Doesnt anyone consider the caliber of work when pricing?

I see a lot of posts where people are requesting pricing advice. Seems like a lot of the feedback only accounts for the size of the cake, how detailed it is, and how much it costs to make. Although I agree with this advice, I also think its important to consider the caliber of the artist. Just because a cake may be a certain number of pieces, or may have a lot of tiny details does not mean its actually worth what someone else might be able to charge.

Ive seen a lot of cakes on this site that are pretty impressive for home-bakers & hobbyist but just because someone enjoys baking/decorating cakes (and may even do a decent job at it) does not mean they are entitled to charge an arm & a leg for them.

As a hobbyist, I feel very privileged to have access to a great site like this where not only do we get to mingle with the pros but theyre kind enough to give us advice & encourage us to keep on cakin. Ive often wondered what must go through the minds of these truly talented artists when they see mediocre (and in some cases, blatantly shoddy) cakes being passed off as if in the same category as their own amazing cake creations.

Just my thoughts...
~diem

I agree with you but you will find that many on here don't want a critique of their work. Many CC'ers offer pricing with caution simply because there are so many factors involved .... area of the country, competition, the market you're in, whether supplies are bought wholesale or in a grocery store, if the baker even has a walmart close to them (I knwo that sounds odd but believe it or not, walmart isn't conveniently located to everyone! ), etc.

There have been threads in which CC'ers have suggested that the quality of the work didn't merit a particular price range and bluntly all hell broke loose. Either the argument is the baker "didn't ask for a review of the work!" or "what's quality got to do with it?"

It's an egg-shell-walking-tightrope when someone asks for advice. Sometimes we're not sure what advice they REALLY want to hear.

Sometimes people need to be told straight out: "You need to practice and then maybe think about selling" Wish someone told me that way back when. It was so frustrating seeing all these people getting paid pretty good and I was stuck at crap prices. The aluminum foil covered cardboards, bulgy fondant and crooked star tip piping didn't help either.

IndyDebi - it's interesting that you should be the one to reply... You are among the handful of "pros" I truely look up to! So thanks for the response!

I'm fascinated that more people don't feel this way. To me, the quality of the work is the most important part when it comes to pricing... Maybe one day I'll be lucky enough to charge for my cakes. Until then, I'm going to practice and make sure they will be worhty of it when it comes to that!

Thanks for the response!
~diem

I agree with Indydeb, a lot uf people do appreciate critical feedback as this is really the only way to improve one's skills however a lot of people just want to show their work and help give ideas to others. When it comes to pricing- yes in many ways quality merits higher prices, most of us can;t charge what PCB or RBI or other big names can charge because of their reputations. However sometimes location has more to do with it- A hobby baker in NYC could probably get more for a "grocery style" cake than a professional doing custom work in a very rural small town location

This is such an interesting topic, and I have had the same questions. On the one hand, people say to never undercut your local competition, but on the other hand, should you charge the same as your local competition if you are not at the same level they are skill-wise? Pricing is such a hard thing because it's pretty subjective, and it can be so dependent on so many different factors.

I guess my biggest question is how do I determine how much my time is worth as a cake decorator, based on my skill level and quality of work?

Better decorators can definitely charge more than beginners. I think that there are a good number of people on both sides of the issue, though. I've seen plenty of awful decorators who are charging a lot of money, and plenty of people who are very good who seem to have no confidence so they're not charging enough.

Neither one is going to be in business long since you can't underprice and earn enough to make it worth your time (plus you'll be overworked if too many people find out that you're the bargain basement of bakers), and you can't overprice for crappy work and expect anyone to pay you.

If you're running a bakery then you'd have to hire employees, and the more skilled ones would cost more to hire. Assuming that you actually end up paying yourself a wage if you're running your own business, the better you are the more you should be getting paid, right? You have to figure out your own pricing based on your expenses, etc., but your salary should be part of that equation. The better you are, the more you should be able to charge.

