I am a hobby baker waiting for the texas cottage food law to take effect in September. I've learned so much from CC but usually at the cost of other newbie posters. I have learned to lurk behind my PC waiting for another newbie to post a question I am interested in so that I maybe can also benefit from the answer without having to deal with the sometimes hurtful lectures that newbies tend to get (not always). It's kinda like being in high school again. As I get more and more experience, I have started to muster up the courage to actually start posting. There's lots of wonderful guys and gals on CC that make the experience a nice one but there's just a few that tend to dampen the festivities fir the rest of us. : (
Fedra
This discussion is so interesting...LOL. I remember lurking here for years before I finally joined. When I did, it was pretty cool. I learned a lot... a whole lot! It is my go to place especially for techniques. I have to agree with a previous poster that it's not just what is being said but it's the tone being used. I did get quite a fright when I read about copyrights, and legalities, etc etc etc. Yes I was grateful for the information when it was dispensed in a constructive way, but at the same time it caused me lose sleep thinking the police would be knocking at my door for making a winnie the pooh cake for my friend who invited 20 guests to her kid's birthday party! LOL. I am grateful for what I've learned and IMO a simple question about cost could be answered with "a bakery or licenced baker could charge this...but a hobby baker probably this". Buying a car from a dealer will always fetch a different price than the same car from an individual.
That being said, when someone asks "how much would you charge" it doesn't necessarily means they will be making the cake, it would be that they're trying to assess the value of a purchase. If I had a tool such as cakecentral within my reach, i would definitely inquire about the cost of a cake as a cross comparison.
I believe in live and let live, and help if you can otherwise just move on. I would not sit by and let someone blindly walk into a hornet's nest without warning. Good advice and fair warning about anything do not need to barked at someone. Let creativity live! LOL
I am a hobby baker waiting for the texas cottage food law to take effect in September. I've learned so much from CC but usually at the cost of other newbie posters. I have learned to lurk behind my PC waiting for another newbie to post a question I am interested in so that I maybe can also benefit from the answer without having to deal with the sometimes hurtful lectures that newbies tend to get (not always). It's kinda like being in high school again. As I get more and more experience, I have started to muster up the courage to actually start posting. There's lots of wonderful guys and gals on CC that make the experience a nice one but there's just a few that tend to dampen the festivities fir the rest of us. : (
Fedra
yep... that's exactly how I learned too!
IMHO, I think no one should be allowed to post unless they are legal....yes, show me your citizenship papers, your birth certificate (I'm old enough to have a birth certificate that noted whether you were illegitimate), I want to see your drivers license, And all you foreigners with your cool ideas about ganache under fondant, your smart tutorials and your fancy London cakes....don't think you're going to get under our cake police radar. Let's make CC safe from terrorism. LONG LIVE FACISM . (and for those of you who are humour impaired...this is said in jest)
IMO a simple question about cost could be answered with "a bakery or licenced baker could charge this...but a hobby baker probably this"
Now that is a great idea! How about using that next time the old pricing question comes up?
I appreciate all I've learned on CC, especially the legalities of which I was previously unaware. I've kept it a hobby until our recent cottage law passed (paying "Caesar's things to Caesar) and now can create a biz, so I understand how frustrating it is to pros to have invested so much time and energy to see the market flooded by folks who give away their cakes, undercutting them. Again,, tgress13, great suggestion.
IMHO, I think no one should be allowed to post unless they are legal....yes, show me your citizenship papers, your birth certificate (I'm old enough to have a birth certificate that noted whether you were illegitimate), I want to see your drivers license, And all you foreigners with your cool ideas about ganache under fondant, your smart tutorials and your fancy London cakes....don't think you're going to get under our cake police radar. Let's make CC safe from terrorism. LONG LIVE FACISM . (and for those of you who are humour impaired...this is said in jest)
Birth certificate noted whether you are illegitmate - you must be older than dirt 
Sorry, the devil made me do it (I'm sure you remember that line) 
darlin', I'm AM older than dirt,...and younger than the dawn!
