How Fragile *is* Cake These Days?
Decorating By indydebi Updated 29 Nov 2009 , 10:05pm by cindycraig
We use thermometers when cooking meat all the time, so we don't OVERCOOK the meat. Using the "when the juices run clear" method is actually not a good method because it leads to consistent overcooking. Using a thermometer is simply the best and most effective tool for ensuring the meat is properly cooked. For example, both DH and I love our steaks just barely medium rare. Using a thermometer, we can pull the meat off the grill just as it hits the minimum medium rare temp and have perfect steak every time.
As for the general discussion, I think so many people don't cook any more that they don't have any understanding of food. For many people "cooking" is taking a bunch of pre-cooked frozen or canned food and reheating it. People assume for some reason that the refrigerator is this magic box of food preservation. I've seen things in friends' fridges that should NOT be refrigerated in the first place!
K 8 - I did an "experiment" a few years ago, (and I got FLAMED for it BIG TIME on here when I posted about it so I don't do it anymore) What I did was take a piece of each kind of cake (one from a mix, one from scratch) and put them in a petrie dish with the gelatin like substance in it (got flamed for using the proper word, since I am not a scientist so I don't use the technical terms now either) and waited to see how long it took to grow things. It took 2 days for the scratch one to grow fuzzies. That was when I decided any tiered cake from me would have a mix in it.
I got food poisoning about 18 years ago (along with 300 other folks who ate at the same restaurant) and if you have ever had it, you won't forget it! I do not take my food policing to the extremes though, if you use common sense, you should be good to go. IMO.
I think one of the big factors for people being so cautious about refrigeration, is the fact that people will sue you for anything these days. I think it is problably more of a precautionary measure than a germaphobe, thing, at least for those who are in the food service business. I usually complete my fondant covered cakes 2 days prior to delivery and I don't refrigerate. However, I use fillings and icings that don't need refrigeration. This all brings up one of the big questions I have. For those of you who do all of the "gourmet flavors" and are doing fondant covered cakes, what is your timeline for completing your cake. I like to know that my cake is complete a day or two in advance, just in case you need time for error etc. Are you doing those cake in advance or like the day of or day before the celebration??? Alot of these different flavors definitely look like they need refrigeration and I don't refrigerate fondant cakes, doesn't work for me. I have to agree, though that we have all become to "phobic" about the whole issue of refrigeration, good common sense is all you really need.
As a child I ate soil, on one occasion a worm and was fine. Cake left out for a few hours isnt going to kill me. Then again I only use Buttercream and raspberry jam, sometimes a chocolate fudge filling but they never last long. Also its not hot here it's the UK after all. I am very careful with chicken and have seperate boards for it but I Love my steak mooing much to my mothers despair haha. Cream cakes tend to be stored in the fridge but on a buffet table at home they get left out and again everyone's fine. In our house it's smell it and if it smells ok give it taste. Best before dates are just that. It may be best before doesnt mean as soon as that clock ticks over it immediately goes bad. Common sense works, just lick the darn bowl it tastes gooooooooood.
xx
I was thinking about this whole subject the other day. I am probably one of the few people who makes IMBC with carton egg whites, after finding a brand that consistently works. I just don't want to take the chance of using regular eggs. But I DO leave it out for no more than two days.
My husband and I ate out the other night and I ordered some steak .... Now I used to order it well...no pink...make sure it's cooked! Didn't want any germs. Til I tasted someone's who still had a little pink in it and saw how FABULOUS it tasted, and how much easier to chew it was!
And don't get me started on my mom....she regularly laps up the batter from my bowls....cuts mold off of cheese and bread....adds a month or two to expiration dates...takes last week's dinner for lunch next week, leaves it in the car, heats it in meltable plastic, adds lead paint chips to it for garnish and leaves the house with no coat on!
And don't get me started on my mom....she regularly laps up the batter from my bowls....cuts mold off of cheese and bread....adds a month or two to expiration dates...takes last week's dinner for lunch next week, leaves it in the car, heats it in meltable plastic, adds lead paint chips to it for garnish and leaves the house with no coat on!
omg! Your mom and I must be related, Ill eat leftovers that are from last week too, and my favorite salad garnish are those tasty paint chips!!! 
