sonoma9 wrote:
The teacher must be allowed to present a unified curriuclum at some point, and every student must learn to deal with it or else the teacher might as well just do independent study with each of them. Doese this make sense? All people need to learn patience and how to be kind to others. Isn't it a fair thing to say that some of the "smarter" kids need to learn patience while others catch up? Then, here's the real dilemma -- when I say that I bet the parent in you is saying, but then my kid will get behind? Won't work to his potential -- won't get ahead as fast as he could. True. But that's the dilemma of the school system. It isn't the teacher's fault. The teachers are doing the best they can with their situations.
I agree with you completely....that was actually the point I was making, but you stated it much better!
I agree Sonoma, very well said.
I think in the past parents respected the classroom as the teacher's domain and felt the school was not their territory... then something changed and now parents are constantly bothering teachers. I think I've been too hands off because i "get" how difficult it has to be with 25 kids... like, we waited for a teacher to recommend DS for the gifted program... later we found out they CAN'T... (they test for it in 2nd grade and if you don't live in the district then, they wait for the parents to initiate testing - didn't know that!
Same with the ADD stuff. We were thinking Adrian had a problem with this, but we were waiting for a teacher who works with him to say... "You know.. I think... " but again, they are NOT ALLOWED TO SAY ANYTHING!! UGH!!!
So... we initiated it on our own late last spring and are still going through all we need to do to get things better there.
Yet I KNWO tehre are parent's like emailing and calling teachers all the time... I just don't want to be that way because I would hate that if it were me! LOL
Melissa
Okay - I haven't read this entire thread, but I am also struggling with this. My daughter started 1st grade this year - and is already reading early 3rd grade level. Her K teacher was wonderful and I had no problems, but I am concerned about her new teacher, who still sends home basic 20 word books for her to read. I ignore them and let her read her chapter books. I am so afraid that she will become bored and and stop excelling - like my husband did. She also is a daydreamer. When I went in to see her teacher after 2 weeks of school, we discovered that she hadn't managed a journal entry yet - just the date! At least our school has a AIG nurturing program for K-2nd grade. Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated. We are not americans and so do not know the ins and outs of the system.
Okay - I haven't read this entire thread, but I am also struggling with this. My daughter started 1st grade this year - and is already reading early 3rd grade level. Her K teacher was wonderful and I had no problems, but I am concerned about her new teacher, who still sends home basic 20 word books for her to read. I ignore them and let her read her chapter books. I am so afraid that she will become bored and and stop excelling - like my husband did. She also is a daydreamer. When I went in to see her teacher after 2 weeks of school, we discovered that she hadn't managed a journal entry yet - just the date! At least our school has a AIG nurturing program for K-2nd grade. Any suggestions or advice would be appreciated. We are not americans and so do not know the ins and outs of the system.
As I noted earlier, the teacher has to present a unified curriculum, and since most of the kids may be at the 20 word book level, that's where they are. There is nothing to prevent you from talking to the teacher about her ability level. You might suggest that the teacher recommend some more advanced books your daughter can read at home and perhaps she can do a journal on that book? You could even do some dication with her if she's really verbal but just can't write it all out yet. Have her write what she can and then you do the rest. But, I do recommend that you also show your daughter how to work with the program that is presented. Have her read the book the teacher gives. Have her get the best marks for doing the work asked of her. That is a quality and ability that is wonderful to encourage in kids, since it is a real-world concept -- doing the work that is asked of you. Also, check and see if the school has an advanced reading program. My mom taught high level readers at the 4th grade level for years.
Good luck!
S.
Sonoma9.......can you define what a "unified curriculum" is?? If it's what I think it is--"grade level," average curriculum....then it will not work for every student. And I don't see any reason for any teacher to insist on using it. I have never felt the need to "have to" present a one-size fits all curriculum. To present an "average" curriculum to a gifted or challenged student and expect them "to deal with it" sends chills up my spine. I also have to disagree with your statement that gifted kids have to "learn patience" while others catch up. Patience is a virtue, but bright kids should not have to twiddle their thumbs while waiting for others who will NEVER catch up to grade level, or beyond.
I have a BA in English, a Master's in Reading/Language Arts; I'm a Reading Specialist who has taught high school Reading for 15 years and community college Reading and English for 8 years. I don't always use the same text for each kid, nor are my expectations for each kid the same. Some are gifted, some are main-streamed special ed., some are abused, some are ESL, some are homeless, some are hungry, some are pregnant, some are hostile and angry, some see education as a waste of time. The burden is on ME----not the student---to find what works best for them. That's what I get paid for.
I'm not trying to mean or hostile here; I sincerely believe that each teacher MUST work with each student to bring out the best in him/her. Gifted students cannot/should not have a unified curriculum forced on them any more than a special ed kid should. This is a lot of work for teachers and, as professionals, I believe that they should at least make the effort. Yes, class size does matter. Many factors come into play. "Standards" are a good thing, but it's simply not realistic to expect all students to meet those standards----some will always be below or above these expectations.
Again, I'm not trying to be confrontational. The bottom line is that teachers truly have to work very, very hard to help each and every kid--not matter how "outside the box" he or she is.
This is the BIGGEST, HUGEST problem with American schools - that we do have a unified curriculum. We are sooooo worried about treating every one the same, that the school isn't suited for ANYONE. In most other countried (and here too in the past). If you weren't good in school, you either quit or you went to a trade school. Only the brightest (who past tests) got to higher level schools.
I saw how unfair the curriculum was in my own family. I was pretty bright, not a genius , but bright and I never opened a book to study. I did my homework in the cafeteria right before it was due or rushed the night before. I SHOULD have been a straight A student, bu tiwth my home and faimly, just getting by was fine, so I got As and Bs - high enough to go to college.
