We Should Form A Cc Union!!!
Decorating By berryblondeboys Updated 5 Jan 2007 , 7:03pm by MikeRowesHunny
To make sure that we all get paid what we deserve to get paid.
Last night I was fretting about asking too much for a cake someone requested. She wants a two tier cake, 10" and 6" in a rubber duck theme done in buttercream. I responded that I could do it and would charge between $90 and $100 to do it. As soon as I sent that email, I thought, "did I ask for too much? It sounds like too much, but it fits within the pricing matrix... It actually pays me for my time, but still doesnt' that sound like a lot?"
I was totally thinking later that I fret because there is no STANDARD... Yes, there's the pricing matrix, but I see as many people using that formula as not using it. It makes me wonder if people here (and our customers) realize how much it ACTUALLY costs to make a cake. Do we really add up all the ingredients? Do we really factor in the cost of using our stove and mixers and cake supplies like tips and bags and bowls and coloring? Selling cakes should eventually PAY for items like the mixer and cake pans and so on. No business just sucks up the cost of start up and forgets about it - they need to slowly get those paid for.
I remember when I made the wedding cake for my best friend, I gave that as my gift to her for the wedding - no other present. It cost me a small fortune to make that cake - I bought the cake stand, the cake pan set (I had only done 8" rounds before), bought the Wilton decorating kit, took a Wilton 1 course (yes your education should be factored into the cost of your cakes too!), then the ingredients, disposable bags, etc... I spent probably $250 on that cake all said and done. Now, of course, I get to keep the supplies, but they were a cost and I should recuperate them at some point in cake selling since I NEVER use those pans and most of those supplies for home use (as DH and rest only like European style cakes that have frostings that don't pipe well or at all).
So, wouldn't it be nice if we were all consistent in our pricing and not undercutting competition or trying to compete with Wal-mart buyers? Wouldn't it be nice if we all left ourselves with at least earning $12 to $15 an hour?
Then why don't we form a pact that we will not undersell our product???? We are only hurting ourselves (and everyone else really) when we ask for too little even if we aren't great decorators yet. I'm not great by ANY MEANS, but I still try to value my time and effort!
melissa
It would be great it! I personally do not use a matrix. The only flaw I see is all our food cost varies. I use all butter and butter is about $3.29 a pound. It could be more or less elsewhere!
I would love to charge the national average which is $5.00 a slice. Even a small scale bakery can undercut us freelance cake designers. They get all there ingredients wholesale so that cuts there cost way down.
It is a hard issue and I feel underpayed a many times!
The only flaw I see is all our food cost varies. I use all butter and butter is about $3.29 a pound. It could be more or less elsewhere!
My ingredients are expensive too. I only use butter too (usually $3.29 to $3.50 a pound too) and organic, free range eggs (usually 2.99 a dozen) and unbleached flour, ($2.99 a 5 lbs. bag) and Domino sugar (as it's so much nicer) but I forgot how much it is and so on.
And really $5 a slice is average? For home decorators or bakeries?
Melissa
Here is a quote from the knot.com
go to link and read step #5
http://www.theknot.com/ch_article.html?Object=A50509180150&keywordID=145&keywordType=2&parentID=527
From what I have seen and heard, Charges go from just under $1 (Wamart) to up to $22/slice. But, you'll also see differences in serving sizes as well as detail and skill.
Our "sheet" sizes differ as well. From doing the math, if 9x13 is a 1/4 sheet, then 11x15 is 1/3 sheet and 12x18 is 1/2 sheet, but some people use 11x15 as 1/2 sheet.
This is a GREAT idea, but we need a standard.
The only flaw I see is all our food cost varies. I use all butter and butter is about $3.29 a pound. It could be more or less elsewhere!
My ingredients are expensive too. I only use butter too (usually $3.29 to $3.50 a pound too) and organic, free range eggs (usually 2.99 a dozen) and unbleached flour, ($2.99 a 5 lbs. bag) and Domino sugar (as it's so much nicer) but I forgot how much it is and so on.
And really $5 a slice is average? For home decorators or bakeries?
Melissa
We all use the most expensive price for the calculation, that way no one comes short. 
Great idea, btw, berryblondeboys!
