If you don't mind, I would like to ask a question.

I have been following this thread because at one point we considered homeschooling as well. But, in the the end, we decided on a local Christian private school. It is a wonderful school!!! Tuition is affordable, since we have a few kids there we get a discount. The teachers are amazing and that allows my kids to be taught by people certified in their fields vs. what I (and DH) remember from school. The atmosphere is loving and supportive. My kids get to join sports teams and have school activities. The family has been able to make life long friends from the school. And, everything in their education is focussed on Christ. They study the Bible and have chapel every day. As far as I am concerned, it is like having the best of all worlds. Yes, financially it maybe more of a sacrafice than home schooling but I feel it is so worth it.

So, my question is, why have you all not chosen to go the Christian school route? Was it just a question of money???? Lack of them in your area?? Or, other reason??

Thanks!!!!!

[quote="SaraO"][quote="mommachris"]SaraO
Some verses in the Bible teach people to dress modestly but none say that seeing someone kiss in the hallway or seeing someone wear baggy pants is going to cause you harm.

Actually, modesty is directed in the Bible. And, as for kissing, you're right -- the Bible doesn't specifically say that, but it does talk about purity before marriage, etc. Kissing someone is a means of giving part of your heart away a little bit at a time. (there the mystery surrounding the bond of marriage -- man and woman become one flesh, and kissing was meant to be in that union.) Hence, why the hysterical tears after the inevitable breakup.

I don't see people as dirty dogs and I would never teach my children that anyone is like a dirty dog. I would teach my child want Jesus taught - love your neighbour as yourself and love your enemies.

You just picked the hardest commandment to live out -- one that our children struggle with daily. Have you ever heard the gossip fest that goes on among girls? That's not loving your neighbor. Guys speak disrespectfully to adults, each other, and about girls. That's not loving either. They need to be around people who practice that in order to learn it!


The Hewitt Research Foundation sells homeschooling supplies! That's a huge conflict of interest. Plus, there was no control group. Just because they found 400 homeschooled children who are doing well, does not mean that homeschooling is better. I definitely agree that people who are homeschooled can be successful, I just don't think it's necessarily better.

I think that most kids can get a good education whererver they are as long as they apply themselves and they have the curriucluar opportunities to do so. That really isn't my issue. I know some schools are lacking in materials and talent, but not as many as people might think.

1983? Over 2 decades ago? That's quite a while ago. I would be interested in reading the study anyway though. I wonder how many schools they went to and how they collected their data.

It's even moreso today, I would think. The homeschool movement has expanded tremendously since then. Every homeschooled child I know is in college by 16 or 17.


Don't believe everything you read. The Flat Earth Society also has a book. Certainly some children have low self-esteem but there is a lot of benefit in learning how to interact with one's peers, outside of the control of parents.

That's an interesting argument because then we shouldn't believe the Bible? Everything we read must be done so through a filter to recognize truth.

I have to agree with an earlier post I think it said the the school situation is not a real environment. When your son is hired at a company he will be dealing with many age groups not a bunch of other guys who are just like him.

I would define school as real environment because it involves collaboration, friendship, authority, democracy, and learning.

Can't agree there. Nowhere else is there a single environment in which you daily interact with sometimes up to 4,00 people (usually about 1,500 though) where there is the teenage mindset. ADULTS are different. And, what offic would allow kissing in the hallway or swearing profusely and loudly down the hallway.

I will teach my children to read the Bible and have them clarify things for themselves. I will talk to them about school and teach them about the Bible and be open to questions. I want my children to judge everything by scripture, including church and including things I say. It's very important to me, that my children understand that principles of the Bible so that they can take it with them wherever they go and use it independently (You know the expression, you can teach a man to fish . . . )

Wonderful that you will have them read the Bible! May I just forewarn about using verses out of context or only to suit your own purposes? Jesus said that His way is narrow -- there isn't room for all beliefs and relative ideas. Unless given the grace and gift of faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, it can be a tough pill to swallow. Example: love your neighbors -- easy to say until someone is mean to you or until you come across someone who you think offended you.

I hope my children will learn from, love, and respect their peers, just as David and Jonathan did and just as the disciples tried to do.

Will you teach them to "respect" ideas that are Biblically wrong by staying silent and not arguing for the truth? Will you teach them to say "as long as it works for you and you're not hurting anyone it's okay what you believe?" The hard line about the Bible is that Jesus calls for all of us to spread the message and to stand up for Him. Too many kids are intimidated by their peers to do this.

