Calling All Parents...punishment Issues...

Lounge By Trixyinaz Updated 9 Jul 2009 , 1:34am by mrspriss0912

Trixyinaz Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 1:20am
post #1 of 41

Our 5 year old DD has been lying. I just don't know what to beleive sometimes. Most of the time it's minor stuff. She knows when she does something wrong and if we find out about it and we ask her, she flat out lies and keeps it up until we pry it out of her.

Earlier this week she lied about brushing her teeth. When I felt her brush and noticed it was dry and confonted her, she went on to say that she had bushed them but dried her toothbrush. Not 5 minutes later she confessed. I told her the next time she lied, I was taking away our Chicago vacation in August. We were flying out there to meet my husband who was driving up there earlier in the week for a meeting.

Well today, our neighbor said she came over to their house at like 8:15 am yesterday. My mouth dropped. The neighbor (a grown adult) lies so much herself that I don't believe what she says half the time anyway. Plus, I was up with DD yesterday and didn't remember us going out in the morning and DD knows that she is NOT allowed outside without DH or me. Then I realized that I had dozed off on the couch after she ate breakfast. So I asked her if she went outside. At first she lied, then told me she took the dog (we were dog sitting) out to the bathroom but only stayed in our front yard but swore she never went over to XYZ's house. Then a few minutes later, I asked her again if she went to "XYZ's" house and knocked on the door. She said no. She was very adamant about it so I was starting to believe her, but it just felt like something from the story was missing. Then a little later, when questioned again, she said all she did was take the dog out to pee and then she watered my flowers (new to the story) and came right back in. Then when questioned again, she said she took the dog out to pee, watered my flowers and saw XYZ in the back yard gardening so she walked over there so they could pet the dog (new to the story). Then when questioned again...the story changed antoher time. Needless to say, she finally fessed up after about an hour drilling her and said she did actually go over to the friends house, knocked on the door, rang the doorbell and when no one answered went around back to see if they were back there and when no one was there, she came back home with the dog. [sigh]

She kept saying she didn't want Chicago taken away, and trust me, neither did I. I told her to go to her room so that DH and I could talk. We agreed that we had to follow through on what we told her. I called her back down and we broke the news to her. She sobbed and sobbed. I feel horrible, but I don't know what else to do to make her understand that she can't lie.

Now the leaving the house without one of us is weighing on us heavily. We are more concerned about this than the lying right now. She's never ever done that before, but she's never had a need to go out without one of us before. Yesterday, she did. We had my bosses dog and were watching it. She's always wanted a puppy and was so excited to have one here. All she wanted to do was take this dog for a walk, which we did several times. We've had dozens of conversations with her about never going out without one of us and never opening the door if someone knocks. She's always been really good about that. I'm kicking myself for dozing off and kicking myself for not hearing the garage door open. If I hadn't fallen back to sleep, she never would have snuck out of the house and took the dog out, which is all she wanted to do (and show it off to her friends). Thank God nothing happened to her, but we feel she needs to be punished for this action as well.

She goes on field trips through school and we were going to take the 2 away that are scheduled for this week, but DH said it would be better to take away playtime outside this week and make her read or write in her journal and go to bed by 7 pm. Are we handling this correctly? Is there a better way to handle the lying and stop it for good?

Thanks and sorry for the lenghty post!

40 replies
Deb_ Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 1:32am
post #2 of 41

Hi Vicki,

Yes, I think you're handling the punishment thing the right way. If you threaten to take something away then it's imperative you follow through with it.

I agree the issue of her leaving your house alone is bothering me more then the lie right now. She needs to understand how serious an issue this is........the danger of leaving your home alone.

I think if you continue to follow through with the punishments she'll eventually "get it", and stop lying. Just be sure she understands the consequences if she lies or leaves your house again.

Good luck!

Trixyinaz Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 1:43am
post #3 of 41

Thanks Kelly! I just feel like a failure right now. Why would DD leave the house alone after all the talks we've had? Everytime I think about it, I get knots in my stomach. We talk about the danger issues all the time and never once has she ever done that. The only thing I can think of is she felt safe with the dog with her. She had a major talking to tonight about leaving the house.

We have gotten better at following through. I told her the next time she lies, she will not get a dog (she's been wanting one and we are considering it. Now I have to come up with a "if you ever leave the house again without us, XYZ will happen." I just don't know what that would be. I am so worried now and so is DH.

Doug Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 2:17am
post #4 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixyinaz

Thanks Kelly! I just feel like a failure right now. Why would DD leave the house alone after all the talks we've had? Everytime I think about it, I get knots in my stomach. We talk about the danger issues all the time and never once has she ever done that. The only thing I can think of is she felt safe with the dog with her. She had a major talking to tonight about leaving the house.

We have gotten better at following through. I told her the next time she lies, she will not get a dog (she's been wanting one and we are considering it. Now I have to come up with a "if you ever leave the house again without us, XYZ will happen." I just don't know what that would be. I am so worried now and so is DH.




You are NOT a failure -- you've just run up against the same problem every parent has run into since parents first came to be (See both story of Adam & Eve and Cain & Able) why oh why do parents expect their little "darlings" to end up ever so perfect after all their hard work? -- Tain't going to happen! Kids are Kids.

yes - did exactly right. say what you mean, mean what you say. make no idle threats.