My sister was a little slow. She spent HOURS doing homework and she still got a C or lower. She didn't even take hs algebra because she just couldn't get math AT ALL. When she got to be a senior, she wanted to go to college... WHAT??? I tried talking to her about trade school, about Community college, but no... she wanted to go to college with a 1.9 HS average and a low ACT score... and a private college barely keepig their doors open accepted her. She spent 3 years paying about $20,000 a year... she got a few grants, but about $12,000 a year was loans... She quit and had NO SKILLS and now $36,000 in student loans...
Now... how did the system work for her? She should have NEVER been allowed to DREAM about going to a 4 year college, sorry... it's not for everyone and she could have been very successful in something else if she had LEARNED to do something else.
In other countries straight from hs kids can be mechanics or nurse aids or other such things... but here??? it gets you NOTHING... it doesn't work.
And I took disagree that a gifted kid should learn to be patient while others catch up. Learning that not everyone is as quick as they are is good... but torturing them so that they HATE school and slow people is not.
We actually WANTED Adrian to go to a school where he was in all GT because we wanted him to be around other GT kids so that he learned he wasn't always the fastest, smartest or best in everything... He ALSO needed to learn that there will ALWAYS be someoe HIGHER/SMARTER than he is... isn't that just as valuable to learn?
Melissa
Sonoma9.......can you define what a "unified curriculum" is?? If it's what I think it is--"grade level," average curriculum....then it will not work for every student. And I don't see any reason for any teacher to insist on using it. I have never felt the need to "have to" present a one-size fits all curriculum. To present an "average" curriculum to a gifted or challenged student and expect them "to deal with it" sends chills up my spine. I also have to disagree with your statement that gifted kids have to "learn patience" while others catch up. Patience is a virtue, but bright kids should not have to twiddle their thumbs while waiting for others who will NEVER catch up to grade level, or beyond.
I have a BA in English, a Master's in Reading/Language Arts; I'm a Reading Specialist who has taught high school Reading for 15 years and community college Reading and English for 8 years. I don't always use the same text for each kid, nor are my expectations for each kid the same. Some are gifted, some are main-streamed special ed., some are abused, some are ESL, some are homeless, some are hungry, some are pregnant, some are hostile and angry, some see education as a waste of time. The burden is on ME----not the student---to find what works best for them. That's what I get paid for.
I'm not trying to mean or hostile here; I sincerely believe that each teacher MUST work with each student to bring out the best in him/her. Gifted students cannot/should not have a unified curriculum forced on them any more than a special ed kid should. This is a lot of work for teachers and, as professionals, I believe that they should at least make the effort. Yes, class size does matter. Many factors come into play. "Standards" are a good thing, but it's simply not realistic to expect all students to meet those standards----some will always be below or above these expectations.
Again, I'm not trying to be confrontational. The bottom line is that teachers truly have to work very, very hard to help each and every kid--not matter how "outside the box" he or she is.
lsawyer, I commend you on your academic achievements! ( Imean this sincerely.) You certainly have a lot of experience in the classroom as well, though it sounds like you have mainly worked in resource classes, which are much smaller usually. If I am in error about your situation, please forgive the assumption on my part.
You may be surprised to hear that I agree with you that a teacher's job is to meet the student where he/she is and move them forward from there. I did it every day for 15 years too -- seniors, juniors, and sophomores. I have also taught freshman public speaking, computers, yearbook, and a specialized class students who needed extra help adjusting to high school. I have taught everything from Advanced Placement English to freshman summer school. (I am taking this year off to be home with my 2 little ones. 
I am an English Literature major as well, so we have that in common. I have been on 2 district curriculum committees, and I've been head of my department. It sounds like we both have done quite a bit.
I am not a teacher who recycles curriculum or who uses a one-size fits all approach to my students. That said, by a unified curriculum, I mean this -- if I am going to teach Hamlet, then everyone is going to read it from the same text during the lesson. If they need extra help reading it, they will be given an easier version to review at home. If they have already read it, they will be given extra reading or work to do beyond what they have learned, but they will do it outside of the class time BECAUSE -- most of the kids don't need the extra help that these 2 examples need. They need to hear and see Hamlet in the original text, and they need me to teach it to them. The ones who know something about it can help those who don't know. The ones who need extra help can get it from me as we go. I made a promise to my students that they would NEVER NOT UNDERSTAND SOMETHING I TAUGHT. I kept that promise if it meant meeting with them before school, at lunch, after school, or having e-mail discussions.
HOWEVER, at some point, the curriculum must be unified. I believe it is a disservice to kids to have them each working on "their own thing" during a lesson most days. (It's okay occasionally obviously, just not as a rule.) The students can benefit from one another -- no one should be allowed to "twiddle their thumbs". Didn't happen in my class. My kids weren't always thrilled that I had them on task the entire period.
By "dealing with it" I meant that they have to learn to work with others who aren't able to do the same as they are. This is compassion. This is the real world. This is how we learn to work together. They may be the most brilliant kid on the planet, but if they can't work with others who aren't as "gifted" as they are, then they haven't got the gift of compromise. They don't know how to help others. They also feel that they have nothing to learn from anyone else, and this is a very poor attitude to grow up with. We all have things to learn.
One of the things that I told my kids every year was that the reason I never got bored teaching Hamlet, etc. (the same books every year) was that they THE STUDENTS always brought something new to it. They are unique, they have insights. It's always fresh. I always had the highest expectations for my students, and I expected everyone to do their level best. Because I had high expectations, everyone felt challenged, but I can't say that every day was the most challenging for every single student all the time.