And, it is true that most teachers don't allow Christians free speech in the classroom. They allow others to talk about idea "in theory", but have a child stand up and say, "I'd like to discuss my relationship with Jesus" and see what happens. Technically, the teachers HAVE to allow it, but most would shut the coversation down somehow. Actually, I've only had one student EVER stand up for his faith. He was orthodox Jewish, and he told me he couldn't read any books by Christian authors -- impossible, since we were studying British Literature -- all of which is written by Christian authors. Here's how we solved it -- I told him that there was no way to avoid it, but that if he ever had a text written by a Jewish author that we could use to compare against what we were reading, that would be great! Well, he did bring in some texts, and we ended up having wonderful comparative literature discussions!

I've had ONE student who felt safe to bring a Bible to class. He did so every day and read it during down times in class. I've talked with him since he graduated, and he said it was not easy. Even he never felt safe enough among his peers to bring up his faith!

Boy, do I enjoy discussing this with you, as your responses are so thoughtful and thorough. Thank you so much for engaging in such spirited discussion!

S.

Our decision to homeschool was not based on money but on how we wanted our children to be raised. We could afford to send our children to a Christian school but we are non-denominational, don't belong to a church and there are things that we believe that even if our child were in a Christian school, they might be taught that we, as the parents, are wrong.
There are more recent studies that have been done on the benefits of homeschooling by colleges and other institutes. I don't have the articles on hand and will need to look them up, I won't have time until after the kids are in bed.
mbelgard-I'm sorry to hear about your aunt's family, unfortunately not everyone is meant to do this. There are people out there who abuse this right and they set a poor example for those of us who are doing it correctly. I live in a state where you have to report what you are teaching, etc, when your child turns 8. You have to keep a detailed folder on what your child is doing, a daily log, test scores and they are evaluated at the end of the school year by a certified teacher (not family or friends) to see how they have done. I don't like to be caught off guard so I keep a daily log now (our children are 5 and under), that way I will be ready, it will already be a habit instead of something I have to jump into.

I didn't say Jesus was born a full grown man-the reference you gave about him sitting among the sinners was when he was a MAN, not a child or teenager. And yes, he did stay at the temple asking questions and listening to the teachers of the law, but these were not his peers. And if you read further in that story it tells how he went with his parents and was obedient to them.

It's true that it wouldn't do ME harm, but I don't want my kids to see it and think it is ok and acceptable. They learn from their peers at school what is acceptable, and I would have to battle to teach them that it is not (I'm just remembering what a battle it was for my parents trying to teach us kids that).

The stuff in italics is new

[quote="sonoma9"][quote="SaraO"]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mommachris

SaraO
Some verses in the Bible teach people to dress modestly but none say that seeing someone kiss in the hallway or seeing someone wear baggy pants is going to cause you harm.

Actually, modesty is directed in the Bible. And, as for kissing, you're right -- the Bible doesn't specifically say that, but it does talk about purity before marriage, etc. Kissing someone is a means of giving part of your heart away a little bit at a time. (there the mystery surrounding the bond of marriage -- man and woman become one flesh, and kissing was meant to be in that union.) Hence, why the hysterical tears after the inevitable breakup.

That's your interpretation, but there is nothing in the Bible that says kissing another person is giving away a part of yourself or that kissing was meant to only happen in the context of sex. I have heard Christian preachers teach this idea, but I checked out the Bible and did not see any evidence for it.

I don't see people as dirty dogs and I would never teach my children that anyone is like a dirty dog. I would teach my child want Jesus taught - love your neighbour as yourself and love your enemies.

You just picked the hardest commandment to live out -- one that our children struggle with daily. Have you ever heard the gossip fest that goes on among girls? That's not loving your neighbor. Guys speak disrespectfully to adults, each other, and about girls. That's not loving either. They need to be around people who practice that in order to learn it!

Since everyone is sinful, my children will encounter sin and hurtful talk from all sorts of sources. They will also encounter friendship and kindness in different places, including school.

The Hewitt Research Foundation sells homeschooling supplies! That's a huge conflict of interest. Plus, there was no control group. Just because they found 400 homeschooled children who are doing well, does not mean that homeschooling is better. I definitely agree that people who are homeschooled can be successful, I just don't think it's necessarily better.