---
be careful on making the threats.

make her EARN the dog. -- instead of NEVER getting a dog -- will get one when she can be TRUSTED..

trusted not to lie. (how do I know you're not lying about wanting a dog?)

trusted not to go outside or only to where she is supposed to be... (I'm just going to have to come with you. No you can't go out to play, I have to be with you. No, you can't walk the dog, I have to come with you.)

trusted to care for it (this is the really hard one!)

---

as for lying --- this is just the START, just wait for the teen years.

since we can't use my mom's method anymore (wash mouth out with soap or worse: a TBS of pure horseradish! -- it never killed a kid -- but boy it DID make an impression -- only took 2 or 3 times and you knew to tell the truth!) ---

follow through and remind at every opportunity. (read story "Boy Who Cried Wolf" maybe?)

my niece stayed with me the summer she was 12. Had tickets to see a show one night. went to PizzaHut and ordered. Pizza came and suddenly she was "sick" -- so off to the bathroom she went.

I waited and waited and waited and waited......and...... finally went to see what gave. There she was OUTSIDE the bathroom and hadn't even used it yet. HMMMM......ok, took her back to table, paid the bill and left and went back home NOT to the show. She was bawling.

My comment: Either you're really sick and need to go to bed so you'll be better for the big day we have planned for tomorrow or you're lying and need to be punished. Either way, we're going home. OH, and the money I spent on those tickets for tonight?? You wasted it -- just wait, later this summer you're going to want to do something and you won't get to because you wasted the money tonight and I want have it then.

I waited about 2 weeks and "gotcha!" -- she learned as evidenced by her advice to her sister who came the next summer was: just do what uncle doug tells you to cause you can't win against him and don't lie!


as for the running away -- grounding is good. Loss of privilege is good too. This is very serious -- in teens it could become the sneaking out of the house and going who knows where (along w/ lies as cover up).

Is there something you've allowed her to do by herself or generally unaccompanied? then it's gone for now.

MnSnow Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 2:39am
post #5 of 41

Ok I have to say something here. I have raised 6 children and I have 15 grandchildren, so I know a little something about kids and discpline icon_wink.gif

Punsihment must fit the crime. It's known as natural and logical consequences. How does lying relate to the planned trip to see her Dad? I am confused to that relation. She lied about going outside and going to the neighbors house. The punishment nees to fit THAT. I would give the consequence that fits lying, going outside without permission but never use the trip to see her Dad as a consequence. However, that is what was used at the time and must be followed up on.

I have to agree with your Hubby about the no outside time for violating the rule about being outside alone. It is a really scary situation for her to realize.

Uncle Doug is correct too. Make the punishment fit the crime and stick to it.
She is only 5 and has much to learn but with consistancy she will know what to expect for whatever she decides to do. Try and help her understand that whatever she chooses has lasting effects.

Trixyinaz Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 3:05am
post #6 of 41

Doug - thanks! I appreciate you taking the time to answer my post. I dread the teen years. I love your neice's story. I am sure she learned her lesson and by the sounds of it, was teaching that lesson she learned to your other neice. Gotta love that! I really like how you have turned this around...making her earn the trust back. I'll have another chat with her tomorrow and re-word it..."When you can prove to me that you can be trusted by telling the truth, we'll talk about getting a dog.", etc.

No, DD has never been allowed to go outside unaccompanied. Our rule is if we can't go out, then neither can she. And, we always walk out together. She's not allowed to go out before us.

MnSnow - oh, I think you have misunderstood what we took away. We took away her vacation --- not going to see her dad. DH and I are married and we live together. He has to be in Chicago in August for a few days, but I can't go when he does b/c I have a wedding cake order so DD and I were going to fly out there and spend Sunday and Monday in Chicago and do Navy Pier, etc. and drive back with DH on Tuesday. Not a huge vacation, but something to get away for a few days. After her last lie, she was given a consequence. Lie again and we won't be going to Chicago for vacation - we'll stay home.

I see what you are saying about having it fit the crime. But, when she lies about silly things like brushing her teeth and I find out she didn't brush her teeth (she made up a story to cover up her lie), what would fit that?

MnSnow Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 3:27am
post #7 of 41

Then she would loose the trust of being alone when she brushed her teeth. I would stand there and make sure it was done and done properly.

5 year olds love to feel like a big kid and have the ability to be independent. By standing there while teeth are being brushed, takes some of that away, but can be explained that while she may be getting bigger, lying is not a big persons action. Lying violates trust, therefore until the lying stops there will be minimal trust.

I'm sorry I didn't understand the vacation thing. Same purpose then. I can't see how it relates together. Lying is not ok under any circumstances and it does need to be handled.

When my kids were younger, they knew if they were caught lying the punishment would be more harsh and I stuck to it. It didn't take much and they didn't lie. As teens, they didn't tell me everything either lol. I probably really didn't want to know either icon_smile.gif

Doug Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 3:56am
post #8 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixyinaz

No, DD has never been allowed to go outside unaccompanied. Our rule is if we can't go out, then neither can she. And, we always walk out together. She's not allowed to go out before us.




and there in may lie part of the problem. she saw her chance to be independent and took it!

she needs controlled, planned opportunities to learn to be trusted by to be outside without you.

the modern paranoia of a rapist/sex fiend/molester/kidnapper waiting in every shadow, behind every bush, in every car is absurd. A child can be OVERprotected too.

put a sandbox (ONLY if -- no loose cats or fire ants in area) or similar in backyard (fenced of course, with lock on gate!) and let her earn trust by being out there alone.