This may sound silly, but I wanted to say thanks to everyone here for being SO BRAVE to say what you feel! I am definitely a "lurker" who is on this site every day (I LOVE LOVE pictures), and I read nearly all of the forums ... but I rarely post myself. As I said before, I am working on being 100% legal, but, because I'm not (yet!), I don't feel that my opinions would be taken seriously. I also am scared that I will get one of the "lectures", even though I am very aware of, and am working toward, the legalities in my state. I think that I feel this way because of the overall attitude some of these threads have had lately. Everyone has to start somewhere, and I really doubt that everyone is perfectly legal in the beginning. I hope CC can change, because the original idea of this site is a fabulous one. =)
This makes me sad... I used to be a frequent poster on this site and I never felt this way...I loved coming here and never felt attacked or scared to ask questions... I started teaching and drifted away from cake decorating and posting here for about three years...It's changed a lot! I guess they have more members now and it's not as welcoming as it once was. 
I am loving this thread. I rarely post, and never ask. I lurk...And for all the reason that have been stated. Add in the fact that you will see people that have been around forever say things like "not again" or "here we go again" or "this has been discussed a million times" and its really easy to stay in hiding.....
We each have our own points of view on this topic. There's nothing that's going to change that. What can we do to move on from all this fighting?
The pricing question is one that seems to lead to all sorts of squabbling. Would it help if we had a sticky that fully explained all the aspects of pricing (like someone suggested earlier) with information pertinent to both licensed bakers and hobby bakers who may be unlicensed? This way, if someone new to CC asks the dreaded pricing question, he/she could be pointed to this sticky as a source of unbiased information?
It's easy to forget that the words we type can be more harsh than the words we might say. Let's focus more on what we have in common than what we don't. Cake is a happy thing!! 
[quote=" Cake is a happy thing!! [/quote]
Amen, None of us make cakes to make people sad (well, at least not deliberately) Let's all get happy again
Wow, this thread has doubled in size since I last checked it...I skimmed the last few pages and there is a lot of great feedback.
I can appreciate that some people are more sensitive than others, so a standardized thread with information about the different legal aspects involved in starting a cake business (facts only, no judgments) as well as pricing information would be beneficial. Then people could simply reply to business-related questions (regardless of which forum they are in) with a link to the legal info thread.
FYI the pricing formula is exactly the same for a licensed baker and a hobby baker, the hobby baker usually just has less overhead. The real question is whether or not the hobby baker wants to take the risk of charging at all if they are operating illegally in their area -- personally I don't care one way or the other as long as the decision is an informed one. I've seen many people posting their thanks in threads (including this one!) and PMs for bringing up business-related issues they hadn't thought of, allowing them to better make a decision with all the facts in hand.
I called my insurance broker and it was very inexpensive to purchase insurance it didn't matter if I was legal or illegal.
Interesting...which underwriters were willing to insure a baker they knew was operating illegally?
I'm also curious to see examples of non-business-related threads where people have asked about licensing, insurance, or other legal issues. Based on what many are saying in this thread this supposedly happens a lot. Can anyone post an example link?
I think the Amish is partially why PA is easy on home bakers.
I was recently at an Amish home though for a dinner (it was like something the lady does on the side, serves private dinners, kinda cool) and she actually had a food certificate hanging on the wall in her basement, lit by candles and one propane lamp.
I totally understand both sides of the situation which is why I try to give the poster the benefit of the doubt as to their legal status. I baked for friends and via word of mouth for a little while before I was brave enough to actually get licensing and insurance and know I'd get enough orders in to pay for my expenses. My business has evolved VERY slowly. It didn't happen overnight.
I try to just figure the poster is going to do the right thing, and if not, that's between them and their state (and their conscience and God) and its not for me to blow the whistle on them. There's plenty of information about licensing all over this website. I think this website is what first drew my attention to licensing, several years ago...and it wasn't directly in reply to anything I said, but the information is just here, in many places.