I cook my turkeys upside down and squish all the juice back into the meat that I have de-boned before we eat. Then I make the gravy with the liquid I cooked the giblets in. I do bake some stuffing in the bird-it's not the same if you don't.
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However--my hugest total point that I hope the person up thread who mentioned the chemicals in cake mix considers is:
All of our ingredients are literally considered chemicals because that's the definition of a chemical ex, flour, sugar, baking powder etc..
Then where do we draw the line? Yes I understand we mean using the powder that comes in the cake mix box. But we can purchase, measure and add those exact same ingredients into a 'scratch cake' to get the better shelf life and emulsing/emulsion properties that are so desirable in cake mix but it's literally a scratch cake.
So now what.
Ok Sorry Kate didn't mean to upset you, I just have a real big bee in my bonnet about artificial this that and the other and I like to know my cakes have real eggs, butter, sugar, etc.. in them the only thing I add which isn't natural is baking powder. I guess that's where I draw the line.
White granulated or powdered sugar is not natural. It is an extremley refined chemical.
I was/am not upset.
Chemicals are us!
And my point is that our lines are all individually drawn --we're all of us all over the place yes?
Do you use food color? That's refined from bug bodies & weird sh*t.
If we have to arghhh Not Lie--then we're all in Big Trouble. 
How ironic.
This is a really interesting thread.
I think I fall on the 'relaxed' end of the paranoia scale when it comes to food. I do not refrigerate jam, syrup, ketchup, butter (currently being used), and most other condiments. The fridge is for meat, dairy, eggs, perishable fruits and veggies and leftovers.
I keep both kitchens my home and baking kitchens clean, but not surgically so. I was amazed once when someone on CC was getting ready for her inspection and had been going round the kitchen with q-tips and rubbing alcohol. To me that is simply ridiculous. I agree with those above that the paranoia about food saftey has been fed by the cleaning products industry and others who have a stake in people over-cleaning and throwing away food.
We come from a loooong line of people who lived without refrigeration and ate stuff that probably had seen better days. I don't think Mrs Cro Magnon looked at a piece of week-old meat and threw it out because it was a little green around the edges. Heck, my granny didn't even have a fridge - she had a pantry - I remember her having a bucket of cold water with her milk bottles standing in it. I'm not saying modern refrigeration is anything but a good thing, but I do think that our systems are designed to deal with basic food nasties, and we should use simple common sense to deal with the more serious ones. Refrigerating cake is unnecessary and spoils the taste and texture.
As an aside to this. Has anyone seen the movie 'Food Inc.'? My friend (a fruit and veggies buyer) recommended it but I haven't got around to it yet.
My .02 Mom's, and GMom's cakes were most likely filled with just frosting, and not torted. Leaving a cake out, and going stale faster also leads to the scratch cakes are dry theory.
With more people using merangue BCs, and more exotic fillings. Refrigeration is needed. Would any of us want to eat a cake with a mousse filling that has been left out for 2-3 days, not me.
On the turkey thing. Now you know why the breast is alwsys dried out. You have to cook it extra long just to get the stuffing cooked.
Mike
The reason you're not supposed to cook the turkey with the stuffing in it is that the interior of the stuffing might not get to the right temp to kill the salmonella if there is any. If you cook the stuffing separately the breast meat won't be dried out, either
Yes, I know, but you have to cook the turkey so long to get the stuffing to the temp that the bird is overcooked, and dried out.
Mike
No, I mean that if you cook the stuffing in a separate dish and not inside the bird, the meat doesn't have to dry out because you don't have anything in the cavity to heat up. When the cavity is full of stuffing you have to make sure it gets to the right temp, then the outside of the bird is usually too well done.
I am so glad that this thread got started, it is soooo true.
People, how do you think we build immune systems?? Why do you think children now have so many more allergies. When I was in elementary school no one heard of peanut allergies, and no one heard of purel either!
I always leave my cakes out a day and they are fine, the filling is fine too.
I made a cake for a friend once, 2 weeks later I was at her house again and the cake was still out, uncovered on the counter, the filling had cream cheese and whipped cream in it. Our very pregnant friend was there too and took a slice of the cake, I told her how old it was, since I didn't want her or the baby to get sick. She ate it anyways and said it was really good (not sure if this was the pregnancy talking...) but the moral of the story is she is fine and has a healthy baby, no one got sick.