What sends a chill up my spine are people who tell these kids that they are so much better than their peers that their peers have nothing to offer them (in either direction). This is belittling to everyone else and it makes everyone lose out on learning something new. There will always be a child who isn't as able to go as far as another. You're saying that just because a child is slower, they both shouldn't have the benefit of learning how to work with one another. Don't you agree that the "brighter" child can actually learn more by actually helping out the "average" child?
I do think there are times when different readings are appropriate, but if my lesson plan is to teach a particular book, then I want all the kids to read that book and do the lessons I set out. Sometimes those lessons were easier, sometimes not. If some can read it faster, then I will adjust for them after they have done what I asked them to do. This is also real world. When they get a job and they think the work is beneath their level, are they not going to do the work asked of them first? To me, that is an essential life skill too.
Believe me -- I know how hard most teachers work. THat's why I said what I said before. I certainly worked my tail off, and I wouldn't have it any other way. And, I'm sure my response is so long that most haven't read this far, but this subject is very important to me, and although I'm in no way offended by what you said, I have to admit that you did come across with a very confrontational tone. That's okay, just please don't read any malice or harshness in my reply either. I'm just standing up for myself given what you had to say.
S.
This is the BIGGEST, HUGEST problem with American schools - that we do have a unified curriculum. We are sooooo worried about treating every one the same, that the school isn't suited for ANYONE. In most other countried (and here too in the past). If you weren't good in school, you either quit or you went to a trade school. Only the brightest (who past tests) got to higher level schools.
I saw how unfair the curriculum was in my own family. I was pretty bright, not a genius , but bright and I never opened a book to study. I did my homework in the cafeteria right before it was due or rushed the night before. I SHOULD have been a straight A student, bu tiwth my home and faimly, just getting by was fine, so I got As and Bs - high enough to go to college.
My sister was a little slow. She spent HOURS doing homework and she still got a C or lower. She didn't even take hs algebra because she just couldn't get math AT ALL. When she got to be a senior, she wanted to go to college... WHAT??? I tried talking to her about trade school, about Community college, but no... she wanted to go to college with a 1.9 HS average and a low ACT score... and a private college barely keepig their doors open accepted her. She spent 3 years paying about $20,000 a year... she got a few grants, but about $12,000 a year was loans... She quit and had NO SKILLS and now $36,000 in student loans...
Now... how did the system work for her? She should have NEVER been allowed to DREAM about going to a 4 year college, sorry... it's not for everyone and she could have been very successful in something else if she had LEARNED to do something else.
In other countries straight from hs kids can be mechanics or nurse aids or other such things... but here??? it gets you NOTHING... it doesn't work.
And I took disagree that a gifted kid should learn to be patient while others catch up. Learning that not everyone is as quick as they are is good... but torturing them so that they HATE school and slow people is not.
We actually WANTED Adrian to go to a school where he was in all GT because we wanted him to be around other GT kids so that he learned he wasn't always the fastest, smartest or best in everything... He ALSO needed to learn that there will ALWAYS be someoe HIGHER/SMARTER than he is... isn't that just as valuable to learn?
Melissa
I just wanted to say that I agree with you about the "one size fits all" view about college. Americans do think that a four-year college is the only way to go. It shouldn't be that way. It truly isn't for everyone. Trade schools in Europe are considered just as respectable. It isn't so here.
I also agree that kids need to learn that they aren't always the smartest, but there will always be a smartest in some area. Where does that kid go? And, the assumption then is that your child will be the smartest one in the "Average" class. Everyone's got talents and gifts in some areas, yes?
As for torturing kids -- well, there I do have to say it might be the teacher's fault if the kid hates school. However, that's not always the case. But just for the sake of argument, let's say it is -- the teacher's fault. Learning to help others and teaching them actually teaches the "smarter" child more in the long run. Teaching something is the best way to learn. Since when is helping other torture? And I can honestly say that I've only met a handful of students who knew everything (and I mean every single thing) about a subject. There's always more to learn. The problem with many of these children is that they don't think they have more to learn.
I think the assumption here is that the teacher isn't dealing with the kids on their level at all, while still maintaining a unified curriculum. It is possible to do both. That said, I know that there are teachers out there who skate by -- who don't serve their students well. This is sad. They don't treat each class uniquely each year. They don't "go with the flow" of their classes and make adjustments. They teach to the lowest common denominator. This is wrong. I stand behind any parent who challenges a teacher who does this.
It's funny about wanting kids to be around similar IQs -- that's called tracking - which became a HUGE NO NO word for many years in education. It was considered elitist. Now, tracking (although it's given different names) is making a comeback. The eduation pendulum swings back and forth about every 10 years I think.
The best part of this thread is that everyone here is a concerned parent who is willing to get involved 
, and that is the most needed thing in the schools! Without parents who are willing to get involved, kids slip through the cracks. I always encourage parents to get involved, something which at the high school level isn't always easy. Never give up on your kids as I've watched some parents do.
S.
I realize that teachers have to look out for the overall class but there is a way to do this and allow students to work at there own pace. my DS last year had a wonderful first grade teacher I cannot express how wonderful seh was enough. In her classroom yes there was a uniformed general idea however the books she sent home for reading were indivisualized for each child at there level she knew the kids knew where the were and what they needed as far as math she had the papers at the front of the class room and a student could take as little or as many papers as they would like as long as they took like 2 a week I think and that allowed kiddos that work at a slower pace to keep in the lower level math problems while kids like my DS took home 4 or 5 papers a day of his own doing I never said he had to. He just liked doing them he liked challenging himslef seeing how many he could do. so there is a way to present a uniform courseload and indivisuals it for each child. By the way i'am one of those moms that call the teacher almost weekly I dont intend to bother her but I have every right to know how my child is doing in her classroom 8 hours a day when i was a SAHM I was in the classroom all day at least once a week. Talk about being bored the teacher gave a math test in class the other day 25 problems in 2 mins my son did 2 because his mind just went somewhere else she had him stay in after class and repeat the test he did all 25 problems correctly in under a minute if that doesnt tell the teacher he needs something a little more challenging then i dont know what will.