That's why I say really, we don't need to beat the horse in EVERY thread. The "legal states" sticky is in plain view to everyone.
Amen! I just don't understand why we can't just answer the poor person's question as asked and not worry about if they're legal or have insurance, etc. It's none of my business is the way I look at it. If they're selling cakes and not licensed, it's their butts on the line, not mine 
Like you said, the information is here to find pretty easily....it doesn't need to be pointed out every chance we get.
I am on the hop today - but just wanted to pop in and say...
Thank you so much everyone for all your feedback and thoughts.
It has indeed turned into a very informative thread - and that we are all being constructive and thoughtful in our approach when responding.
Page 7 and we are still standing - wooohoooo. 
And again i just want to say - how wonderful it is to see CCer's who haven't posted for such a long time - do hope you stay and contribute with your wealth of knowledge to those who are either frazzled, lost or just unsure when attempting something new.
And thankyou to those who have PM'd me saying great to see this thread and happy that this can of worms can be discussed in a civilised manner.
Enjoy your day - but for now - i must dash ------------------>
Bluehue....
I'm also curious to see examples of non-business-related threads where people have asked about licensing, insurance, or other legal issues. Based on what many are saying in this thread this supposedly happens a lot. Can anyone post an example link?
It may not be asked but it is implied often in the form of unsolicited advice that is offered in a post devoted to decorating questions. There was a post yesterday about someone doing their first wedding cake. It was posted in the decorating forum, it is still there. The individual is excited about doing the cake for a friend, all of the questions are decorating questions. They include things like how to work with gum paste, what kind of base to use, what is the best way to smooth buttercream.
The entire post is devoted to getting pointers from the experienced individuals here to help make the wedding cake look more polished and professional. There is no mention of charging/being paid. No one asks are you licensed (the OP is 15 after all) but another post takes it upon themselves to add that if they are being paid they should be licensed. In a subsequent post the OP states she has no idea what the individual is referring to.
Now you can say well this is good, the OP should know these things and that she does not it is a good thing that the individual mentioned she needs to be licensed to get paid. While in principle she should, there is simply no reason why in a decorating thread, you or others (an example of where you do this was already posted on page 5) people should interject business issues into the conversation. Offering unsolicited "advice" is no different than if you asked them if they are legal. If they are then your "advice" is meaningless, if they are not then you challenged their legality when they simply came for decorating advice.
That advice (in some cases questions) need not be interjected into a decorating thread. Sure if it is a question about pricing (that should be in the business forum if it is not) then by all means ask away. However, the poster in the thread I described above did not come looking for advice on being legal or on pricing, she came to find out how to make her cake look more polished.
You can comfort yourself by saying well hey I am informing them about what they need to know. But when posters offer their advice on legality into a thread soliciting advice about decorating, they are injecting business into decorating discussions. You may see yourself as helping the individual but frankly we could live without the paternalism in threads where people are looking for ways to make their cakes look better.
I am also curious to see an example link of a non business related thread where people have asked about licensing and insurance. I have been a lurker on here for years. I know that people are asked about licensing allot when they are in the business forum asking a pricing question, but that is to be expected. I just dont see it on other forums the way it is being decribed here.
Gatorcake, you are concise, eloquent and on point.
I called my insurance broker and it was very inexpensive to purchase insurance it didn't matter if I was legal or illegal.
Interesting...which underwriters were willing to insure a baker they knew was operating illegally?
Surprisingly, most insurance companies don't ask about health department compliance when selling you a policy(ours never did), but you can bet they will ask to see it if they are ever expected to pay a claim against that business.
I am also curious to see an example link of a non business related thread where people have asked about licensing and insurance. I have been a lurker on here for years.
Yes i can see you have been a memeber for years - so i would think that you would have seen questions being asked in non business threads - .......perhaps you are not reading the whole thread - *shrug*
I know that people are asked about licensing allot when they are in the business forum asking a pricing question, but that is to be expected.