I plan of being the mom at the park letting her kids eat sand, people need to get a little sick to stay healthy!
And one last thing, think about what penicillin is.....
Debi, you're dating yourself, but you're also absolutely right. I also remember the cake sitting under the glass dome, and even the fresh-from-the-farm eggs sitting on the counter, instead of in the refrigerator.
My opinion is that society has evolved into an extremely litigious creature, and even though someone may have eaten some bad seafood at an event, there is a fear the blame might be put on the cake for their illness, instead, because it may have been baked on Thursday, frosted and decorated on Friday, and delivered on Saturday.
Theresa 
I am so careful, and I like to stick to a timeline to ensure peak freshness, pay attention to baking times, pay attention to expiration dates, and keep a clean and sanitary studio. Basically, everything I need to to keep within (and beyond) health dept. requirements.
That said.....my fave snack in the world is raw hamburger meat doused in salt. How's that for food safety???
.....my fave snack in the world is raw hamburger meat doused in salt. How's that for food safety???
That's not unusual around here. Add some melted butter and onions, and you have a version of Lebanese kibbe.
Theresa
However, one Thanksgiving, after slaving for days, I spent the evening on the cold tile floor. I had licked a spoon with raw cheesecake batter. No one else got sick, I had been home alone for days cooking so don't think I ran into a sick person who gave it to me, so I have to assume it was the raw egg. That raw egg must have been rendered harmless in the cooking process.
I would venture to say that it wasn't the raw egg that made you sick .... it was a BAD egg that made you sick.
Remember, Rocky Balboa drank raw eggs!
Hubby made eggs for breakfast a few weeks ago. We had checked out the local Aldi's and bought the eggs there. He was throwing up before he finished eating the eggs. He was fine by the end of the day, but was sicker than a dog all day long. Evidently we got bad eggs.
As anyone who has taken a food safety class knows, some bacteria can be cooked out of foods .... but some cannot (i.e. fish bacterias).
And on the turkey thing. My mom was one who threw her bird in the oven at 250 degrees before she went to bed and when we got up in the morning, the bird was done and the oven was free for other baking. Everytime I tell this story, I get shocked looks with reprimands of the dangers of baking a turkey at that low of a temp. It was stuffed. We all lived.
Not flamed Loucinda... just exposing the lack of scientific process in your experiment... it's experiments like this that cause undue worry. Don't contribute to the problem. Bacteria isn't fuzzy... it was likely mold or a fungus... and that came from the air... not your cakes. Heck, it could have come from your gelatine substance... but we've been over this before.
This country is SO germphobic it's comic to me. 90% (and I'm being kind) of the antibacterial cleaning products sold don't work at all. Follow food safety guidelines yes, but you aren't going to die if you eat a cake (scratch or mix) that hasn't been in the fridge since it came from the oven. I do think a lot of it stems from misinformation and lack of education about how microbes proliferate. That and the media. Scare tactics sell products...
As anyone who has taken a food safety class knows, some bacteria can be cooked out of foods .... but some cannot (i.e. fish bacterias).
And on the turkey thing. My mom was one who threw her bird in the oven at 250 degrees before she went to bed and when we got up in the morning, the bird was done and the oven was free for other baking. Everytime I tell this story, I get shocked looks with reprimands of the dangers of baking a turkey at that low of a temp. It was stuffed. We all lived.
I'm in the process of taking that class now. The first class was on Thursday night. We covered half the book. The other half is next week. The third week is review, and then the test.
Debi, I love your Mom! I throw my turkey into the oven at 275, before I go to bed. When the smell wakes me up, it's done. Even the meat thermometer says so. My grandmother cooked like that, and now, many years later, so do I. I cook all my roasts on low heat, then turn up the temp to brown at the end.
Theresa
White granulated or powdered sugar is not natural. It is an extremley refined chemical.
I was/am not upset.
Chemicals are us!
And my point is that our lines are all individually drawn --we're all of us all over the place yes?
Do you use food color? That's refined from bug bodies & weird sh*t.