From what I have seen and heard, Charges go from just under $1 (Wamart) to up to $22/slice. But, you'll also see differences in serving sizes as well as detail and skill.
....
This is a GREAT idea, but we need a standard.
I agree wtih this statement...
You have to take into consideration that Prices are usually based on SKILL and POPULARITY Of the cake decorator.
There are some SUPER talented people that are SAHB, unlic..whatever and it's a shame that some people will always percieve most of them as ENTHUSIASTS. Some of these people's talents are on par with the BIGGESTS NAMES OUT HERE.
There are some Lic Bakers that should pack their tips and GO HOME, they have NO clue...
So, standards should beging there! lol..
In the SKILLS department.
There is just NO WAY that you can make an industry standard as far as payment is concern, there is just no way that a newly minted cake decoartor that has never held a bag in his or her hand can charge the same as someone that can execute a cake on par with Colette Peters, Ron Ben Israel, Nicolas Lodge, Kerry Vincent..so forth and so on.
I myself have been decorating for almost 3 decades and I STILL couldn't charge what they do!! 
I haven't read this whole thread yet, so bear with me... But if we are talking setting industry standards on cake sizes, I'd like to contribute something here that I learned from a local bakery.
1/4 sheet = 9 x 13 = 24 servings (Cut 4 down, 6 across)
1/3 sheet = 11 x 15 = 30-35 servings (Cut 5 down, 7 across)
1/2 sheet = 14 x 19 = 40-50 servings (cut 6 down, 8 across)
3/4 sheet = 2 11 x 15 side by side = 60-70 servings (cut 7 down, 10 across)
Full sheet = 2 14 x 19 side by side = 90-100 servings (cut 8 down, 11 across)
These measurements I use and find them to be most effective. It accomodates everyone's requests and it's easy to determine how many people it will feed (as well as teaching the customer how to cut their own cake!)
I often think about this. Even though I haven't started "charging" for cakes yet.
If you keep track of your time, maybe $14.00 hour and then add all the ingredients, how would that compare to your standard pricing cost?
I don't do much fondant and gumpaste so my cakes don't take very long. I am just an amatuer.
I think it is a great idea to come up with a standard way to calculate a base price for your cakes, but agreeing to a set price is a problem on several fronts.
#1 - Each local market has different forces at work. Cost of supplies, # of competitors, quality of competitors, supply vs demand, all will affect what a decorator is charging. A new decorator may choose to undercut the market to acquire market share. etc...
#2 - In most places price fixing is illegal. The US economy is based on an free-market philosophy, and price fixing can lead to class action lawsuits.
I would recommend that CC members should band together to determine the best method for calculating base cake price, but then each individual seller needs to make a personal adjustment to that number to account for their particular situation.
Good point about price fixing, Heath! I agree. There can be no standard price anyway because skill must come into play as well. I can bake the pants off most people, but am teaching myself to decorate (slowly I might add) so I could NEVER charge the prices that so many of you deserve!
Amber
I totally agree about there being a difference between skill levels. If I were an excellent decorator and had a huge demand, I would be charging a LOT more as my time would be more precious. but there is a minimum for ALL people. No one should be working for free or under minimum wage, period. There's a reason it's called minimum wage!!!
Even a base price is hard... I too am a pretty good baker. People really, really like the taste of my cakes. It's the decorating that's needign to come along and I haven't had a lot of practice decorating - the cakes you see, of the decorated cakes I have done EVER before and after taking the first Wilton course. Now, undecorated cakes (or simple frosting) I've made a lot, but I wasn't going for anything other than standard presentation.
So for me, I think my base price of the actual cake would be higher than someone who uses a $1 cake mix and cheap eggs and canola oil. My decorating/labor fee wouldn't be as high as others (even though I am licensed) because I don't have the skill to garner such a wage.
What really IRKS me is the CCers (and those not on CC) who make a cake for cost just because they like to bake which then undercuts everyone else.
So, price fixing isn't an issue as there is no way that I could charge the same as 75% of the people here, but if you SELL cakes, I think there just be some unwritten code that says, you shouldn't work for less than minimum wage on your cakes = period. Otherwise, don't sell your cakes and just give them away as gifts. Plus, REALLY see how much you spend on your cake - count that luster dust and tools and cake boards, etc... those are COSTS...
Is that harsh?
