well after ton and ton's of practiceing i think i finally have it, they were frilling on the tips but i still thought they looked good, i took your advice and added some caro syrup and it helped so much, they might not look like the one in the wilton book, but then again i haven't seen any on either site that perfect, photo shop lol, thanks for all your help. i knew someday i'd get it. i hate giving up.

a warm thanks to all of you

Diane

We want pics

Post some pictures, I remember when I finally "Got It" I wanted to show everyone.

ok i have to take back the part about never seeing one like in the book i was going through the gallery, but i am very happy mine are coming out good they can only get better right, thanks all i'll post a pic soon