I think that most kids can get a good education whererver they are as long as they apply themselves and they have the curriucluar opportunities to do so. That really isn't my issue. I know some schools are lacking in materials and talent, but not as many as people might think.

1983? Over 2 decades ago? That's quite a while ago. I would be interested in reading the study anyway though. I wonder how many schools they went to and how they collected their data.

It's even moreso today, I would think. The homeschool movement has expanded tremendously since then. Every homeschooled child I know is in college by 16 or 17.

I know that homeschool has expanded a lot. It's too bad that there is so little recent research on it.

Don't believe everything you read. The Flat Earth Society also has a book. Certainly some children have low self-esteem but there is a lot of benefit in learning how to interact with one's peers, outside of the control of parents.

That's an interesting argument because then we shouldn't believe the Bible? Everything we read must be done so through a filter to recognize truth.

I believe the Bible is written by God. I trust God. All others bring data

I have to agree with an earlier post I think it said the the school situation is not a real environment. When your son is hired at a company he will be dealing with many age groups not a bunch of other guys who are just like him.

I would define school as real environment because it involves collaboration, friendship, authority, democracy, and learning.

Can't agree there. Nowhere else is there a single environment in which you daily interact with sometimes up to 4,00 people (usually about 1,500 though) where there is the teenage mindset.

How do you define teenage mindset? Teenagers are in the midst of the process of adolescence - lliterally becoming adults. They are forming their own unique idenities and separating themselves from their parents. There is no one teenage mindset, except in stereotypes.

ADULTS are different. And, what offic would allow kissing in the hallway or swearing profusely and loudly down the hallway.

Adults sin just as much, and arguably gossip even more. In highschools, I don't think people swear in the hallways as much as you think. Either way, hearing the f-word or the s-word is not going to damage my children.

I will teach my children to read the Bible and have them clarify things for themselves. I will talk to them about school and teach them about the Bible and be open to questions. I want my children to judge everything by scripture, including church and including things I say. It's very important to me, that my children understand that principles of the Bible so that they can take it with them wherever they go and use it independently (You know the expression, you can teach a man to fish . . . )

Wonderful that you will have them read the Bible! May I just forewarn about using verses out of context or only to suit your own purposes?

"Love your neighbour as yourself is the second greatest commandment. Check out Matthew 22:35-40:
35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this
question: 36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the
Law?" 37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart
and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and
greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your
neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these
two commandments."

Christ's words are clear. Loving God and loving your neighbour are the most important commandments.

Jesus said that His way is narrow -- there isn't room for all beliefs and relative ideas. Unless given the grace and gift of faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, it can be a tough pill to swallow. Example: love your neighbors -- easy to say until someone is mean to you or until you come across someone who you think offended you.

I agree with you.

I hope my children will learn from, love, and respect their peers, just as David and Jonathan did and just as the disciples tried to do.

Will you teach them to "respect" ideas that are Biblically wrong by staying silent and not arguing for the truth?

No, I will teach my children to stand up for what they believe and also to be polite to others who do not share their views. I will also teach them that being around people who don't believe in the Bible is not something to be feared.

Will you teach them to say "as long as it works for you and you're not hurting anyone it's okay what you believe?"

No, I wouldn't tell them to say that.

The hard line about the Bible is that Jesus calls for all of us to spread the message and to stand up for Him. Too many kids are intimidated by their peers to do this.

To me, segregating them from their peers and telling them that their peers swear, wear bad clothes, or thrive on teasing others, is not a way to lessen any intimidation.

And, it is true that most teachers don't allow Christians free speech in the classroom. They allow others to talk about idea "in theory", but have a child stand up and say, "I'd like to discuss my relationship with Jesus" and see what happens.

I did precisely that in my public school and was permitted to do so and it was well-received. I also belonged to Christian clubs that were supported by the school.

Technically, the teachers HAVE to allow it, but most would shut the coversation down somehow.

How do you know that?

Actually, I've only had one student EVER stand up for his faith. He was orthodox Jewish, and he told me he couldn't read any books by Christian authors -- impossible, since we were studying British Literature -- all of which is written by Christian authors. Here's how we solved it -- I told him that there was no way to avoid it, but that if he ever had a text written by a Jewish author that we could use to compare against what we were reading, that would be great! Well, he did bring in some texts, and we ended up having wonderful comparative literature discussions!