Sonama9....thank you for your response. No, I do not take offense to any of your comments, nor do I think it's hostile.
I do not work in resources classes. Additionally, I teach in college classes. I'm also a free-lance editor for educational texts, I used to work for a magazine publisher, I have taught technical reading/writing classes, have served on ed committees, and have been a teacher for teachers.
Yes, it appears that we do have a lot in common! Literature is beautiful, isn't it?
I'm glad to hear that you do not use a one-size fits all approach to teaching. This truly does warm my heart. I understand what you say about the HAMLET analogy. If this is what you mean by a unified curriculum, then it makes perfect sense. Thank you for clarifying this. I was speaking more towards the OP's concern re gifted student whose needs are not being met.
You sound like a great teacher, and I tip my hat to you.
You wrote:
"By "dealing with it" I meant that they have to learn to work with others who aren't able to do the same as they are. This is compassion. This is the real world. This is how we learn to work together. They may be the most brilliant kid on the planet, but if they can't work with others who aren't as "gifted" as they are, then they haven't got the gift of compromise. They don't know how to help others. They also feel that they have nothing to learn from anyone else, and this is a very poor attitude to grow up with. We all have things to learn."
This is an important and valid point. There are many opportunities for this in the classroom. But, getting back to the OP's concerns, I sincerely believe that her child should not be sacrificed in the process. Their needs should be met. They aren't in Reading to learn compassion.
You wrote:
"What sends a chill up my spine are people who tell these kids that they are so much better than their peers that their peers have nothing to offer them (in either direction)."
I do not support an elitist attitude, and I hope that teachers don't do this. This is chilling. My friend's son was in a pull-out gifted program, and they returned to their classes with an "I am Special" sticker on their shirts. This is horrid!
You wrtoe:
"You're saying that just because a child is slower, they both shouldn't have the benefit of learning how to work with one another. Don't you agree that the "brighter" child can actually learn more by actually helping out the "average" child? "
No.....I'm not saying this at all. They should learn how to get along with all different levels of people. But......I don't think their needs should be neglected, either. In regards to, "Don't you agree that the "brighter" child can actually learn more by actually helping out the "average" child? " With all due respect, I don't agree with this at all. What can the average child teach the brighter child in terms of academics? (Again, in respect to the OP's concerns.) I absolutely, positively hated/resented this in grades k-12. Those students held me back/bored me. I had a college professor who pulled this crap; again, I resented it and lost respect for him. Students are in school to learn, not to teach. I use cross-teaching strategies only when the levels are just slight in abilities. Then it can serve as reinforcement, and the "teacher' kid doesn't resent it--he/she sees it more as a service. But when you're talking about a 2+ grade difference, it's a disaster for the brighter kid.
You wrote:
"When they get a job and they think the work is beneath their level, are they not going to do the work asked of them first? To me, that is an essential life skill too."
Ummmm.....I don't think too many people--bright or otherwise---will stay too long in a job that is beneath their level. They'll use it as a stepping stone to build up their resume, but they won't stay long.
Again, I don't take your comments in a hostile manner, nor do I mean to be hostile. You truly seem sincere, and it's apparent that your heart is in the right place. It's OK if we disagree. I trust that the OP will benefit from all points of view.
Keep smiling-----and happy baking!!!
lsawyer,
Thank you so much for clarifying! It's so hard sometimes in posts to get all the meaning. I thougth so much about this after I replied. I fear that I may have made it seem that it's okay for any child to be bored for extended periods of time, days, units, etc. I do not see a problem with a child having 15 minutes at the end of a class to be "bored" at times. I do think that there is a common problem with kids today that they can't sit with themselves for even 2 minutes without saying, "I'm bored." It's especially hard when everyone runs around trying to make them not bored. But that's a different issue.
It is never okay for a child to not be challenged and exprience growth. If a brighter child is in a "regular" class, then it's up to the teacher to make sure that all the children are experiencing growth. This can be done with a unified curriculum, as you noted in your last post. I never meant to imply that any child shouldn't keep growing and learning.
I may have been focusing too much on the fact idea that all children can help one another, and I think in a school setting, this is vital. But, never at the expense of any child's education. I'm very sorry if this is how I came across.
The OPs title was directed at "dumb teachers." I really wanted to stand up for those teachers, like you and I, who must also work within an organized structure, who have curriculum deadlines to meet, etc. My original point was that if every child had an IEP, then there's no way 1 teacher could meet the needs of every child. The schools make it seem that their child will be taken care of because of the IEP. This isn't always the case. Have you found this to be true?
In the end, I think that most teachers are trying their best to meet the needs of their students. Are there some who are disgruntled, incapable, or irresponsible, yes. But, if I as a parent felt that were the case with my child, I would have them moved out of that class. Nothing will make that teacher any better. If the teacher is trying to do the best they can, I would work with that teacher to come to a solution and not assume that they are "dumb."
I so appreciate that another teacher is replying here-- sometimes I feel alone. And, as for literature -- love it, love it, love it! I must admit that I mentioned Hamlet because I'm missing it this year. I guess any excuse to bring up the Bard will do! 
S.