If we have to arghhh Not Lie--then we're all in Big Trouble.
How ironic.
Kate I get it I know sugar and flour are refined I'm just saying as a PERSONAL preference I like to know what's in my baking and that's as natural as I can get (and I used unrefined caster sugar). Yes of course I use food colour and I hate that it's full of e numbers more than bug bodies (I've seen what it does to my daughter) I'm currently sourcing natural food colours from chef master in the states as an alternative but in the meantime we just dont' eat the coloured stuff simple as it's a decorating tool to me and that's it.
Idon't understand your last line, but whatever it is I'm sorry as you seem really bugged by me.
I have to agree that I do use a thermometer for meat now because I like the end results better. I like my chicken breasts better now than I did before thermometers. I also stuff my turkey and cook it breast down for 90% of the cooking time and then flip it over to brown for the last half hour. My trusty thermometer reassures me that both the meat and the stuffing are in the safe zone and we enjoy a nice moist turkey and lovely traditional stuffing. I am not against using thermometers at all, I just think it is funny how once you have one you feel like you can't cook without it. Ours died a while back and I couldn't believe how lost I felt without it when 3 years ago I wouldn't have even thought to use one.
I do agree that people do not know a lot about how microbes work. I was a genetics/microbiology major in University and I am always hearing things about bacteria and viruses that drive me nuts because the info some people have is so far off base from reality. I do not think it is bad to be safe but I do think that we don't want to sterilize our environments so much that we supress our immune responses. I don't like "anti-bacterial" products for two reasons - 1) most don't work and give us a false sense of security and 2) the ones that do work kill most but not all bacteria and the ones that survive usually adapt and become stronger meaning that over time the product kills less and less of the microbes.
As for eggs - My sister was taught in a foods course that cases of samonella in eggs are from contamination of the egg (eg: egg has a crack in the shell to allow samonella to enter the inside of the egg or when people cracked the egg the shell was contaminated and the samonella was carried into the mix with the egg during the process of cracking it.)
One thing that the media does that makes these types of things interesting is that they love to talk about medical/scientific studies that just came out. The problem is that they state the findings of the study without any of the background info on now the experiment was conducted. Without that information, it sounds like the study findings are fact but in science so many results can be off if the experiment was not run correctly. There are a lot of variances that could contribute to study findings. I am not saying that studies are bad but that we should learn more about them before we accept the findings as gospel fact.
This has become an interesting topic for sure. I hope my post don't seem like I am ranting because that is not where I am coming from. I admittedly have been "brainwashed" to some degree as well since I do refrigerate things lately that I would never have refridgerated in the past. I rarely refridgerate cakes though except in cases where the filling is especially perishable. I do have to agree that in large part this germophobia movement is due to our society's love of litigation.
More Americans should go to Europe and see how food is stored. My MIL keeps her stew out on the stove for a week and just keeps adding to it. So does everyone else she knows--they have done it that way for generations and never gotten sick. Her refrigerator is very small and is barley cold enough to get pop cold. She keeps all juice and drinks at room temperature.
Last week at my church one of the cooks threw out 2 huge containers of chili and one of cheese sauce because they had come from the freezer, been cooked and these were leftovers. She didn't want to freeze them again for fear of them going bad.
What a contrast!
That said.....my fave snack in the world is raw hamburger meat doused in salt. How's that for food safety??? [/quote]
ROTFLMAO!!!YEAH!!!!I have been eating this since I was a kid,d#@m tasty treat if you ask me!And I have to say I cant remember the last time I actually baked the cookie dough its normally gone before the oven heats up!
All this antibacterial junk is going to kill us in the end, not the bacteria....kills all the good bacteria too, aside from all the very nasty chemicals most of them are made of....don't get me started......
Back to the actual topic. My scratch cake is better 3-4 days after its baked, and its not moldy, stale, or bad bacteria infested.....I find the same with boxed cake mixes on the rare occasion that I use them (that being said I have no problem with mixes, I just like to bake from scratch--I think its fun). I flat out refuse to eat cake on the same day it is made-yucky.
I refrigerate those cakes with actual perishable fillings, and I don't otherwise--It seems to me that the refrigerator will dry a cake out faster than leaving it out on a counter or freezing it.