Nice!

I've had ONE student who felt safe to bring a Bible to class. He did so every day and read it during down times in class. I've talked with him since he graduated, and he said it was not easy. Even he never felt safe enough among his peers to bring up his faith!

It is true that it is hard to bring up one's faith among others and I don't think there is any reason to discuss one's faith if people do not have ears to hear. But if I were to keep my children at home I would worry that they would have an even harder time discussing their faith with others, since they would not often be exposed to children with different views.

Boy, do I enjoy discussing this with you, as your responses are so thoughtful and thorough. Thank you so much for engaging in such spirited discussion!

I like discussing it too. I hope I am not offending anyone. I am just interested in this topic.

S.

Star_dust_girl,

Hello, and thanks for joining the discussion. Always like to share other's opinions.

First off, homeschooling may not be for every parent or for every child.

I believe your view of homeschooling maybe a bit biased. Not all who chose to home school are christians. Not all home school programs are christian. About 1/3 of all who home school in the US, US territories, and US citizens abroad are secular. Money is not an issue since my husband is an MD who is fully employed and I'm a PhD that chooses to be home but I have a couple of very-part time business ventures. We live in the 6th largest city in the US, so availability of private schools (both secular and religious) are plentiful.

Our number one reason to home school is that the local schools, both public and private (both secular and religious -Jewish & christian), are not capable of teaching our son to his intellectual level. These programs are not available until he is older (he is currently only 10 y.o. but does high school level work). Our son has been educated in a secular environment and is intellectually gifted capable of extrapolating complex abstract processes and ideas so as to apply them to the real world. Brick and mortar schools often lack real world experience since it is a controlled environment. There are studies that prove this.

Hope this helps broaden your concept of home schooling.

I don't think anyone that is homeschooling their children teach that someone with a different opinion, religion, way of dressing, etc. is something to be FEARED. I don't teach my children this, we watch a lot of nature shows and are always coming across evolution, I teach my daughter what the Bible says but I don't make her stop watching the show because of it.
Sonoma was basing her arguments on this:

Because she has been teaching the last 14 years I would think she would be up-to-date on what's going on in high schools.

Love your neighbor as yourself IS the greatest command, if only everyone would follow it. WE can do it, we can teach OUR children to do it, but we cannot count on the rest of the world to do this. If that was the case there would be no war, no theft, no murder, etc.
I would like to know what high school you went to where your beliefs were so well received. I've been to 11 different schools in 5 different states and faced the same thing no matter where I went. I was very unpopular because I would speak freely about what I believed, not to mention the fact that I had to wear skirts all the time. I did have some friends, but they were always at the bottom rung too.

Okay all, here are a few articles/studies on socialization and home schooled children. Worth a read for skeptics.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000000/00000068.asp

http://lds-nha.org/socialization.php

http://learninfreedom.org/socialization.html

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/10412/public_school_vs_homeschool_socialization.html

http://www.redshift.com/~bonajo/socialresearch.htm

Have a great weekend!

I have nothing against homeschooling. If it works for you and your family that is great!!

SaraO -- there's so much to reply to, but using the quote option is getting a little laborious to get through, yes? Plus, I'm on a time crunch, so here, so I just wanted to get in a couple of points until I can get back to on some of your other points later.

I have to say that I am not mistaken about how much swearing there is in the schools. It is an epidemic in our culture, especially the teenage culture. What has been changing is the fact that kids don't care if an adult is around any longer and they feel free to say it when they see a teacher walking by. I know this isn't true at all schools, especially private, but it is the truth out there. I lived with it day to day. The end result is that there is a atmosphere of disrepect in which our children are forced to live. Without proper correction, children will not shape their lives as God intended. Now, there are some children who are equipped to deal with this, but is this really fair to them? They are there to learn and to grow too. Must they constantly have to be on their guard while they are trying to learn?

Ever been to a high school dance? Well, they are doing something called "grinding" which is what is sounds like. 4 or 5 kids squashed together imitating sex. The last dance I chaperoned was appalling. I was also told by the administration that there was nothing they could do about it, so I shouldn't say anything about it! Just another example of how lax standards and an inability of ADULTS to CONTROL the ENVIRONMENT has lead to a disrespectful and shameful environement.