I realize that teachers have to look out for the overall class but there is a way to do this and allow students to work at there own pace. my DS last year had a wonderful first grade teacher I cannot express how wonderful seh was enough. In her classroom yes there was a uniformed general idea however the books she sent home for reading were indivisualized for each child at there level she knew the kids knew where the were and what they needed as far as math she had the papers at the front of the class room and a student could take as little or as many papers as they would like as long as they took like 2 a week I think and that allowed kiddos that work at a slower pace to keep in the lower level math problems while kids like my DS took home 4 or 5 papers a day of his own doing I never said he had to. He just liked doing them he liked challenging himslef seeing how many he could do. so there is a way to present a uniform courseload and indivisuals it for each child. By the way i'am one of those moms that call the teacher almost weekly I dont intend to bother her but I have every right to know how my child is doing in her classroom 8 hours a day when i was a SAHM I was in the classroom all day at least once a week. Talk about being bored the teacher gave a math test in class the other day 25 problems in 2 mins my son did 2 because his mind just went somewhere else she had him stay in after class and repeat the test he did all 25 problems correctly in under a minute if that doesnt tell the teacher he needs something a little more challenging then i dont know what will.
I'm really glad to hear that you had a teacher like this. I must point out, however, that this is a 1st grade classroom -- which I realize is what the OP was talking about. It is possible to do things like this in the lower grades. I would be wary of this in high school levels though. Math might work because there's only one answer (usually!) in math. In reading, however, there are many avenues. I disagree with English teachers that let their students read "whatever" for a unified assignment and then actually grade an assignment to do with that book when the teacher has not read the work him/herself. Some English teachers will say that they can "tell" whether or not the student read the book and that they don't have to read it to grade the work. I think this is hogwash. If I haven't read the book, I've no business commenting on it. A 1st grade teacher can easily read and probably knows all the books the kids read - but not always, true. I just believe that a teacher needs to know the content of something before being qualified to grade it.
Again, I'm really glad that your situation worked out. Perhaps I've not a lot of business talking here because I'm really focusing on the high school level and everyone here is talking about grades 1-4 really. Hope I haven't brought any confusion or undue angst here.
S.
Sonoma9.....thanks for your response. I do believe we're both on the same page re how to help kids.
I didn't take the OP's "Dumb Teachers" title to heart, and it appears that the teacher may be making a dumb decision if she insists on keeping a kid in a low-level reading program when's he's years ahead. I have found that 99% of teachers are great, but there will always be a few who can't/won't do what's best for the kid. If that's the case, then I encourage parents to keep fighting for their kid.
Yes, IEP's can be tricky. So far, I've been able to keep up. It's not always easy, especially when the kids don't want to cooperate. I had one student who was diagnosed with ADHD; I KNEW he wasn't, but he was a real pain. I ran into him at the mall a year later and he apologized for his behavior.......said he was addicted to cocaine at the time, but now he was clean.
I do all that I can to eliminate boredom.....that's when they'll disturb others and find some kind of trouble to get into.
I hope you get HAMLET back! I studied Shakespeare for 1-1/2 years in college. Loved it!
You sound like a great teacher! Your students are lucky to have you.
Happy teaching!
I didn't take the OP's "Dumb Teachers" title to heart, and it appears that the teacher may be making a dumb decision if she insists on keeping a kid in a low-level reading program when's he's years ahead. I have found that 99% of teachers are great, but there will always be a few who can't/won't do what's best for the kid. If that's the case, then I encourage parents to keep fighting for their kid.
The dumb teachers comment was in reference to the fact that they had been told by another teacher who had my child last year that he was too far above the work, had been told by me what he's been reading on his own and yet they still just decided that he'd be fine sitting with them all WITHOUT TESTING HIM OR DOING ANY ASSESSMENTS. With 2 teachers (real teachers, not a teacher and an aide) and 20 kids it shouldn't be too hard to keep track of things with IEPs, it's not like they have 35 kids and one teacher, I'd be a little more forgiving about that.
They're still giving me lines about "skills" after he tested at end of the year 6th grade level for comprehension and between 7-8 grades for vocab and spelling. I've heard from a couple different sources that the "skills" line is because they don't know what to do with him. The current thing they're talking about is testing a few other kids and putting them together in a group but when asked about what if they're 2 years behind or ahead was told that it wouldn't matter. 
My child isn't in school to teach other kids, he's there to learn. I'd much rather they set him in the back with his own work to do independently than make him help someone if it's frustrating him, some people aren't cut out to be teachers. He's also not learning compassion sitting there bored, he's learning to think that the other kids aren't as good as him at something.
We don't tell him he's the brightest thing ever and best at everything, this child has some very strong areas but others that aren't so great. We have had several talks to the effect that some of the kids who aren't in GT or are slow might be better at art or sports than he is, fine motor skills are not this child's strong points, and that a kid who isn't as good at reading might be better at math than he is, everyone has talents they just might not be academic. Parents are probably far better teachers of compassion than sitting in a room bored to death.
The dumb teachers comment was in reference to the fact that they had been told by another teacher who had my child last year that he was too far above the work, had been told by me what he's been reading on his own and yet they still just decided that he'd be fine sitting with them all WITHOUT TESTING HIM OR DOING ANY ASSESSMENTS.
I can understand why this must be so frustrating for you. Given that I don't know this particular teacher, this may seem out of line, but just to give a little more perspective...many teachers don't like to listen to previous year's teachers because their expereinces aren't always accurate with how the child is. (Some teachers will talk about how hard or slow a child is but the next year's teacher doesn't find that to be the case.) And, many times teachers won't listen very carefully to parents because many, many, many parents think their child is "gifted" or whatever. I'm not saying that this is the case here -- again, I don't know the teacher, but I'm just trying to give you some insights into how teachers act sometimes. I agree that assessments should be made -- that is essential.
With 2 teachers (real teachers, not a teacher and an aide) and 20 kids it shouldn't be too hard to keep track of things with IEPs, it's not like they have 35 kids and one teacher, I'd be a little more forgiving about that.
That is a much better deal than most have. [/b]
They're still giving me lines about "skills" after he tested at end of the year 6th grade level for comprehension and between 7-8 grades for vocab and spelling. I've heard from a couple different sources that the "skills" line is because they don't know what to do with him.