Then as gets older (starting at 6 or so) add "front yard" tasks -- take this bag of garbage to the curb, water the flowers/bushes in front, take this to (or go get this from) Ms. X next door (who has been phoned ahead of time and knows to expect her).

Then come "across the street" tasks. Then "down the block." Then ....
the circle slowly widens.

And don't forget playing with neighborhood kids as a way to learn and earn trust. (you may go to X's house to play for y hours--and phone the parent to arrange same)

By 6 I was allowed to go the whole block down to the little park in the summer -- but ONLY on the mornings there was summer camp there and only for summer camp there. By 7 rode bike up and down and around two blocks (often leaving trail of blood from skinned knees or some other new injury!) By eight was allowed to go 5 whole blocks away to the corner store to get "stuff" for mom and piece of candy for me.

So, she wants to show off the dog -- sorry not this time -- blew it kid. But the next time -- ok, but you have to watch the first few times -- then have a "plan" for the next times (you may go here, here and here -- and don't forget I can call them! -- party lines made this SO much easier!)

Teaching trust also means letting go, not hovering. As a teacher of 30+ years experience I've seen what to much hovering can do to a student -- they grow up afraid to try, fearful of venturing out, always playing it safe, unwilling to take a risk. The ones who have learned and earned trust and thereby gained a sense of disciplined self-directed independence are the most successful, the most creative, the most likely to get ahead.

It's the dilemma I face every time I do a show (i direct theatre) with students. Do I watch them like hawks while they build the set, hand the lights, etc. and make sure it is done "just so" or do I give them direction as to what needs to be done and then leave them to figure it out. The best shows with the happiest campers have always been the ones where I let go --- a VERY hard lesson for me to learn due to my perfectionist, OCD tendencies when directing. It took me a LONG while but I finely did learn to let go and watch them soar to heights that left me in awe at all they had accomplished.

the paradox of being parent or teacher or coach....

holding tight enough to protect, loose enough to allow growth and self exploration and

finally knowing when to let go.

BeeBoos-8599_ Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 4:49am
post #9 of 41

Boy Oh Boy, did I need to see this post (i think a hand from above was guiding me). I feel for you so much but more becasue I can totally relate to your issue. I to have a 5 year old DD and I am having major issues with her. For the problem you are having I would say that you have recieved some very good advice about making the punishment match the crime and allways following through. I am known for using "outside of the box" parenting techniques. When my oldest (the one I am having issues with) was 3 she was lying all of the time. We had been watching the Veggie Tale called Larry Boy and the big fib from outer space. if you have not seen it a little boy tells a small fib and a small alien is there to represent it. As he tells more lies the alien grows into a huge monster lie and takes him hostage ontop of a water tower. Well I told DD that if she continued to lie she would have to go live in a water tower with "king fib" (we live in the country so water towers are everywhere). She kept it up so one day I packed a bag for her and took her to the water tower and dropped her off. She was very cocky thinking that this was going to be a big adventure. Well, I never let her out of my sight and began to drive away. She went nuts and started yelling and crying. I had to call the king fib on my cell phone (daddy) and ask if she could come home with me. Well he told her if she never lied again she could stay with us. She never lied again. My mother in law wants my parenting license taken away for that one.

Now if you would be willing to listen to another frustrated mom I can use some advise myself. What do you do with a child who argues and debates EVERY single thing you say to her or ask her to do? I don't budge when I give her direction. I allways look her in the eye and tell her what I need from her and without fail she will plant her feet and inform me why she does not want to do it or what she wants to do first. I am totally exhausted at the end of a 3 day holiday weekend that was full of arguments from her. I am so tired of the attitude and i am out of ideas on how to handle this little person. I feel like I want to explode when she starts. She is a very strong willed child but all of the books out there just do not seem to hav an answer for me. I DO love her but I really do not like her lately.

BeeBoos-8599_ Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 4:50am
post #10 of 41

Boy Oh Boy, did I need to see this post (i think a hand from above was guiding me). I feel for you so much but more becasue I can totally relate to your issue. I to have a 5 year old DD and I am having major issues with her. For the problem you are having I would say that you have recieved some very good advice about making the punishment match the crime and allways following through. I am known for using "outside of the box" parenting techniques. When my oldest (the one I am having issues with) was 3 she was lying all of the time. We had been watching the Veggie Tale called Larry Boy and the big fib from outer space. if you have not seen it a little boy tells a small fib and a small alien is there to represent it. As he tells more lies the alien grows into a huge monster lie and takes him hostage ontop of a water tower. Well I told DD that if she continued to lie she would have to go live in a water tower with "king fib" (we live in the country so water towers are everywhere). She kept it up so one day I packed a bag for her and took her to the water tower and dropped her off. She was very cocky thinking that this was going to be a big adventure. Well, I never let her out of my sight and began to drive away. She went nuts and started yelling and crying. I had to call the king fib on my cell phone (daddy) and ask if she could come home with me. Well he told her if she never lied again she could stay with us. She never lied again. My mother in law wants my parenting license taken away for that one.