We are the adults, the ones our children must follow. If a family feels that they can do that while still keeping their kids in school, then that is their decision. They will find that it either worked or it didn't. (The secular, academic reasons, are just as strong, but we're not discussing those here -- believe me, as a public school teacher, I've got a lot to say on that angle as well.) But to argue that God doesn't expect parents to train and raise their children just doens't hold water. If you send your children away for 8+ hours a day, who is actually raising them? Do you think that by simply telling them over their Cheerios to "be kind" and "not lie" and "treat your neighbor as themselves" that they are going to get this concept? That kind of ingraining takes time and lots of reminding and correcting. And, I think correcting is the key here -- children need to be corrected until they get it down and then don't stumble themselves. Kids in schools today aren't corrected in a Biblical way. God has been thrown out of school -- He isn't allowed. So, any correction that the kids get is from the secular, relative point of view. Your CHILD will be left alone to defend or deal with others with no plausable means of reproofing someone else.

Okay, my kids are climbing all over me right now -- gotta run! Hope I haven't sounded curt, but, as I said, I'm pressed for time.

S.

I for one am really saddened by the lack of how its always I am doing the right thing the rest of the world is wrong. I only wish the world was so black and white. Good gravy.....I have to stop watching this thread.......just frustrates me beyond belief.

NEVER ENDING!

Sonoma9, the way I read your last post, it sounded like you were suggesting that people who send their children to public school can't have children who are good Christians, but I'm sure that's not what you're implying, is it?

We do not homeschool for religious reasons. I worked in public schools for many years. I know the good, the bad and the ugly that goes on in schools, lol. I have worked as a teacher, counselor and principal. I am now part of a growing number of former school employees who have decided to homeschool.

The thought of homeschooling never crossed my mind when my oldest was young. I worked in a school, I assumed he would go to public school as well. I believed he would continue to go to public school even after I completed my doctorate and was no longer working in a school.

My son attended kindergarten in a public school (not the district I was currently working in). I had to start dealing with the issues of schooling from a parent's perspective. That year was not a good year. He was in a building where teachers didn't always feel the need to make sure the children completed their work. My son could do the work, but it was below his level and he was bored easily. He would start doing something else that interested him more. It took forever to convince his teacher that I as his mother expected him to complete his work. We decided in February of that year that we would homeschool him starting in first grade. We started off thinking we would do it short term (until he would be switching to a different grade level building), but we decided to continue.

I agree that there are some families who homeschool that shelter their children, but you have to understand that is not the norm. While religious education used to be the primary reason to choose homeschooling, that is no longer the case. Many families take a secular stand on homeschooling. I have yet to meet a family who takes a secular approach try to shelter their children any more than parents of children in public schools. I'm not saying that all families who homeschool for religious reasons shelter their children, but I have met some who have.

SaraO, if you are a member of professional psych or educational research associations I would love to point you towards some peer reviewed studies. The sites I'm wanting to use are member only sites so I can't just type a link.

I totally agree with Hippiemama, there are lots of professional, peer review articles available supporting the many benefits of home schooling, however, access to these articles and studies require memberships to professional organizations (medical and/or educational) and/or buy research privileges (limited for non professionals) to view the articles. There are also many more masters and PhD studies that are published only at the university level and a print copy will have to be requested (and paid for) to read. Posting the articles here would be a violation of the authors copyright privileges. To post the article here would also require the author's prior permission to do so.

The articles I listed before were for informational purposes only as a starting point for those skeptical to learn more. They were not an invitation to a flame but rather, a friendly sharing of resources. It is the readers prerogative to research the references given (at the readers expense) at the end of the articles for further information (I do not believe a cake forum is the appropriate place to go into detail on such articles). The reader will find that the reference (most not all) are case studies and scientific research of the subject.

There are pros and cons to every method of learning/teaching. Just be open minded about the subject and see more than one side of the issue.

Hippiemama,
I can access peer-reviewed members-only journals. If you give me the citations, I can get the articles. I would like that if you could tell me some articles when you have a chance.

SaraO, can you let me know if you have access through a psych, ed research or med? I was also wondering what your area of specialty is? My doctorate is in clinical psychology.

SaraO -- I will so try to write more later, still time crunched here! But, no, of course I wasn't saying that you have to homeschool to have good Christians. -- but that should have been clear by much of what I said previously.