This may be the case, but what the teachers say may be very valid too. Since you're focused on reading, it's sometimes hard to see that there may be more "skills" to learn even though your child reads at such a high level. Some children can test well in math, but they still don't know everything yet about certain levels. Kids do need as many building blocks as possible in order to continue to succeed. Many times I had super bright kids at the high school level who couldn't write a coherent paragraph because they had never been taught structure. They had bounced along with excellent test scores, but they had never received all the building blocks they needed. Again, I'm not saying this is the case here, just more insights to consider.
The current thing they're talking about is testing a few other kids and putting them together in a group but when asked about what if they're 2 years behind or ahead was told that it wouldn't matter.
Not sure what this means -- sounds confusing! I wouldn't definitely keep questioning this idea!
My child isn't in school to teach other kids, he's there to learn.
True, but there are times when teaching is the best way to learn all the ins and outs of a subject or skill. It's actually done all the time when kids are paired up. Small groups are used all the time (too much so in my opinion) at the lower grades. I'm not saying that the responsiblity should fall to them, but it is a good strategy to use among many that should be used.
I'd much rather they set him in the back with his own work to do independently than make him help someone if it's frustrating him, some people aren't cut out to be teachers.
If this is the case, then it's the teacher's fault because the grouping hasn't been set up properly. Definitely, if it isn't working, then he shouldn't have to work with a student who is frustrating him, but again, group work is used every day in the lower grades.
He's also not learning compassion sitting there bored, he's learning to think that the other kids aren't as good as him at something.
Again, I think this is the teacher's fault. A child needn't be bored unless he's unwilling to do the work and makes himself "bored." Not saying this is the case here, but I've seen that a million times too. Work must be purposeful, and it's the teacher's job to make it so if the student can't see it for themselves.
We don't tell him he's the brightest thing ever and best at everything, this child has some very strong areas but others that aren't so great. We have had several talks to the effect that some of the kids who aren't in GT or are slow might be better at art or sports than he is, fine motor skills are not this child's strong points, and that a kid who isn't as good at reading might be better at math than he is, everyone has talents they just might not be academic. Parents are probably far better teachers of compassion than sitting in a room bored to death.
It is always my hope that compassion is taught from all people in a child's life...they will learn it better that way. Parents are definitely at the forefront, but teachers spend a great deal of time with a child every day -- they are influencers too.
I am in no way trying to put down your efforts or sound confrontational. I believe fully that parent involvement is key to helping a child succeed. I'm just giving some insights from a high school teacher's point of view about this kind of area. If you think it doesn't apply to your situation -- no worries. The parent in me understands your frustration. The teacher in me understands the nature of some of the problems teachers face every day. Again, I hope that the situation is fully resolved to your satisfaction and that your child has a wonderful year!
S.
And may I, an English, Speech, Communications, Theatre, Media teacher of now 32 years and a former(!) yearbook adviser of 5 years and now newspaper adviser (smile) of 4 years and counting add:
While "unified" is easy and egalitarian with certain synergies to be achieved by having the accelerated students interact, if not even tutor, the less academically inclined;
While giving the accelerated students additional independent reading to accomplish at home does support them in achieving a more advanced understanding of the work at hand;
Both of these techniques do not allow the academically gifted to interact fully with their peers and reach their full potential as a result of the challenges they will present to each other through this interaction.
Consider: scientists, researchers and their ilk do not got to talk to their car mechanics, hair dressers, lawn person to discuss the concepts, ideas and random thoughts about their area of specialty. Rather, they interact with like minded and trained individuals realizing these individuals will best be able to challenge them to think more deeply and fully as well as provide inspiration for new insights.
To deny our AG students this opportunity to interact with their like-minded peers is wrong and is an impediment to their developing their full potential.
A personal example: due to my severe lack of "skills" in English, specifically, that I can not spell I was place in a "normal" track English class in 9th grade in high school, despite my reading at a freshman in college level. So, I sat there bored to tears. Luckily, my 9th grade English teacher let me read anything I wanted in class so long as my work was in and I participated in the group work. My district did not allow any "upgrading" to an honors class until the 10th grade. Thankfully, with the switch from junior high (the old version of middle school) to senior high and a new counselor, my mother's cousin, I was finally allowed to "attempt" the honors class. Well, glorioski, guess how achieved mostly A's on his assignments that weren't graded for spelling and penmanship (another skill I lack)? With the switch to Honors English came switches to Honors History and Honors Science were I finally felt fully challenged. (Note the lack of Honors Math: another suspect skill. Let us just say that with the exception of Geometry, my math abilities kept my poor teachers just shaking their heads in sorrow. We won't even talk about my total failure at PE -- Coordination? What's that? To which my BC deco'ed cakes bear witness!)
Yes, tracking became a "dirty word," but it is time to insist on "differentiated instruction" so that each child might have full opportunity to excel at his or her own pace. Thus, the truly slow at a subject (or clueless as in my case with spelling and only slightly better with math) can get all the extra help they need (TG for the Goggle tool bar that's checking my spelling as I type) and the gifted in whatever area can speed ahead.
The system will not be fair until we recognize that children can be gifted in more ways than just math, English, Science. That giftedness can include physical ability (the athlete, the dancer), music, acting, and on. I find the work on multiple intelligences to dead on in finally recognizing there is more to "smarts" than the traditional verbal and mathematical skills tested on most IQ tests and the infamous SAT.
To all you fighting the battle to see that each child is properly challenged and helped, keep up the fight.