Now if you would be willing to listen to another frustrated mom I can use some advise myself. What do you do with a child who argues and debates EVERY single thing you say to her or ask her to do? I don't budge when I give her direction. I allways look her in the eye and tell her what I need from her and without fail she will plant her feet and inform me why she does not want to do it or what she wants to do first. I am totally exhausted at the end of a 3 day holiday weekend that was full of arguments from her. I am so tired of the attitude and i am out of ideas on how to handle this little person. I feel like I want to explode when she starts. She is a very strong willed child but all of the books out there just do not seem to hav an answer for me. I DO love her but I really do not like her lately.

glendaleAZ Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 4:51am
post #11 of 41

My daughter is now 16 and has turned out to be the most loving and caring young lady any mother could hope for. BUT, as a child I would have never referred to her as a darling anything, let alone a darling daughter. It was more like a holy terror stuck in a little girls body.

From the moment I brought her home from the hospital that girl showed such talent bad talent. As an infant she never seemed to understand that I had other things to do than hold her all day long. Needless to say she didnt like it when I put her down, but it wasnt more than a few minutes before she would stop crying and become involved with her hands or feet. Now, this is a true story. At one month old, she would be playing happily in her swing or crib, but the minute she heard someone unlocking the front door, she would start screaming at the top of her lungs like she was being tortured. Either my ex-husband or mom would walk into the room and give me a look that said what did you do to that baby. I would hold up my hands with a look that said Im way over here how could I have done anything. It was several months before they realized that she was manipulating them to get what she wanted, which was to be held.

As she got older life between us was a constant battle of wills. I tried time out (totally didnt work), because she would just sit there until her time was up, and then go find something else to get into, and then be right back in the time out chair. In kindergarten she was sent to the principles office three times for not coming in from recess. The teacher said they would be yelling at her to come in, but she would tell them no because she wasnt done playing. The principle would always have to go out and get her. (I think that was when my left eye started its twitching thing)

There was a short span where she was pretty good, not to many battles. I think it was 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. But, when fifth grade came around it was way worse than before.

I tried everything. I tried to reason with her (she didnt listen), took her allowance away (didnt care) grounding her to the house (didnt care even more), grounded he to her room (still didnt care).

Then, I decided to start removing things from her bedroom. Every time she did something bad, got a bad grade on a paper, or when she sassed back, I would removed one favorite thing from her room and place it in the garage. If she was good, I would bring the item back in to her room. But, when she was bad again, all her toys went to the garage. And again, if she was good toys would come back into her room, but only a few at a time. At one point her; TV, VCR, Stereo and music, favorite cloths, jewelry, toys, cosmic books, posters, favorite shoes were all in the garage, because she was being so stubborn. It was when she was left with only her bed and reading books that she saw the light and started being good again to get all her stuff back in her room. I was excited the process was working, slowly, but I could see that she was getting it.

But, as they say nothing last forever. I think it was when she was in 8th or 9th grade and she started acting up again, like talking back and slamming her bedroom door when she didnt get her way. Well I started the same process all over again. At one point all her stuff was back in the garage. Then, one day she slammed her door because she was mad at me over something, well the next day my DD came home to find her bedroom without a door (I exiled it to the garage) Man did that do the trick. Soon after, all her things were back in her bedroom including her bedroom door (of course that was the last thing to be returned).

Im sorry that this is long, but I guess what I trying to say is that sometimes there is no quick fix. And even at your DD age I think that removing things from her room may just get the point across, without having to do anything really drastic. One thing, if you say something is going to the garage you need to move it there, or she will not take you seriously. In regards to her going outside, I dont think I would trust her on that one. Maybe you should put some of those chain locks on all the doors, way up high, so she cant reach them without your help.

maryjsgirl Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 5:05am
post #12 of 41

Instead of punishing her for lying in the future I think you should think about rewarding her for telling the truth.

I find that positive reinforcement works better than punishment for youngsters.

I would set up some kind of reward system for good behavior. Like a daily chart and she can get stickers for good behavior. If lying is a huge issue even a "truth chart" where she gets stickers for telling the truth. Even if its telling the truth about doing something bad, lol. Give her a reward for so many stickers received. Maybe she could even work to get her trip back.

Doug Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 10:38am
post #13 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by glendaleAZ

My daughter is now 16 and has turned out to be the most loving and caring young lady any mother could hope for. so she cant reach them without your help.




standing ovation!!!! good simple creative effective parenting. (tho' and what would have happened if even the bed had to go too!?) many lessons to be learned from you!

-----

Quote:
Originally Posted by maryjsgirl

Instead of punishing her for lying in the future I think you should think about rewarding her for telling the truth. ...

Even if its telling the truth about doing something bad, lol. Give her a reward for so many stickers received. Maybe she could even work to get her trip back.




the two wrongs don't make a right lesson!

and of course still punish separately for the "bad" thing that was done

Trixyinaz Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 10:46am
post #14 of 41

Thanks everyone. When this whole thing blew up yesterday, I gave DD every opportunity to tell the trutch. I had even said to her over and over again, "I need to trust you...did you go outside without me to XYZ's house. If you tell me the truth, we will still be able to go to Chicago." So I'm kinda hesitant in letting her earn her trip back. She had plenty of opportunities to keep that trip. Even afterwards, she was still trying to get out of her lie by saying she didn't understand what I was asking. Then she said, "I was afraid if I told the truth we wouldn't be able to go to Chicago." DUH! I kept saying that we would go to Chicago even if she told me she had gone over to the neighbor's house, but that all she had to do was tell me the truth. I even asked her why she thought Ms. XYZ would tell me this. She started crying and said, "Ms. XYZ is lying, I never went to her house." She is very smart and thinks she can outsmart us. Drives us BATTY!