I said that there are some kids who were okay to handle that environment. If a family feels that they have the foundation and the support to send their kids through that, then that is their decision, and it's fine.

However, I do know that ALL of those kids were somewhat cheated at their educational experience and potential for learning growth because of time needed to deal with silly discipline and attitude issues that should have been handled by the time those kids were 5. I am serious about this. Teenage rebellion is not supposed to be the norm. That is a myth propogated by the secular relativist culture that we have today.

So, let's say you have a child who has been raised to be respectful, honest, kind, etc. That child must now sit through COUNTLESS discipline issues -- with very little growth, if any, because as everyone knows, the teachers aren't the parents! And, because the schools have stopped disciplining (and that's not an exaggeration -- something I'll describe later), and have given most of the power over to the students, there's NO CORRECTION going on in the schools. Not really. Not morally. Not ethically. In fact, some teachers get scolded for trying to do so. (How dare you put your beliefs on our child!) I see nothing wrong with exposing children to some situations (though I do not think they need to be exposed to everything), but when there's no support for the moral foundation and beliefs we hold dear -- then that does become a problem.

Oh -- you've really opened a vein of points for me on this one, but I've got to run for now.

S.

Just a point of correction I want to make on the references to Jesus, David and Jonathan and the deciples.

These were grown men out in the mission field. Jesus was in his 30's when he began his work.
As for his time in the temple when he was about 12, back then 12 was considered an adult. He wasn't lost, his mother thought he was traveling with his father ( with the men because he was considered a man) His dad thought he was with mom cause he was just barely a man.
David and Jonathan...not sure I remember Jonathan or David out reaching the lost. Still they were also in their teen years and considered adults. I won't consider my 13 year old boy an adult in this day and age.

I didn't call unchristians dogs, didn't you see my wink?
My word it is frustrating to have a conversation without being attacked for any use of illustration or sarcasm. All I ment was that bad manners rub off easier than good ones.

As for the studies being biased, what, did you really think that the system that supports public schools would want you to know that you can do a better job than them??
By that sarcastic point I just mean to say that every study has a bias. Even the polls taken by the news station are twisted to get the answers that they want to get. I am more inclined to believe the results I have seen first hand.

Every family has to make a choice when the children they are raising reaches the age of school. Several of us have chosen to homeschool and this thread was started to ask why.

Those of us who have had the joy of educating our kids have been open as to the reasons behind it. Some for $$ reasons, some for religious reasons, some because our children need a different pace offered by the public school systems.

I think the original poster has recieved the input she asked for.

The rest of the posting has been an offshoot and I hope that we can continue to discuss with respect our decisions. WE WILL NOT ALL AGREE on the one way to do it.
I will not speak for anyone but myself here. I have choosen to do this because my husband and I believe God has called us to prepare our children for His purpose in life while on earth but ultimately I am raising them for eternity in heaven. Life is just the journey, heaven is the goal.

We are called to be set apart, not to blend in.

Okay, go ahead and rip apart this post. I can take it.

In all meekness,
mommachris

sorry double post

Okay, I'm going to come across as completey verbose and perhaps overly invested in this, but as I finally have a few minutes to myself, I just felt compelled to address the path people some are beginning to lead us down.

1. I, nor anyone else in this post that I can see, ever said that it is absolutely wrong not to homeschool. In fact, I have said that if it works for others then that's fine, and I mean that sincerely. Please don't attribute ideas/statements to us that I didn't make.

2. Just because I and others vigorously defend our reasons and ideas (and yes, we do think we are right, obviously why would be defending them) does not make us any less capable of loving our neighbors. I'm speaking in regards specifically to the fact that some seem to think that I, and others, do not want my children to see anything and that I want them to be next to me (velcroed perhaps?) 24/7.

3. Some of us are arguing from a faith-based angle, others from an academic -- both are fine. There are problems with the schools. FACT. Some parents choose to opt out. It doens't mean they are condemning the KIDS of those schools as individuals. It means that there are practices which we no longer choose to tolerate.

4. I never said that kids at private schools are better. No one is better than anyone else. And, yes, kids at private schools do much of their misbehavior in private faith-based (oh, that's good - get it - private school??? in private?) Anyway, the point is that the reason they feel obligated to do their bad behavior in private, behind the teacher's back is because the teachers and the school are holding them to a standard! In Christian schools, they are held to Christian standards. In other faith-based schools, they are held to the standards of that faith. In public schools, they are held to no standard, which is exactly what secular, relativistic society wants. They are actually okay with it because they think that applying a standard is limiting in the wrong way. We do not agree.