-----
a final comment: yes, Bill's "Ham-hock" (my nickname for it as that is what he needs applied swiftly to side of head while shouting "DO SOMETHING!!!!!") is a great play for the high school set. So like them: should I or shouldn't I, and then acting rashly all the same)
I can understand why this must be so frustrating for you. Given that I don't know this particular teacher, this may seem out of line, but just to give a little more perspective...many teachers don't like to listen to previous year's teachers because their expereinces aren't always accurate with how the child is. (Some teachers will talk about how hard or slow a child is but the next year's teacher doesn't find that to be the case.) And, many times teachers won't listen very carefully to parents because many, many, many parents think their child is "gifted" or whatever. I'm not saying that this is the case here -- again, I don't know the teacher, but I'm just trying to give you some insights into how teachers act sometimes. I agree that assessments should be made -- that is essential.
Again, I think this is the teacher's fault. A child needn't be bored unless he's unwilling to do the work and makes himself "bored." Not saying this is the case here, but I've seen that a million times too. Work must be purposeful, and it's the teacher's job to make it so if the student can't see it for themselves.
The thing with the teachers not listening is I brought in some test scores from last year, his teachers from the year before talked to him and if they had any doubts the vice principal from grades k-2 knows his case well, both GT teachers are very familiar with him and they could have checked test records. I'm not saying that they should have taken my word, I know that there are too many parents who do this, I'm just saying that with the student/teacher ratio and the knowledge they had been given from people they should have been willing to check it out instead of just deciding how they were going to do it. They weren't telling us to wait a couple weeks until they got the class organized and then they'd look into it either, they had already made up their minds without gathering ANY data.
And the thing about a kid making himself bored. The average adult reads at a middle school level so you would expect them to sit through a third grade reading class as a student for a full year, act and be treated like one of the kids and not be bored? It would be their fault if they were? The teacher should be able to show them the purpose of this work if they can't see it themselves? What would the purpose of this work be? How would these adults feel and react to this? My child reads at a middle school level, why do we expect kids like this to sit and act better than we would an adult? If it's not okay to expect it of an adult why a kid? Because they're the age they "should" be doing that work? An adult who's bored at work has the option of quiting and at least is getting paid to be there, for a child there is no tangible reward for being in a classroom, from their point of view if they're not benifiting from an education and if they aren't learning anything they aren't getting one. My child loves learning, he has a very good attitude about it. Some kids like it best when the work is easy and they don't have to try, my child hates that and WANTS a challenge so as long as reading is hard he's happy. He picks books to read on his own that are hard instead of sticking with books that are easy, he's always been far more willing to struggle through books than sit and do what he knows.
Doug -- my teacher's hat is off to you! You've truly seen a lot in that time. My comment about "tracking" wasn't exactly to say that I disagreed with it, just that, as you know, it did become a bad word and now they're giving it other names, ie -- pathways, academies, etc. Actually, I'm on the fence about this one. The more advanced kids can move ahead, but then the slower ones really don't do as well when they're all grouped together at time. Then again, I've taught summer school classes where everyone did really well (slower kids or not high achievers) because they felt they were in a more comfortable zone. So perhaps I do fall a bit more on the tracking side of the tracks. But, the reality is that there's a huge "middle ground" out there and there's always kids in those classes who are at the top. How can we "track" for everyone? I taught AP, and it was truly an AP, where all but one kid was advanced. Nowadays, at least at the school I've taught at for the last 7 years, they have "opened" the clases to virtually anyone who tries out. They make exceptions, etc. The classes aren't full of truly "advanced" kids. Do they do that at your school? I'd be interested to know how prevelant this is. (Oh, and I can't spell well either!) I don't agree that unified instruction is egalitarian in nature because I'm not saying that everyone will have the same outcome. I don't expect them to. I have very high standards, so the work I give is of a higher level. I'm accused of being too much like an honors class a lot. But, I truly believe and have seen that kids will do better and more when the expectations are higher. So, perhaps the teachers being discussed here are "ARGGH" ditto teachers.
Mbelgard --
I said in my last post that I may not have a place in this discussion because I'm coming from a high school teacher's standpoint. I don't think a teacher should give all work that bores a child. However, I stand by the fact that no one teacher can give unique work for every child. The work should never be dumbed down. That said, not every assignment will be challenging for all -- and that is when I believe a child can help another child. If no work is challenging, then I agree that is a problem. Again, the grade levels you're talking about are so different than at the high school level. But let me ask you this -- what exactly do you want the teacher to do if your son reads at the 7th grade level? (I can't remember exactly what it was, but something like that?) Do you want the teacher to read everything that your son reads so that she can evaluate his work properly? What if there are a number of other children in the class who are also at higher reading levels? How much preparation (prep work) can one teacher do and still evalutate adequately and also have a life? I'm not being argumentative, I'm just wondering what everyone thinks? I've got a teacher friend who says it's possible. I don't agree, but then she teaches 7th/8th, and I'm teaching 10-12. It's very different. I'm sorry the teacher didn't communicate better with you or listen better. I don't like the "deaf ear" from teachers either. Hope you and Doug see these posts, and please let us/me know how it turns out. I truly hope it finds a successful resolution!
S.
Sonoma9.............I just had to respond to your comment:
"But, I truly believe and have seen that kids will do better and more when the expectations are higher."
This is soooooo true! I stopped giving out "D" grades after two years of teaching. Anything below a "C" (70%) is an "F." I do this for both my college students and my 9th-12th grade students. It works! Many students have confessed that they were hoping to pass with a D, but they get with it when they find out I don't operate that way. Any F work (or test) has to be re-done until it receives at least a C. Oh, and this make-up work has to be done on their own time (including before/after school, during lunch, or at home if it's not a test), not during class time.