Bob, I wish he had a fenced in yard, but we don't. We have no sidewalks either in our neighborhood. And, I'm sorry. At this age neither my husband or I am comfortable with letting her outside by herself. There was a little 5 yo girl that was taken from outside her house just a few miles from us. Found dead a week later...alledgedly taken by someone she knows (I haven't seen whether this person was charged yet or not). It's not the strangers per se. It can be someone we know and that's what is scary. She is a very independent little girl and we do allow her lots of freedom. We'll let her run to the car and get something out of it, but we are usually in the living room and can see her (she doesn't know we are watching). If the neighbors are out and she wants to go out, we will let her go without us. But, if no one is out, we are not comfortable letting her go out alone without an adult being out there with her.

AACK - ran out of time. I wanted to answer Bees Boos. I need to get ready for work and will come back during lunch. Thanks again!

SecretAgentCakeBaker Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 12:28pm
post #15 of 41

Put alarms on all of your outside doors in case you doze again. You can purchase them at a home store, like Home Depot. They just stick on. Put them up high. They have a little switch so you can turn them off if you do want to open the door, just don't forget to switch it back on when you come back inside.

Texas_Rose Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 12:51pm
post #16 of 41

Trixy, I think you're completely right that she shouldn't be allowed outside alone. My kids aren't allowed out without us. We live across the street from the school and my 7 year old isn't allowed to walk to school without one of us. I know other parents who let their kids play outside all day long and I've seen those parents searching frantically for the kids when they forget to come home at dusk...so far everyone's always made it home so those irresponsible parents consider this to be a safe area.

Sometimes a little dose of reality is necessary to keep our kids safe. I think you should show your daughter a photo of the little girl who was kidnapped near you, and tell her, "This little girl went outside without her mommy and daddy and a bad person took her away and killed her." It sounds harsh...but my kids watch the news with me every day, and part of why we do that is so that they can see what has happened to other kids, and then we talk about how they can stay safe (for example, don't go in the pool without a parent, don't take your seat belt off when the car is moving, don't talk to strangers, etc...). Sometimes we practice too about what they would do in different situations.

Both of my kids have lied to me before. I think all kids try it a couple of times. My oldest will back down when confronted, but my 3 year old never does. She sticks to her story until the bitter end...which is usually the part where I send her to her room until she is ready to tell the truth. I won't keep her in there during mealtimes but she's spent a few hours in her room before because she wasn't ready to tell the truth yet.

JodieF Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 2:21pm
post #17 of 41

Kids lie....period.....they don't want to get in trouble, so they lie. I had one of mine say they hadn't chopped off their hair when standing at the sink with scissors in hand, hair all over the floor. It doesn't mean they're gonna end up in jail. She's normal!
Now, I'm not saying she's supposed to get away with it. Kids need to learn! The punishment does need to fit the crime. When I knew my kids weren't brushing their teeth, I simply said that NOT brushing teeth wasn't an option, so I would stand and watch. After a week or so, I'd tell them I was trusting them to do it themselves, but I'd be checking. Smelling breath is a lot more reliable than checking a toothbrush. It took us longer to get out of the house, so they'd lose some playtime because they choose not to brush their teeth.
I'm sorry, but it's crazy to keep trying to force her to confess. You have her backed into a corner and she's going to lie through her teeth. When you know she's told a lie, why not just say "I see you don't feel like you can tell me the truth. Right now you need to go to your room and think about it while I decide how to handle this.". Trying to force her to admit a lie is just going to teach her to lie better!
There is nothing wrong with saying "I'm sorry. I was very upset with you when I said you couldn't have the trip with Daddy. I said that because I was very frustrated. But, that's too much punishment for telling the lie. So, you get to go on the trip, but instead, because you lied to me, you're not going to get to go on the playdate with *****. Mommys can be wrong too." I told my kids I reacted in anger many times and adjusted the consequences I had laid out.
I also totally agree with the positive reinforcement. It always works better than punishment!

Jodie

cmp24 Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 4:00pm
post #18 of 41

Ok......Wow......I too was lead to this thread by a hand...........I'm a single mom of 3 boys. Ages 16, 11, and 10. My 11 and 10 yr old lie all the time, but really more so my 10 year old. I don't put up with it at all.

Not only are they not allowed out side to play with there friends, if we have beach going time, it's taken away, they have to write sentences full paper front and back. If one word is misspelled, left out of the sentence, or i can't read it. the entire page is to be redone. they are also grounded from any and all game systems and the computer. I do not tolerate it at all. I'm very close with there teachers at school. If they were caught lying at school the teacher lets me know, and i take care of it at home. All of the above is done at 1 time. Pretty much all they can do is sit around and watch tv, and not cartoons.