5. I happen to be arguing the faith-based angle in these posts, and that is bound to upset some people. The ironic thing that you probably wouldn't believe is that I never preached either directly or indirectly to my students. Many assumed I was Christian because of my behavior, but I never discussed it with them because I wasn't allowed to. I did as the Bible said and followed the guidelines of my leaders. I witnessed through my general attitude and behavior. I also never talked about my political bent -- which many teachers do -- and they never knew who I was voting for. I drew a line because that's what I had to do.

6. It is that very line that I drew for so many years that made me see the error of the public, secular schools. If no one is allowed to teach a moral foundation and if no on is allowed to correct students from that moral foudnation, then how and what are they supposed to learn? At this point, some say, "I don't want the schools to teach my kid morals!" But, is that really true? Do you want them to be told not to lie? Not to steal? Not to cheat? Not to hit? Not to bully? These are morals/ethics. You may say, "Of course I want my kids to learn those things, duh!" Well, where do you think these morals come from????? And, which morals do you agree need to be taught? WHERE IS THE MORAL STANDARD???? What is one teacher thinks it's okay for kids to cheat?? What if a teacher thinks your child just needs to toughen up and not cry when that other kid "pokes fun" and so doesn't discipline the other child? Then you as a parent are up in arms about it because you are, rightly so, going to protect your child.

And, I just wanted to comment on the ideas about the swearing and the dancing. In Ephesians 5 Paul states, " But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousnes, let it not even be names among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving thanks."

Doesn't it seem obvious that vulgar language and base behavior falls under this category? It's not an issue of salvation, many will say, but it isn't fitting to behave this way. It brings the environment down. Can you honestly say that you would stand on the sidelines and watch passively as your daughter let a boy push himself up against her backside or front at a high school dance? What if that's what SHE WANTED TO DO? If it's so okay for the other kids to do it, why not your own???? Perhaps that's the best weapon that we have in resisting this kind of attitude -- walking away from it. Refusing to be involved. Doesn't that speak volumes to the masses?

S.

Hubby and I were just talking about how this thread is starting to go in circles, with neither parties being dissuaded from their opinions. Which of course everyone is entitled to their opinions, that's how this country got started. I would like to try and change the subject a little though.
Mommachris, you said you have 8 kids? God bless you first off, that's awesome! How old are your kiddies and how long have you been homeschooling? Actually, I'm going to pm you if that's alright, I would like ask some things of an experienced homeschooling mom
And Sonoma, you said you're taking the year off right? This will be exciting, I think, especially the fact that you are already a teacher. I wonder if it's easier to pick out curriculum if you are a teacher? We've switched curriculum twice, we use My Father's World now and love it. Anyone else like science? My daughter has dubbed herself a scientist, because she loves to 'examine' everything (her words), that and she loves science experiments, especially edible ones

Yeah, we started when she was about 3. We had talked about starting her with kindgarten books when she turned 4 to see if I would be able to manage homeschooling her-this way if I couldn't do it she wouldn't lose a year and she could just go to public when she turned 5. Hubby and I kept talking thinking, well, it won't hurt if we do something in the in-between time so we bought some very basic books from Staples, Winnie the Pooh colors and shapes, etc., nothing too difficult. She went through those with no problems so one day as we're walking around Sam's Club we saw that they had school workbooks there and bought a 500 page preschool. She blew right through that so we bought kindergarten and she did the same thing. She had finished both by the time she was 4. We were going to wait to begin 1st but we didn't want her to forget anything she had already learned and if we kept giving her pre-k or kindergarten stuff she would have become bored. SO, we found the same company that I had used when I was homeschooled and bought all the supplies. She began 1st grade last summer but didn't do very well, the books were just too boring. They are made for Amish schools and don't have any colors in them. She didn't like them so we switched back to the Sam's club book and she finished that, I want to say either March or April. We started 2nd grade after taking some time off but I saw that this book didn't spend enough time on each topic and the math was definitely lacking. Hubby had already been using My Father's World for science, Bible, and history so we just switched to use it for the rest and she loves it.
This is longer than I meant it to be but I thought it might help you out too.