JenniferAtwood Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 3:04pm
post #1 of

The bakery industry has been used to paying licensing fees for many years it is a form of paying royalties to the creator of images when we all clearly benefit from their work. When Provo Craft approached us in the very beginning about testing the Cricut Cake, we asked about licensing. They explained the Angel Policy and that it basically allowed for 200 cakes a year using the same design elements. We mentioned that for use in mass production (i.e. cupcakes, cookies, etc) this would not be feasible and the baking industry would need more than that. They promised that they would eventually come out with an affordable professional license. It is the existence of this license, a license we retail bakers essentially asked for, that now got them into a lot of hot water with every one.

We received a call this morning from our contact at Provo Craft. He asked us to relay to the industry as a whole that the Angel Policy on Provo Craft content would be suspended for the creation of cakes. This means that anyone can use any of the cartridges, with the exception of third-party licenses such as Disney, to make as many cakes as they want and sell them wherever they want. Provo Craft said they will announce the news some time today.

72 replies
sadsmile Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 3:17pm
post #2 of

That still isn't going to hold. They can't put a limit on what the purchaser of their product does. They are withdrawing it because they simply can not place that kind of restriction on use after sale.

Lcubed82 Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 3:17pm
post #3 of

Thank you for the info you have provided all along regarding the Cake.

leah_s Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 3:24pm
post #4 of

So they "heard" the uproar from the Cake Central community?

KHalstead Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 3:26pm
post #5 of

so basically Provo craft is being "KIND ENOUGH" to allow us to do something we were already allowed to do??

Kinda like how they "allowed" the lady that actually invented using the machine for gumpaste/fondant pieces to have the privilege of demonstrating the technique before they sent her away and started making millions on HER revised invention?

sadsmile Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 3:27pm
post #6 of

Seriously if the Policy was enforceable then they would let it stand and be legally able to charge for it. Obviously it doesn't and they can not and now are back tracking out of it, with this "allowance." Rubbish!

Classycakes Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 3:34pm
post #7 of

It's easy for them to be magnanimous when they obviously don't have a legal leg to stand on. There's an old saying "What goes around, comes around!" The shady dealings going on with this company and the controversy swirling around all aspects of the cake cricut in particular will absolutely come back to haunt them. It is obvious they have lost a tremendous amount of respect, not only in the caking community but as well in the scrapbooking community. Hopefully they will learn from this.

tootie0809 Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 3:46pm
post #8 of

Now I'm just waiting for them to make some sort of exception stating that this new policy only applies to creations made with the Cricut Cake but if you cut with another machine like the Expression then the licensing fees and copyright laws still are in effect. I wouldn't put it past them. I'd love to see who polices what was cut with what though. LOL!

TobiasWilhelm Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 3:47pm
post #9 of

There seems to be somewhat of a misconception. PC can not tell you what you can and can not do with the machine. They can, and did until this morning, limit the use of their content.

This is commonplace in the graphic design industry - one of my real jobs is in advertising and I know from experience. If I for example license a particular image for a marketing campaign, the price will vary depending on the medium I use it in (newspaper, TV, billboard) and the area the campaign runs in (local, regional, national).

If I create an image, I may allow a non-profit to use it for free. I may license it to a client for a postcard - that does not give either of them the right to do with it what they want.

We have some Garfield Kopy Kake cards - just because we have them to use on cakes doesn't mean that I can sell copies to other bakeries or start selling Garfield Tshirts and bed sheets. Use restrictions on licenses work that way - I for one am glad that the creators of the images license their content to begin with, otherwise we would not be able to sell ANY cakes with their characters.

Tobias

sadsmile Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 4:11pm

Hey Jen, with regards to that old adage, "Don't shoot the messenger." Are you sure you really want to "speak" for PC? You never know what harebrained thing is going to happen next- just saying. icon_lol.gif

Dizzymaiden Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 4:20pm

wow I had no idea about any of this! I feel torn about buying it. Sometimes you see something and want it...without really giving it any thought and that is what I did. I have talent to pipe on my own and cut out fondant with cookies cutters..but this just looked cool.

I still have those skinny jeans tucked away ...they also seemed like a good idea icon_wink.gif

costumeczar Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 4:31pm

They need to clarify this on THEIR website.

SpecialtyCakesbyKelli Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 4:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiasWilhelm

There seems to be somewhat of a misconception. PC can not tell you what you can and can not do with the machine. They can, and did until this morning, limit the use of their content.

This is commonplace in the graphic design industry - one of my real jobs is in advertising and I know from experience. If I for example license a particular image for a marketing campaign, the price will vary depending on the medium I use it in (newspaper, TV, billboard) and the area the campaign runs in (local, regional, national).

If I create an image, I may allow a non-profit to use it for free. I may license it to a client for a postcard - that does not give either of them the right to do with it what they want.

We have some Garfield Kopy Kake cards - just because we have them to use on cakes doesn't mean that I can sell copies to other bakeries or start selling Garfield Tshirts and bed sheets. Use restrictions on licenses work that way - I for one am glad that the creators of the images license their content to begin with, otherwise we would not be able to sell ANY cakes with their characters.

Tobias



I guess where I'm confused is that Provo craft DID NOT create these images. How can you copyright an image that YOU have preproduced? I have yet to see an image on the cartridge pictures that are available that is unique to provo craft.