The flip side to this argument is: So many people shop based on price. They're willing to buy an "OK" cake if the price is low. With that in mind, if decorators priced based on skill, the average skilled decorator would probably get more business than the highly skilled ones because their "OK" cakes are cheaper. (This isn't at all a slam against Wal-Mart or grocery store decorators, but those cakes are fairly simply decorated, and they sell well because they're relatively inexpensive.)

Also, you also have to factor in taste. Some people are willing to pay more for a cake that's decorated "OK" if it tastes amazing. Personally, I wouldn't pay top dollar for an amazingly decorated cake if the cake itself doesn't taste very good or is dry as a bone.

This is something that pops into my head every time I see the pricing discussions. It also pops into my head every time I see a sloppy cake and realize it was made by someone who makes them for a living.

I really think it's an interesting topic and love to see all the points of view. I also realize its a touchy subject So thanks, everyone, for participating in my discussion!

~diem

a lot of people don't have an eye for what looks good either ....it's amazing what people will buy.

My cakes have flaws (*GASP* "OMG! Did she just say that??" "She's talking about her own cakes." "Oh, phew!!"), and I'm nowhere near the level of expertise as some of my competition around here.

But, I started my business with the idea that the more cakes I do, the better I'll get. I wanted to be legit, out of my home, because I didn't want the HD to shut me down before I could get more experience. And let's face it, those who do it for no profit most likely won't be able to do that many cakes due to the out-of-pocket costs.

That being said, I don't charge as much as my competition. I'm a new business, I don't want to overwhelm myself (a slow, steady climb is perfectly ok with me) and I know I need to work on my skills.

I think the thing to focus on isn't so much hacking people down when they ask pricing questions, but maybe letting people know that it's OK not to be totally awesome right away...that building that experience over time is perfectly alright, and even charging for it is fine.

Now that I've said all that...I do want to add that while I might not be as good as my competition, there is a bakery near me that needs to work on smoothing their butter cream. *shudder* Even my first Wilton cake was smoother than some of the pieces they've sent out the door.

It's funny how the friends and family that see my cakes rave and rave and tell me I should go into business, and when I tell them I wouldn't make enough money, they think I'm out of my gourd. But when I show them a photo of a professional cake compared to my hobby cake, then they get it. It pains me to out myself as an amateur to the muggles out there, but it's got to be done. They're really aghast when I tell them how much I *could* charge for one of my custom scratch cakes if I thought my quality were up to par, because these are grocery-store cake people for the most part.

And I am going to have to stay far away from grocery store bakeries because it is getting too hard to bite my tongue and keep my mouth shut when I see people inquring about cakes. I want to scream, "NO! Don't do it! I can bake you something INCREDIBLE!" and then I remember I'm not there yet. This one woman was at Safeway yesterday asking about the size and price of a half versus a full sheet cake, and I had to keep saying to myself, "Not your customer. Not your customer. Not your customer."

I know that aesthetically people have very different tastes. What is "perfect" to one person, is a total mess to another.

What I don't get is why you would go into business unless you are an expert in the field. Customers shouldn't be guinea pigs.

I have my share of "I'm not good enough" days, don't get me wrong. But I'm still a business, and every cake that goes out my door needs to scream "professional." Do I still have a lot to learn? Of course! But again, a paid-for cake needs to look professional- clean lines, straight writing, good colors. Does this take practice? You bet, and so does everything you do in life. Is it expensive to learn? You got it, but it is the price you have to pay when you want to be in business.

I think people are putting the cart before the horse when they go into business and admit they are "practicing," or "still learning," and therefore aren't going to charge very much.

Giving pricing advice based on what I would do vrs a beginner asking the advice should be irrelevant- if they are a beginner, they shouldn't be pricing at all.

I know, I know, I'm being a little harsh and black and white. I still struggle with the business end of it, and there are times I need advice on that. But when you enter a specific business without knowing exactly how to make said product look professional, then you're in over your head and it drives me nuts.

so here's my question...how do you know when you're "good enough"?? I am a total obsessive perfectionist about anything creative I do, and I am definitely my own worst critic (as far as I know anyway... ) so how do I know if I am truly horrible or if I am just being impossibly hard on myself?