I've been around children that have no disclipine in there lives. I refuse to let my kids hang around any of those children. That is why I don't hang out with my best friend anymore, is because of her kids attitudes. They have no idea what discclipine is. They tell me i'm mean when she calls me and asks us to go to the beach, and i tell her mine are grounded. She gives in to her kids to keep them quiet. that does not teach the kids anything but how to run over mom, and run the house.


They have certain kids they can play with in the neighborhood, if they are caught playing with one they are not suppose to, there grounded.......my kids will know right from wrong. I've been told by other parents that I'm way to strict. I've been told by teachers, that I'm doing a great job, because my kids know that if they do something wrong at school. they are in trouble when they get home too.

I just wish the laws were not as strict as they were back when we were growing up. We turned out just fine if you ask me.

maryjsgirl Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 6:49pm
post #19 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas_Rose

Trixy, I think you're completely right that she shouldn't be allowed outside alone. My kids aren't allowed out without us. We live across the street from the school and my 7 year old isn't allowed to walk to school without one of us. I know other parents who let their kids play outside all day long and I've seen those parents searching frantically for the kids when they forget to come home at dusk...so far everyone's always made it home so those irresponsible parents consider this to be a safe area.

Sometimes a little dose of reality is necessary to keep our kids safe. I think you should show your daughter a photo of the little girl who was kidnapped near you, and tell her, "This little girl went outside without her mommy and daddy and a bad person took her away and killed her." It sounds harsh...but my kids watch the news with me every day, and part of why we do that is so that they can see what has happened to other kids, and then we talk about how they can stay safe (for example, don't go in the pool without a parent, don't take your seat belt off when the car is moving, don't talk to strangers, etc...). Sometimes we practice too about what they would do in different situations.

Both of my kids have lied to me before. I think all kids try it a couple of times. My oldest will back down when confronted, but my 3 year old never does. She sticks to her story until the bitter end...which is usually the part where I send her to her room until she is ready to tell the truth. I won't keep her in there during mealtimes but she's spent a few hours in her room before because she wasn't ready to tell the truth yet.




I am also overprotective and do not let my kids out alone. My son who is going into the seventh grade was just allowed freedom to roam the neighborhood with friends.

I am with you on the drowning also. My mom purchased a lake home last year and my kids stay in life jackets regardless if they can swim or not.

But, do you also scare them into believing all of your family members might molest them? That all your family friends could be child predators? What about your religious leader? Most kids aren't sexually molested or abused by the lurking stranger behind the bush. Almost all kids are violated by someone they are related to or trust.

Let me tell you a little story about my friend who also let her children watch the news. She came to me for advice one day, because like her I have children from a racially mixed marriage. Her children are half black, but besides their father was never around anyone non-whites. Well she noticed that her oldest daughter was terrified of black people. How horrible for a child who is essentially seen as black to be terrified of black people. The first thing that came to my mind was the TELEVISION. Exactly what I thought she was allowing her children to watch the news every night. They live near Gary Indiana (and Chicago), which if you know anything about it you'd know it has had it's place as "murder capital", "crime capital" etc of the US. So daily her daughter watched horrible crimes on the tv and being that Gary is predominately black the perp was almost always a black man. To her black people turned into the boogeyman thanks to the good ol' news. And I won't get into the whole issue of institutionalized racism/classism and the news media and crime reporting, etc. But, I think a lot of things children "learn" from the news is of a great disservice to them.

7yyrt Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 6:57pm
post #20 of 41

Why can you not wash mouths out with soap?
It's quite easy; wet the washcloth, get a nice suds going, scrub out mouth.

Works very well. Soaps tastes awful.

Trixyinaz Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 8:05pm
post #21 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeBoos-8599_

Now if you would be willing to listen to another frustrated mom I can use some advise myself. What do you do with a child who argues and debates EVERY single thing you say to her or ask her to do? I don't budge when I give her direction. I allways look her in the eye and tell her what I need from her and without fail she will plant her feet and inform me why she does not want to do it or what she wants to do first. I am totally exhausted at the end of a 3 day holiday weekend that was full of arguments from her. I am so tired of the attitude and i am out of ideas on how to handle this little person. I feel like I want to explode when she starts. She is a very strong willed child but all of the books out there just do not seem to hav an answer for me. I DO love her but I really do not like her lately.




That was a great story Bee. Didn't a mother just recently get arrested for doing that in Jersey or NY? I think I saw it on Dr. Phil. Not worth the risk for me, but I did do that to my nephew once about 25 years ago.

As for arguing, I'm no help. DD is the same way. Very strong willed! It's equally as frustrating as the lying! And a Miss Know it All to boot! DH is the one who usually handles the "arguing" or the "Know it all" issues. He's really good with that. I'll ask him and see what he says.

I'm still at work, but have lots of responses to add. I'll try to get back tonight otherwise it will be tomorrow.

jammjenks Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 9:43pm
post #22 of 41

Y'all are going to hate me for this, but my daughters are 5 and 7 and we spank at our house. I know it can be a hot topic, but it works for us. I've never used anything except my hand on their butt, but it sure gets their attention.

Texas_Rose Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 10:01pm
post #23 of 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by jammjenks

Y'all are going to hate me for this, but my daughters are 5 and 7 and we spank at our house. I know it can be a hot topic, but it works for us. I've never used anything except my hand on their butt, but it sure gets their attention.