As a older mother of a gifted child, let me offer some advice. We kept him at grade level for social skills, because it is hard enough for an advanced child to be able to have friends. Fortunately he was in a gifted class most of his school days. His teachers mostly were wonderful at allowing him to go as far as he could in each subject. We also encouraged him to do research on any subject he was interested in at the time. I know much more about railroads than I ever wanted to know!!! He really wasn't challenged until grad school and now he is getting it back by teaching at AFIT grad school. My advice is to encourage outside interests, listen, and be there. Sometimes it is all we as moms can do.
sonoma9, lsawyer and doug, I have sincerely enjoying all of your contributions to this thread! Kudos and my admiration/respect to all of you and for sharing your experiences and expertise with all of us.
berryblonde, I cannot for the life of me comprehend where you are coming from when you say you dont' want to be one of those parents who "bothers" the teacher; that you waited for someone ELSE to request ADD testing or class advancement.
THIS IS YOUR CHILD! YOU are the primary responsible person, the person your child depends on to see that they get every opportunity available to them. It is YOUR job to contact the school and make the effort to work with them on behalf of your child. It is NOT your job to sit back and wait for everyone else to do it for you.
Unfortunately, you sound like one of those women that I tend to rant about ...... you were taught, as a little girl, to be "nice" and not to "bother" anyone. Then people wonder why women tend to sit back and not get ahead as compared to men who were taught to push forward.
I am not BOTHERING my child's teacher when I contact them or talk with them. It is my CHILD I am talking about. They better not dare consider it a "bother" when I contact them ..... and I dont' think any of them do.
I thought my son had ADD in 4th grade. *I* went to the school and requested the testing. THey jumped on it immediately and we discovered he had a genius IQ. They gave him harder work and he went from B's and C's to straight A's. He was the typical "bored in class" kid and when he was properly challenged, he thrived.
His teacher contacted me because he was getting big headed about it, which was disruptive in class. We pinned his ears back big time. I bluntly told him, "You inherited your brains from one of your parents and I am here to tell you it wasn't your dad! So don't think for one minute you can out maneuver ME on this, young man!" (They wanted to pass me up a couple of grades but my parents wouldn't let them.) With these actions, we worked WITH the teacher to assure my son was getting the education he deserved .... and part of that education was making sure he was aware that he was STILL expected to behave properly.
By the way, this is the same son who set U.S. Marine history by being the FIRST to get a perfect score on three tests the Marines have been giving for 20 years. His platoon was composed of the top 10% of his class and he was the platoon leader because he had the highest scores of anyone. This is the same son who was twice decorated thru 2 tours of Iraq, including the Purple Heart and a medal for taking over and securing the platoon until reinforcements could arrive to evacuate them. (yes, I AM a proud mom!)
Hubby and I talk frequently how the NCLB just results in the standards being lowered so that no child is left behind. In the meantime, INdiana's SAT scores continue to drop year after year after year. Then they wonder why we have a "brain-drain" problem.
It is unfortunate that not all schools have a good gifted program or that don't recognize the special needs of children like ours. Until that happens, we as parents have to act as our child's advocate and push forward to ensure our child's needs are being met just as much as any other child. If you have to work with your state senator or state representative to get it fixed, then do it!!
It's your CHILD we are talking about here! THey have one chance to go thru school. DON'T let it be wasted!!!
Indydebi-- I love the fact that you were also willing to listen to the teacher when she told you that your son was getting a big head. So many parents want to say, "Well, he IS smart." I always want to respond with, "And so are many other children, and even IF he is the smartest (which no child is in EVERYTHING), he has to live with the rest of us. Don't you want him to also be kind? Smart is not everything." (I was told this often enough as a child.)
I agree-- parent contact is NOT a bother-- except when it's constant and about minor things (and believe me, there are parents who want to examine and nit-pick every question on every test and every point on every assignment). NOT when it is about an ongoing issue or concern or when it is about something medical (diabetes, allergies, etc.)
I guess the thing to go for is "balance"-- don't be afraid to contact the teacher when needed, but try not to go overboard. Advocate for your child, but don't let him/her get the idea that he/she is the best thing that ever hit the school system and therefore the rules don't apply. Actually that "balance" thing applies to most areas of life . . .
I agree-- parent contact is NOT a bother-- except when it's constant and about minor things (and believe me, there are parents who want to examine and nit-pick every question on every test and every point on every assignment). NOT when it is about an ongoing issue or concern or when it is about something medical (diabetes, allergies, etc.)
I guess the thing to go for is "balance"-- don't be afraid to contact the teacher when needed, but try not to go overboard. Advocate for your child, but don't let him/her get the idea that he/she is the best thing that ever hit the school system and therefore the rules don't apply. Actually that "balance" thing applies to most areas of life . . .
From the teachers I know they don't seem to mind talking to the parents about issues and stuff. The parents I hear complained about are the ones who don't use common sense about it or think their kids are angels. A relative of my husband has a bad rep with the teachers because they've insisted a few times that their kid needs moved out of rooms because the teachers are "mean" to him and the last complaint was that he was being put in a room for trouble makers. What else would you call a kid who starts a fist fight in the hall in first grade?
We try to be reasonable in what we expect, I'm willing to compromise but I can't let him just sit there and be bored with the reading. If they would let him sit on the side with his own work I'd be happy, he hasn't had what you could call reading instruction since kindergarten so we aren't worried about having a teacher sit and go over stuff with him. No one has taught him how to read or spell the way he does, it almost seems like instinct the way he picks it up. The last actual work he did in spelling was 3rd grade level and reading was 5th so we don't know where he learned to spell the way he does. I guess I think that his time would be better spent reading a book just for fun than sitting and doing busy work because he's at the age he's "supposed" to do it. I get upset about implications that if they know the work at their grade level that it's okay for them to be bored when if he was on the other end of special ed they wouldn't dare say it's extra work for the teacher so he has to suffer.
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