TobiasWilhelm Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 4:42pm

PC, or someone they work with, did create the particular shapes on the cartridges and that is what they have a copyright on. That doesn't mean they copyrighted the heart shape for example, it just means they copyrighted that exact heart shape. The technical details would probably bore you to tears, but you can make the same shape in a number of ways and using different numbers of nodes.
They have their way and that's what they have copyrighted. If you can draw your own, or alter theirs, and you can copyright that and nobody else could use it in that exact version. You could license your version. You could probably even send it to Provo and they may include it in a cartridge and every time they sell one, you would get a percentage of the proceeds.

I know its a complicated concept to grasp, I would have problems understanding it too if I hadn't worked with it for many years in my advertising business, so don't feel bad for having to ask questions.

Tobias

CakeMommyTX Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 4:47pm

Okay say for example in an alternate universe I were to copy and paste an image from one of their cartridges and in the process of changing it to a svg file I altered it, is the image I created still protected by their copyright?

rosiecast Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 4:53pm

check this out: http://www.tabberone.com/Trademarks/HallOfShame/CraftSites/Cricut/Cricut.shtml

Rosie2 Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KHalstead

Kinda like how they "allowed" the lady that actually invented using the machine for gumpaste/fondant pieces to have the privilege of demonstrating the technique before they sent her away and started making millions on HER revised invention?


Exactly!!

ProvoCraft are NOT in my favorite list...I won't support a company with poor business ethics thumbsdown.gif

TobiasWilhelm Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 5:10pm

Ok - let's use the example of you downloading a copyrighted shape off the web (since you downloading a PC shape from a cart would mean you are circumventing their copy protection, which is definitely illegal). If you take that shape and alter it, and I'm not a lawyer to tell you exactly how much you need to alter it, it is now yours.

Tobias

CakeMommyTX Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 5:18pm

Well does it make a difference if I did'nt download the image directly from the cartridge, if I found it online in jpeg form and changed it, basically using it as a starting point for creating my own image.

kse Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 5:27pm

I would like to know the answer to CakeMommyTX question too!!!

Kaytecake Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 5:31pm

Has anyone used the Dover copyright free books for craftspeople? They have beautiful images in many styles and themes. They are starting to include CDs with their books.

http://store.doverpublications.com/by-subject-clip-art-and-design-on-cd-rom.html

victoria7310 Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 5:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TobiasWilhelm

I know its a complicated concept to grasp, I would have problems understanding it too if I hadn't worked with it for many years in my advertising business, so don't feel bad for having to ask questions.

Tobias



That is really condescending!

The examples you cite from your advertising experience are not the same thing at all, the context and usage is completely different as are the laws relating to the two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sadsmile

Hey Jen, with regards to that old adage, "Don't shoot the messenger." Are you sure you really want to "speak" for PC? You never know what harebrained thing is going to happen next- just saying. icon_lol.gif



I think you guys should take this advice! You say you are trying to clarify but your irrelevant examples just add confusion. Let ProvoCraft defend themselves. I know you have a relationship with them tgat you rightfully want to protect but your staunch defence of them makes it seem like you are on their payrole. I don't know or care if you are but it comes across that way.

TobiasWilhelm Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 5:38pm

I'm venturing a guess here and I'm not a lawyer, but I believe "finding" an image online that is not supposed to be there to begin with is not going to make things any better. You basically start with something that you have no license to have without owning the cartridge, so any resulting "altered" version is still off limits.
If you were to use the image off your cartridge, giving you permission to use it because you own the cart and therefore the license, you can alter it and make it yours. Does that make sense? I think the lawyers call that fruit from the forbidden tree ... or maybe I just watch too much Law & Order ...

Tobias

jen1977 Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 5:56pm

Of course people who are making money holding classes that teach others how to use the machine want to defend PC. I for one won't give PC one dime, and I'm looking in to other machines that I can use. It seems that PC is following all of the conversations about their unethical behavior related to this machine in different areas, and are now trying to cover their butts.

sadsmile Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 6:02pm

What about public domain...?

Rosie2 Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 6:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jen1977

Of course people who are making money holding classes that teach others how to use the machine want to defend PC. I for one won't give PC one dime, and I'm looking in to other machines that I can use. It seems that PC is following all of the conversations about their unethical behavior related to this machine in different areas, and are now trying to cover their butts.


thumbs_up.gifthumbs_up.gifthumbs_up.gif

Lenette Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 6:10pm

I simply won't give this company one red cent of my money. End of story for me.

Makes me thankful that when something comes out and is popular I sit back and wait (most of the time icon_biggrin.gif ) This time waiting paid off. They are shady!

Reimagining_Confections Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 6:10pm
Quote:
Quote:

jen1977 wrote:
Of course people who are making money holding classes that teach others how to use the machine want to defend PC. I for one won't give PC one dime, and I'm looking in to other machines that I can use. It seems that PC is following all of the conversations about their unethical behavior related to this machine in different areas, and are now trying to cover their butts.




thumbs_up.gifthumbs_up.gifthumbs_up.gifthumbs_up.gif Yuppers thumbs_up.gifthumbs_up.gifthumbs_up.gif

costumeczar Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 6:20pm

Try an exacto knife if you feel so strongly about it. It's cheap and easily accessible. (Not directed at anyone in particular, just a general "you")

DebbyJG Posted 16 Apr 2010 , 6:55pm

Any of the "official" information presented here does not at all answer my question about right of first sale.

Quote by @%username% on %date%

%body%