Melissa
No, Melissa- I don't think that's harsh at all! Anyone who doesn't take into account ALL their costs (including overhead) and price accordingly is being foolish and losing money! That's how so many people go out of business so quickly- that and shoddy product, which seems to be the problem in my town.
Amber
Here's an updated version of the serving guide I posted in a different thread. It has the BARE MINIMUM prices I would charge if I were selling cakes. Most people will probably laugh and double, triple, or more the prices, but at least it's a starting place. This is PDF, PM if you need Excell or Word to make changes on.
I haven't read this whole thread yet, so bear with me... But if we are talking setting industry standards on cake sizes, I'd like to contribute something here that I learned from a local bakery.
1/4 sheet = 9 x 13 = 24 servings (Cut 4 down, 6 across)
1/3 sheet = 11 x 15 = 30-35 servings (Cut 5 down, 7 across)
1/2 sheet = 14 x 19 = 40-50 servings (cut 6 down, 8 across)
3/4 sheet = 2 11 x 15 side by side = 60-70 servings (cut 7 down, 10 across)
Full sheet = 2 14 x 19 side by side = 90-100 servings (cut 8 down, 11 across)
These measurements I use and find them to be most effective. It accomodates everyone's requests and it's easy to determine how many people it will feed (as well as teaching the customer how to cut their own cake!)
thank you so much for this, I'm going to print it out and put it on a sticker for the sheet cake boxes!
You are so helpful with this.
What a great idea, RB! I'm gonna steal- um, borrow- that one.
Amber
Here's an updated version of the serving guide I posted in a different thread. It has the BARE MINIMUM prices I would charge if I were selling cakes. Most people will probably laugh and double, triple, or more the prices, but at least it's a starting place. This is PDF, PM if you need Excell or Word to make changes on.
Thanks for the Matrix! However, I couldn't charge that little, a 6" 10" tier cake, for me, costs at least $25 to make (when everything is factored in - so hard to really figure out the costs!), so if I made those cakes, that would leave me $30 for "profit", divide that by 4 hours of labor (and it would probably take me more), leaves me with $7 an hour for 4 hours, and $6 an hour for 5 hours of work... That, to me, is just way too little to make it worth the effort.
melissa
Here's an updated version of the serving guide I posted in a different thread. It has the BARE MINIMUM prices I would charge if I were selling cakes. Most people will probably laugh and double, triple, or more the prices, but at least it's a starting place. This is PDF, PM if you need Excell or Word to make changes on.
Thanks for the Matrix! However, I couldn't charge that little, a 6" 10" tier cake, for me, costs at least $25 to make (when everything is factored in - so hard to really figure out the costs!), so if I made those cakes, that would leave me $30 for "profit", divide that by 4 hours of labor (and it would probably take me more), leaves me with $7 an hour for 4 hours, and $6 an hour for 5 hours of work... That, to me, is just way too little to make it worth the effort.
melissa
Totally understand that, Melissa! Like I said, most people would have to increase the prices big time. But, for the ones who are worried about charging too much when providing 60 servings for $40, at least this can be a baseline to not go under. It's about $1/wedding serving, which is too cheap anyway, but might work for those who aren't comfortable charging more, or as a "gift" price.
Okay, so how could/should it be updated? I use doctored mixes and crisco bc, so it would cost me $10-15 including ingredients and supplies to make a 6/10 tier. Also, with just bc and a border, it would take up to 4 hours, leaving me with over $10/hour profit. What suggestions do you ladies (and gentlemen) have for updating this?
I agree with the idea of a standard way to calculate a base price. As for me I wouldn't even break even on cost charging some of the amounts I have seen posted here. Of course some of my ingredients are more expensive because I have to use all certified kosher parve ingredients, and some things are just difficult to get in my area, so I have to special order. I can't even save by purchasing my flour at Sam's Club because it isn't kosher. Plus, I have to pay a fee to have my kitchen supervised by a Rabbi. I have to factor that in, too.
How about "standards" or suggestions for explaining why your prices are what they are. I haven't quite figured out how to explain this to some of my customers. The people who are strictly kosher in my area are used to having to pay more for kosher items. They also know if they want kosher bakery fresh cakes and cookies the nearest place is 3 hours away. The customers I have trouble convincing are those who don't keep kosher themselves but need to provide a kosher dessert for someone else. They just don't understand why it is so much more expensive. they seem to think I am price gouging because it's kosher.