I do that sometimes too...my oldest goes through phases where her brain hasn't grown to catch up with her body and there's no point trying to communicate with the brain when we want the body to quit running out into the street, wading in the duck pond, mooning the neighbors, etc...

My younger daughter can be disciplined with just words...she can't stand for anyone to be unhappy with her. She also doesn't grow and her butt is the size of two jumbo cupcakes, so we don't spank her often.

ziggytarheel Posted 6 Jul 2009 , 11:50pm
post #24 of 41

I think it is safe to say that all do lie sometimes. If you talk to seasoned elementary school teachers, they will relate that parents often say to them, "My Johnny will do many things, but he will never lie." I'm led to believe that parents tend to be a bit naive about their own children sometimes.

My kids are grown, so I'll share some principles that served us well:

Punishment, whenever possible, should punish the child and not the parent. Don't take away things that are important to their growth and development. Take away other things that are meaningful to them.

Clearly defined rules with a clearly defined consequence take away the possibility of many battles.

It takes two to argue. There is no rule that you have to have the last word. The "winner" is not the one who speaks last. icon_smile.gif Walk away so as to not escalate.

Don't be inflammatory, be reasonable.

And my opinion is to not corner a child in such a way that they feel threatened and are more prone to give an improper response.

One of my children was extremely well-behaved 98% of the time. Remarkably so. But when she did something wrong, it was usually a doozy. And I was always taken by surprise and unprepared because she was usually so trustworthy. The point is, she was still a child. She liked pleasing me, but she was still inquisitive and independent. Two of her episodes of disobedience involved leaving the house...once when she was 3, going to a neighbors early in the morning before my normal rise and shine time. The second involved her walking in her pajamas, several blocks away, to a convenience store, at age 4, because she figured she knew the way and had found some change!

Good kids, not so good kids, and everyone in between will do things that shock you. You just have to figure out AHEAD OF TIME the calm and reasoned response that helps you attain the goal you have. And, you have to talk about the issues when you aren't emotional and she isn't either.

That's my best advice, for what ever you take its worth to be!

AverageMom Posted 7 Jul 2009 , 12:39am
post #25 of 41

I think you are on the right track by following through on your punishment. You said she would miss the trip, she should miss the trip!
My only issue....please, please, PLEASE don't use reading and journal writing as a punishment! You want her to associate those with pleasure and choice!!

BeeBoos-8599_ Posted 7 Jul 2009 , 1:25am
post #26 of 41

Ziggy (or anyone who wants to respond)
Ok, I know that it takes 2 to argue but here is just one example of what happened today and you can tell me what you would have done.

After a long weekend of having to tell dd over and over to do things and getting balked at for every little thing i told both girls that i was only going to ask them to do things 1 time and that I would not accept any arguing about whatever direction I had given. Just one example of what took place follows.

The girls had taken a bath and needed thier hair dried before going to be.
my youngest came in, got it done, asked if she could watch her shows before bed and when told no because it was bed time responded OK , stood and got her hair dried and went to her room to wait for me and her sister.

DD (the stubborn one) comes in and throws herself on my bed.
Mom- Emma(DD) come get your hair dried
DD- When I am done (standing on her head looking at herself in mirror)
Mom- I asked you to come get your hair dried. I have things I have to do and I am not going to argue with you or wait. Now get over here.
DD- UUHHHHGGG OK! Stomps over and stands infront of me.
Mom- Stop the moaning and dont start with the smart tone. (starts to dry hair)
DD- When I am done can I watch my shows?
Mom- No because it is bed time when I am done.
DD- But I want to watch Scooby
Mom- No. It is bed time
DD- Can you turn it on so I can see if it is on?
Mom- Emma, I told you it is bed time and you are not going to watch your shows period.
DD- FINE! Just take the t.v.'s out of the house and all of my stuff and I will just live naked with nothing to do.
Mom- Dont puch your luck or I just may do that.

So, In my opinion this was debating and I know that I should not debate something with her but at what point should the conversation have been ended? Do I just stop responding to her? I really do want some help with this. I hope I am not sounding flip about it all.

BeeBoos-8599_ Posted 7 Jul 2009 , 1:28am
post #27 of 41

Ziggy (or anyone who wants to respond)
Ok, I know that it takes 2 to argue but here is just one example of what happened today and you can tell me what you would have done.

After a long weekend of having to tell dd over and over to do things and getting balked at for every little thing i told both girls that i was only going to ask them to do things 1 time and that I would not accept any arguing about whatever direction I had given. Just one example of what took place follows.

The girls had taken a bath and needed thier hair dried before going to be.
my youngest came in, got it done, asked if she could watch her shows before bed and when told no because it was bed time responded OK , stood and got her hair dried and went to her room to wait for me and her sister.

DD (the stubborn one) comes in and throws herself on my bed.
Mom- Emma(DD) come get your hair dried
DD- When I am done (standing on her head looking at herself in mirror)
Mom- I asked you to come get your hair dried. I have things I have to do and I am not going to argue with you or wait. Now get over here.
DD- UUHHHHGGG OK! Stomps over and stands infront of me.
Mom- Stop the moaning and dont start with the smart tone. (starts to dry hair)
DD- When I am done can I watch my shows?
Mom- No because it is bed time when I am done.
DD- But I want to watch Scooby
Mom- No. It is bed time
DD- Can you turn it on so I can see if it is on?
Mom- Emma, I told you it is bed time and you are not going to watch your shows period.
DD- FINE! Just take the t.v.'s out of the house and all of my stuff and I will just live naked with nothing to do.
Mom- Dont puch your luck or I just may do that.