Yay, @costumeczar. Now, how to convince the supermarket bakery customers to consider supporting their local custom bakers?

I guess I should clarify what I meant.

I wasn't saying that I started my business to use my clients as guinea pigs, that's what family is for. I guess what I was saying is that I see my flaws, I know my current limits and strengths. I'm not to the level of the caking-greats, but I feel confident in my own abilities. I've seen my competition (nice, commercial bakery) and they can do things I can't do. But like I said before, they also can't smooth their butter cream cakes and I can.

Anything that goes out my door with my business name on it (i.e., for a client) is clean and professional (http://www.cakecentral.com/cake-photo_1680548.html). Anything I'm experimenting with for family or friends, gratis, is where I learn new techniques. Or for myself (http://www.cakecentral.com/cake-photo_1745566.html).

I also would never promise a client I could deliver something professional if it would be my first time attempting a high-technical level. For example, if I had someone ask me to make them a topsy-turvy cake next week, I would find a way to explain, politely, that they might seek out a decorator who is more proficient (although it's on my list of "cakes to do for guinea pigs"). No one wants to end up on Cake Wrecks, unless it's Sunday.

Another example...I had someone ask me to make a 3d squirrel cake. I explained that although I didn't feel it was my area of expertise, I could do a squirrel-themed cake that WAS in my area of expertise. Did he order from me? Nope. But not because of my alternative, but because he ran out of time. His poor wife didn't get any cake.

So I guess what I'm saying is...there's a level of professionalism that goes beyond decorating ability, and you should never sell a client something that you wouldn't actually pay money for yourself.

I think the quality part comes into play in the profit section of the equation.

Honestly you can't change less than the costs/labor or you might as well not even bother doing cakes. But you can increase the amount of profit you want as your work improves or the design warrants it.

Edited to add:

I do think when it comes to labor the person pricing their cakes need to be realistic about it. If someone is newer and slower they may have to take a bit of a hit there because it wouldn't be fair to the customer to pay for 8 hours of work when it probably could have been done in 6. And like any other job, "entry level pay" is always lower and you get raises as your skills increase.

I agree with TexasSugar...isn't this an example of standard Economics. You can apply this idea to anything. People start businesses, whether it is a service or a product. The laws of demand with weed out the lesser of the businesses and only the talented, experienced, quality products or services will stand the test of time. That is the beauty of a free market. Anyone is free and able to start a business (within legal guidelines) and it is up to them to continue and prosper. 9 out of 10 businesses fail...in any industry...whether that has to do with motivation, product quality, knowledge, customer service, or pure business sense.

All the better for the people who are wonderful at what they do. Those amateurs that are selling the poor quality cakes will make their clients run into the shops of those who are great, and eventually run themselves out of business. And, if not, their clients are content enough to stick with them, so...whatever.

To add to costume's great car analogy ......

I used to have a job where I averaged 3 days a week on a plane (that didnt' count the days in a hotel!). I flew standard coach because it saved the company money, of course (i.e. Walmart cake).

Hubby and I went to Vegas for the Baker's Convention a couple of years ago. On the way home, the airline ran a special for an upgrade to first class (customized cake) for a ridiculously low rate. We jumped on it.

Oh. My. God. I dont' care what it costs me, I am NEVER flying coach again! It's first class or nothing!

My point of reference didnt' include first class flying. But once I experienced the difference .... man oh man there is no turning back!

I'm not in the bizz...just a hobby right now and having a lot of fun doing it. I wanted to chim in and say that I don't think you need to be an EXPERT to start your business. I do believe you need to know your limitations, be honest with the quality of your work (and show examples of your work), and be willing to decline an order if it is out of your skill leve. Bottom line, unless you are in high demand...you don't get to demand high prices.

My point is, people ask me to build them cakes (like Cake Boss style) and I say no. I have zero desire to make a dog, squirl, house, boat, etc. I want to make a cake that looks like a cake. If I tried, it would look terrible. I know my strengths and will work on perfecting them. But I have a good friend Suzieq929 on here who will try anything and does great work.