wants us all to hold hands and sing campfire songs and get along. Most likely ain't gonna happen... but it's nice to dream. I say there's room for it all in this world, and what is better only goes as far as what the one making it believes.
To liken the enriching process to adding man made emulsifiers to a food product is (to me) like comparing apples and oranges. To others it justifies a means... potato potahto I suppose, but the point remains... we will never all agree so go on with your lives doing what you think is best for you. It's all you can do no?
Also... the idea that a cake made from scratch is anything related to the word healthy is ludicrous. Cake... no matter how you put it together... is far from healthy or wholesome.
Eggs are emulsifiers, Jeanne.
If we want to draw a line at highly processed then white enriched flour is it as well as sugar.
My ultimate point is that there is no higher or lower moral ground here. As I hope the more mature of us can acknowlege the battle does exist and needs to be mythbusted--as evidenced by these everlasting questions about it.
However Twinkies are made from scratch. They do have a preservative. They do have some emulsifiers. And the reason many grocery store cakes taste like poo is because they are scratch made and those stabilizers are added. Definitely some are made from mixes but not all not by far.
If we make an eggless cake for an allergy sufferer, we will be using the very same ingredients used by the cake mix people--emulsifiers.
My everlasting point is that this flows both ways as well as all points in between.
It's not at all that scratch and mix are the same--it's that they are not different by the existing definitions. They are not the same there's just no real difference.
Hey, but I want to hold hands and sing campfire songs too! Don't you wanna hold hands and sing campfire songs???? We can make s'mores! Oh wait.....then we'll have to debate whether the artificial chemicals in my chocolate bar make the s'mores "scratch or not-scratch". Tee hee!
Ok, I'm at work now, so I'm going to go do it and be a responsible scientist. I'll miss you all!
Hey, but I want to hold hands and sing campfire songs too! Don't you wanna hold hands and sing campfire songs???? We can make s'mores! Oh wait.....then we'll have to debate whether the artificial chemicals in my chocolate bar make the s'mores "scratch or not-scratch". Tee hee!
Ok, I'm at work now, so I'm going to go do it and be a responsible scientist. I'll miss you all!
I'll make the marshmallows from scratch for the s'mores...They taste much better than store-bought
I also think that baking a box cake and 'doctoring it' many times is more expensive. The only scratch recipe that I have that is more expensive is my dark chocolate fudge. My yellow box cake is much more expensive than my scratch cake. Both taste delicious, but I prefer the box version any day over the scratch.
I have often wondered that. What do you use that makes it more expensive because I find that my butter alone cost me more than the box mix?
I find that I will have to raise my prices for my cakes just because of the amount of butter that I use.
I know eggs are emuslifiers K8... I'm not stupid. I am also well aware what white flour and sugar are processed ingredients... I of all people certainly don't need a food science lesson.
My point is there is no definition that everyone will ever agree on so why argue at all? You do what you want and I'll do what I want and we can all just make cakes and get on with it. This is a pointless argument that will never go away. I think we both have the same point in the end... that so long as what you do makes you (collective) happy it shouldn't matter what anyone else does right?
I think K8's point, which is a very good one, is that whether it is from scratch or a box there will be chemicals in the cake, one way or another. I'm not taking sides here, whatsoever, I bake scratch and doctored boxes. But...I am sure that in some of the ingredients in scratch cakes there are chemicals, naturally occuring or not. K8, I will sing songs with you at the camp fire!
I know what her point is, and agree with a lot of it. I just think it goes too far. If twinkies are made from scratch then so if everyother processed food. Can you hear the verses of kumbya yet?
I am sorry to find that someone was nearly in tears over this.
However, it is a large world. There are cake decorators who are happy with box/modified boxed/etc. There are cake decorators who have found a niche doing "scratch"/organic/whatever you wish to call it baking.
Unfortunately, as business owners, we want to differentiate our products. BMW claims to be the "ultimate diriving machine." There those who like "Ram Tough." There are the hundreds of logos that we can recite about products. There are differences among them, and there are similarities.
I guess what the issue is for me (and just me ) is when I read advice about giving, what to me, seem to be "cutsey" answers to ingredient questions. If I went to buy a car, and asked about the volume or metal block component of the engine, I would not want to be told, "Ah, hun, it's a secret. Just drive it and enjoy."
Likewise, if a customer asks (for whatever reason, allergy, health, nosiness) about ingredients, I feel (and my local/state laws also require) that full disclosure is given. If I used enriched flour (which I have for some product lines), yes, the Niacin, Brans, Malts, etc. are all listed.
So, I'm coming from that perspective. I have been to craft fairs and small shops where food products were sold without proper labels. I don't turn them in, but, on the other hand, I really don't want to buy them. I am a small shop, and my customers (and the law) appreciate the extra steps I take for compliance.
So, no, I am not into the scratch/mix divide...just disclosure. That I do see as black and white...just like a printed label!
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