Just some other thoughts,
Kathi
Okay, so how could/should it be updated? I use doctored mixes and crisco bc, so it would cost me $10-15 including ingredients and supplies to make a 6/10 tier. Also, with just bc and a border, it would take up to 4 hours, leaving me with over $10/hour profit. What suggestions do you ladies (and gentlemen) have for updating this?
that's why I said it would be impossible to have a uniform base price. I use butter, not crisco, I make cakes from scratch, with organic ingredients, etc. So our "base" prices just couldn't be the same. So, what might be a good base price for you, wouldn't be a good base price for me!
Also, you said your ingredients cost $10-$15, what about other cake supplies? electricity? etc? are those factored in?
it's a really tough thing to figure out, that's why I was really struggling with pricing last night... so tough!!!
Melissa
Okay, so how could/should it be updated? I use doctored mixes and crisco bc, so it would cost me $10-15 including ingredients and supplies to make a 6/10 tier. Also, with just bc and a border, it would take up to 4 hours, leaving me with over $10/hour profit. What suggestions do you ladies (and gentlemen) have for updating this?
that's why I said it would be impossible to have a uniform base price. I use butter, not crisco, I make cakes from scratch, with organic ingredients, etc. So our "base" prices just couldn't be the same. So, what might be a good base price for you, wouldn't be a good base price for me!
Also, you said your ingredients cost $10-$15, what about other cake supplies? electricity? etc? are those factored in?
it's a really tough thing to figure out, that's why I was really struggling with pricing last night... so tough!!!
Melissa
Yes, everything is calculated in. Doctored cake mixes, and those are DH and never over 88 cents each. Eggs are about $2 for 30, butter when I use that is $1.66-1.88/lb, sleeves of filling run $2-4, a batch of mmf is $2.25. The only things that would throw my costs higher is for durable goods, such as pans, cake stands, etc. My favorite cake stand is a large vase bought for $4, that I can fill with anything to coordinate. My cakes are not kosher or organic, so it's easier for me to keep costs down.
Okay, so how could/should it be updated? I use doctored mixes and crisco bc, so it would cost me $10-15 including ingredients and supplies to make a 6/10 tier. Also, with just bc and a border, it would take up to 4 hours, leaving me with over $10/hour profit. What suggestions do you ladies (and gentlemen) have for updating this?
that's why I said it would be impossible to have a uniform base price. I use butter, not crisco, I make cakes from scratch, with organic ingredients, etc. So our "base" prices just couldn't be the same. So, what might be a good base price for you, wouldn't be a good base price for me!
Also, you said your ingredients cost $10-$15, what about other cake supplies? electricity? etc? are those factored in?
it's a really tough thing to figure out, that's why I was really struggling with pricing last night... so tough!!!
Melissa
Yes, everything is calculated in. Doctored cake mixes, and those are DH and never over 88 cents each. Eggs are about $2 for 30, butter when I use that is $1.66-1.88/lb, sleeves of filling run $2-4, a batch of mmf is $2.25. The only things that would throw my costs higher is for durable goods, such as pans, cake stands, etc. My favorite cake stand is a large vase bought for $4, that I can fill with anything to coordinate. My cakes are not kosher or organic, so it's easier for me to keep costs down. Chocolates are my biggest expense, but those would NOT be included in the base price.
I now see why I have such a fight with the American expats I make cakes for! Everything in the USA is so cheap! Take for example the cost of the ingredients for a basic 2 layer 9in vanilla cake, plus a batch of buttercream to decorate it that I pay here (in $ equivalents):
500g Butter = $3.11
10 Eggs = $2.97
500g Sugar = $0.85
500g Flour = $0.45
Vanilla extract = $1.45
Some milk = $0.10
250g butter = $1.55
500g powdered sugar = $2.40
= $12.88
Now factor in my time for baking & decorating (usually 4-5 hours), utilites, boards, boxes etc. When I charge them $58 for a great tasting and looking cake, they act like I've lost my mind! Now I see it's because they are used to paying $30-$40 for the same cake (although not necessarily scratch baked), back home!
So for us non-USAers, they'd have to be allowances for pricing too!
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