If you have a bad recipe, then your cakes will probably be stale, dry, whatever no matter when you eat them. same if you use a bad mix--and they are out there.
I think our country is just way to germaphobic and obsessed with what I want NOW--even when that fresh cake would taste much better a few days from now.
Ok Sorry Kate didn't mean to upset you, I just have a real big bee in my bonnet about artificial this that and the other and I like to know my cakes have real eggs, butter, sugar, etc.. in them the only thing I add which isn't natural is baking powder. I guess that's where I draw the line.
Baking powder isn't really that artificial. It's made from baking soda and cream of tartar. Sometimes it has cornstarch added to it. Baking soda is made from table salt or trona ore and cream of tartar is a byproduct of making wine. If you're really concerned about the environment, then baking soda is not an especially green product to use, unless it's made from trona ore. Otherwise, the process of converting salt to sodium bicarbonate produces some pollutants.
Just for the record, every cake mix that I've ever used has needed eggs added to it. So they all have real eggs too
[quote="TitiaM"]All this antibacterial junk is going to kill us in the end, not the bacteria....kills all the good bacteria too, aside from all the very nasty chemicals most of them are made of....don't get me started......
I feel the same way about vaccines.
More Americans should go to Europe and see how food is stored. My MIL keeps her stew out on the stove for a week and just keeps adding to it. So does everyone else she knows--they have done it that way for generations and never gotten sick. Her refrigerator is very small and is barley cold enough to get pop cold. She keeps all juice and drinks at room temperature.
Last week at my church one of the cooks threw out 2 huge containers of chili and one of cheese sauce because they had come from the freezer, been cooked and these were leftovers. She didn't want to freeze them again for fear of them going bad.
What a contrast!
We've all weakened our immune systems....and we can't handle the bacteria anymore because of it. If we ate half of what they ate in a lot of other countries we'd all get sick because our bodies don't know how to handle it anymore.
I've had food poisoning and not only is it awful, but I can tell you that you feel REALLY stupid when you knew it was possible to get sick from eating something and then you do!
But, I have to say, as a hobby baker, I've been reading these boards assuming it is mostly people afraid of liability when they talk of refrigerating cakes which should be "non-perishable". I'm not running into many folks who are refrigerating your run of the mill baked goods. I still see cakes on counters, under domes, etc., brownies in the baking dish covered with plastic wrap, cookies in cookie jars, etc. Do the rest of you not often see that?
I love the idea of popping the turkey in the oven the night before, what a great way to free up the oven for T-Day.
My kids (and I ) lick the bowl AND eat raw cookie dough. My cakes & muffins are ALWAYS better after sitting out for a few days and I agree that the antibacterial phenomenon is what's going to kill us all, not the bacteria.
This may seem off topic but sort of related I guess. Why is it a big no-no to stuff a turkey all of a sudden?!? We've been doing it for generations in my family and truth be told we still do. I've actually had people gasp when I tell them we stuff our turkey!
I grew up on turkeys that my Mom would stuff the night before she went to bed, put the bird in the garage "to keep cold" because it didn't fit in our refrigerator (we're talking 26 to 30lb turkey) then she'd wake up at 5a.m. and put it in the oven.
We all survived.
The whole thing about "stuffing" turkeys is to be sure that the stuffing is cold when you put it in the bird.....experts caution us to not put warm or hot stuffing into a cold bird.
Ya know even though I grew up on this method I can't bring myself to do it....I wake up at 5 and while half asleep I'm spooning my cold stuffing into my cold bird....ughhhh I hate Thanksgiving. No I don't just kidding.
Reading through the replies, it seems we Europeans must just be made of hardier stuff. I certainly don't think we are negligent with food safety, but some of our normal practices horrify you in the US (storing eggs at room temp for example), and yet we are all still alive to tell the tale to you gals & guys.
I bake from scratch and all of my wedding cakes are fondant covered (or have been so far), and I start the process on Wednesday for a Saturday wedding, and I can assure you that there is nothing stale about my cakes. They never see the inside of a fridge. A good recipe is paramount, only poor workmen blame their tools !
My mom thawed the turkey in the bathtub a few times because it didn't fit in the sink. It was still wrapped at least
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