So, In my opinion this was debating and I know that I should not debate something with her but at what point should the conversation have been ended? Do I just stop responding to her? I really do want some help with this. I hope I am not sounding flip about it all.

shelbur10 Posted 7 Jul 2009 , 1:47am
post #28 of 41

My 9 yo DD is a master at debate, attitude and argument. We went through a spell of conversations very similar to your example, Bees. It was becoming miserable for all of us. Now, if she asks a question and I answer it, that's the end of the conversation.
DD - Can I stay up late?
Mom - No, normal bedtime tonight, you need your rest.
DD - But whyyyyy, it's summer, I don't have to go to school...blah blah
Mom - I answered your question, I'm not discussing it. If you can't stop whining, you can go to your room.

It's worked wonders. She will keep trying to argue sometimes, but I refuse to keep saying no. I say it once and that's it. She's finally catching on. I had to start doing this when she let slip one day that she whines because if she whines enough, she will get her way. I admit, I had a few times of giving in just to stop the noise, and that was all it took for her to start a new habit.

KitchenKat Posted 7 Jul 2009 , 1:58am
post #29 of 41

I'm just been skimming over the replies and I totally agree with making the "punishment" fit the "crime". I don't think of it as punishment though and I never tell my children they will be "punished" for something that they've done. Instead I explain that every action has a natural consequence and so I try to work out the natural consequence of their behaviour. This way discipline is not a negative value but a positive reinforcement.

I want to share something I learned from a parenting workshop at my children's school. At your daughter's age (5 right?), lying is not a malicious, premeditated behavior. Developmentally children at this age make impulsive decisions. When a decision turns out "wrong" and they expect to be in trouble, their wish to have not done it or to have something else becomes their reality. In other words when they fib it is because they wish so much that is what they had really done that they believe it as the truth. That's why some children adamantly refuse to admit they are lying. The "lie" has become their truth. They don't see that they are lying. Add to this with a 5-year old's tendency to push borders and stubbornness as a way of asserting his independence and individuality.

The counselors told us not to take the lie personally, not to name it as a personality trait (you're lying, you're a liar) but not to tolerate the behavior either. Most children hardly ever lie except to correct a mistake or judgement error when facing a fear of punishment. At the workshop we were told that when we catch our children fibbing the worst thing to do is to confront the lie because that only puts the child on the defensive and doesn't really resolve the immediate conflict. Instead we can focus on the behavior that we want to change (e.g. lying about brushing teeth or cleaning up split milk). Talking about lying comes later, once the immediate conflict is resolved and both parent and child are calm enough to talk openly without making value judgements on the child for lying. Several responses she mentioned (which I'm trying to recall without benefit of the handouts that were given out):

1) Acknowledge the fantasy ("I bet you wish you could just stand in front of the sink, smile and then voila! Your teeth would be brushed just like magic!")

2) Create your own safeguards (Instead of asking "have you brushed your teeth", say, "lemme smell your wonderful, fresh clean breath")

3) Go directly to the truth without opening the fib up for discussion. ("I'm very disappointed that you didn't brush your teeth. Let's go in the bathroom and I'll watch you do it.")

4) Remove opportunities for habitual fibbing (if your child always fibs about brushing teeth, accompany him to the bathroom or help him do it.)

We are encouraged to talk about the values of truth telling and honesty and our unconditional love and acceptance of the child when we are no longer feeling emotional about the situation. This doesn't mean you sit the child down and have a heart to heart. They suggest finding teaching moments, like discussing the actions of a character in a book or tv, or while snuggling before bedtime.

I have seen what a difference this technique makes.

Bottomline: this is a developmental phase that children will outgrow, with a little guidance from us.

Oh and this applies to pre-schoolers, not older kids. Teenagers, now that's a whole new ballgame!

4Gifts4Lisa Posted 7 Jul 2009 , 5:05am
post #30 of 41

TheCasualKitchen, you just posted what I was thinking. I taught preschool a hundred years ago, and I very much remember this from my Early Childhood Education classes. I used the info alot, especially after I had my own kids (4 of 'em, ages 3, 6, 12, 16). I got VERY used to saying, "You went to Disneyland last week? (child had not) Oh, I bet you WISH you could go. So do I! What would you do first?" Or, instead of "WHO spilled the milk?" I'd say, "Oops...the milk spilled...grab a rag and clean it up"! I would really watch how I phrased things, and not give them the opportunity to lie.

Let the punishment fit the crime...another big one.

And one last thing I was always careful of...if I am going to punish my kids for lying, then I had better make dang sure that I am not guilty of it myself. Including: "fudging" on my taxes, calling in "sick" if I'm not, telling someone their pants look great when they don't, telling my doctor I am exercising when I am not, telling my husband my new dress costs $10 less than it really did...shall I go on? icon_smile.gif

Also adding...going outside without supervision/permission is a pretty big danger, and of course should be dealt with accordingly. We also installed a chain lock that the little kids can't reach (of course, a chair can always be pulled over, but I am assuming a noise that big would wake me up...I nap, too!)

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