Why is to be expected ??? - i would have thought from the 7 previous pages that CCer's are stating that they don't like being asked - when they have not asked a question petaining to that....Business Forum or not. I just dont see it on other forums the way it is being decribed here.
Really
- perhaps one needs to read entire threads more carefully.Case example - I saw a CCer From Ireland last week - she was asking about the pricing of a 2 or 3 tiered cake.....and from memory - the cake was for her sister..and it was not in the Business forum.
Guess what responses she got - they weren't about *how* to charge for a cake.
Again - what laws one has to abide by in one Town or County - or Suburb - might not be relevant to the next County over - let alone a Country 15000000klms away.
I sit here and shake my head at the thought that that CCer might have been scared off - and might never want to come back and ask another question ever again.
Common sense tells me - that if someone askes a question then they want an answer to that question - not given a lecture about how they should be running their business or what insurance they should have.
Some sit in high places and feel it is their right/duty to inform people of these things - where in actual fact - we don't have that right at all - unril such time as someone asks. It can and does come across as rude and uncalled for.
And in many cases a new CCer is left bewildered and confused as to why they never got the answer they were wanting.
Bluehue.
I got reported to the MOD when I said something about the Cake police.
it wasn't even mean!
It was the equvilant of saying 'Don't listen to that guy hes a bully'
I felt like I was in high school being sent to the principal
When it comes to the "how much would you charge?" question, I never make assumptions. Most times, I don't answer the question, because it's asked SO many times - but I always thought they just wanted to guage the value their own work (i.e., they are giving a cake as a gift and don't want it to be seen as a "cheap" gift, or they are considering turning a hobby into a business but want to assess whether or not it's worth their time as they know how much work went into a cake that other members say they would only charge $2.50/serving for)
I'm hardly ever on this site anymore because the atmosphere isn't pleasant. I try to help when I can, or when I have a few moments, or when the urge strikes me - but mostly I am too busy worrying about my own business to try to tell others how to run theirs - or interrogate them as to whether they are operating one, and whether it's within the confines of their local laws.
I changed my siggy in an effort to help stamp out the CC Police. Since I don't post much, I doubt it will have much effect, but I'm just doin' my part in the war on "terrorism". *giggles*
I thnk that something that's being lost in all of this self-congratulatory "don't ask don't tell" is that there are experienced bakers on here who have either seen, or who have experienced themselves, instances where unlicensed bakers did get in trouble for selling their wares.
In my experience reading Cake Central threads, when someone starts asking for pricing info and someone says "are you licensed" it isn't the person asking about the license who gets nasty, it's the person who was asking about the pricing.
There are a few people on this thread who have pointed out that they didn't know about legalities before someone responded to a question with information about licensing. I think that the point of someone saying "are you licensed" is to let people know that there can be consequences for selling cakes without a license, which is something that a lot of people just don't think about.
OK, so when someone says, "What's the price....?", we all know they are "selling", or thinking of selling.....
Not necessarily, when I was a CC newbie I asked this question a couple of times because I wanted to figure what my hobby was costing me..at least roughly on a wholesale level and to see if it would be worth it to invest in becoming legal on a retail level. I don't sell cakes illegally, but sure am interested in pricing.
OK, so when someone says, "What's the price....?", we all know they are "selling", or thinking of selling.....
Not necessarily, when I was a CC newbie I asked this question a couple of times because I wanted to figure what my hobby was costing me..at least roughly on a wholesale level and to see if it would be worth it to invest in becoming legal on a retail level. I don't sell cakes illegally, but sure am interested in pricing.
hahaha! Let me tell you...when I stopped doing cakes as a hobby and started a business, I was shocked at how much extra cash we had in our household budget each month! Using a business checking account to pay for cake expenses makes you realize how much money is going out to "the cause" each month without you realizing it!
costumeczar,
In the thread that was referenced back on page 5 of this thread (http://cakecentral.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=720930&highlight=legal) the OP asked a series of questions in the CAKE DECORATING FORUM. Not the business forum, but the decorating forum. Most of those questions went unanswered. Why? Because first the thread was hi-jacked by posters interrogating the OP as to her legal status and right to use a copyrighted character. THEN the thread was shut down because someone reported a comment to a moderator. Did the OP get answers to questions about the hobby cake she was planning on making? Mostly NO. Will she be back to ask another question? Not likely. She may, like many of us hobbyists lurk in the shadows hoping someone else asks the questions she needs an answer to. She may just give up CC as a bit of a bad joke on the hobbyist population.
I thnk that something that's being lost in all of this self-congratulatory "don't ask don't tell" is that there are experienced bakers on here who have either seen, or who have experienced themselves, instances where unlicensed bakers did get in trouble for selling their wares.
In my experience reading Cake Central threads, when someone starts asking for pricing info and someone says "are you licensed" it isn't the person asking about the license who gets nasty, it's the person who was asking about the pricing.
There are a few people on this thread who have pointed out that they didn't know about legalities before someone responded to a question with information about licensing. I think that the point of someone saying "are you licensed" is to let people know that there can be consequences for selling cakes without a license, which is something that a lot of people just don't think about.
Interesting you chose the phrase don't ask don't tell since the offering of advice can be seen as a form of baiting. What you are missing in the concerns of some of those you describe as "the self-congratulatory don't ask don't tell" folks is the rush to interject business issues in decorating threads. Note that you emphasize threads where pricing is raised--which is in part the subject of the O.P.
However what others are focused on is the rush to interject business concerns in decorating threads which can lead to a derailing of the thread (which I will admit is not unique to questions about legality). There have been two examples referenced in this thread (why people keep asking for examples is a bit surprising) where a decorating thread has business concerns interjected when the subject of pricing has never been raised.
As mentioned above, you might feel you are doing the poster a benefit by offering advice that they should be legal. But then again it is either presumptuous (they are legal they don't need your advice) or accusatory (you must be legal, you are not so you cannot sell it). Either way it is not what the poster came here looking for. They came here looking for decorating advice, not "advice" that admonishes them for taking on the project.
So frankly it is not that surprising that someone might get a bit testy because they find themselves being lectured/accused/admonished when they simply came looking for decorating advice. That they may get nasty first is irrelevant to whether or not this friendly advice should be offered.
Look at is this way, many of the questions in the decorating forum are about making cakes for others. One could easily then post in every thread asking about a cake for someone else "hey make sure you are legal." Which has happened--the examples are not that hard to find. There is simply no reason to offer this advice simply because you think you are doing a good deed.
That some might have found it useful does not justify the times where people found it off-putting/insulting/accusatory. There is simply no reason to probe beyond the decorating questions. You are assuming things about the individual that frankly you have no reason to assume simply because they are asking a question about how to decorate a cake for others. What some of the" self-congratulatory don't ask, don't tell" folks are saying is the forum doesn't need folks running around here always advising on the legality of decorating projects.
In the thread that was referenced back on page 5 of this thread (http://cakecentral.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=720930&highlight=legal)
Thanks for the link, I must have missed that when skimming the last few pages.
The wording of the thread (talking about someone's "first real order") seemed to imply that the cake was being sold, so I posted that OP should make sure she can legally sell cakes in her area, and to get permission from the copyright owner since the cake was going to feature a licensed character. When OP replied that the cake was a gift, I responded that she didn't have to worry about legal issues and the copyright issue was -- while not moot -- a very low risk (the risk still exists even with a free cake, as seen a few days ago on a CC thread where someone got hit with a $500 legal fee for a copyright violation on a free cake).
That was my fault for jumping to conclusions, and I apologize for that (as I did in the thread). In the future I will be more careful about making sure the thread involves a commercial transaction before discussing legal aspects of the business.
FWIW as soon as people stopped attacking me the thread got back on track. I have no idea why the thread was shut down, it seemed to be going along fine once the cake police police posters got it out of their system.
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