You are welcome cakelady99. One more point, since these are administrative search warrants, the standards are much lower than say a criminal case. Where you need probable cause for a criminal search warrant, here you only need reasonable suspicion. In a criminal case, you have to be proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. Here again, lower standard, guilt by the preponderance of evidence, which is much less proof required.
ok, so you're saying someone could knock on your door, flash a piece of paper and come in and dump bleach all over your food/house/etc.??
First of all, unless you're taking me away in handcuffs, you're not coming in my house without being invited, secondly .......I would be following them around my house with a shotgun IF they got in! lol
It's one thing for them to inspect but if they walk in with jugs of bleach, IT'S ON!!!! lol
KHalstead, I am not sure what you are talking about with respect to bleach? But, yes, if they have a search warrant, they come in, with you there or not. If you refuse, then yes, you can be arrested and charged with a crime, interference with government administration. Every state has some type of this law on their books for people who interfere in the execution of a search warrant, criminal or civil warrant, doesn't matter.
lol........sorry, I followed the link on page 1 of this thread and read that WHOLE other thread about people getting busted...........some health inspectors walked into businesses and dumped bleach over all their food in their fridge and contertops, etc.!! There were even links in there to actual news articles.....one about these poor older women who were making egg salad sandwiches for something and the health department came in and dumped bleach on all their sandwiches, because when asked where the eggs were boiled, several women responded "at their homes" and they were deemed "unsafe" due to that answer! Crazy!
is there a way to verify if a search warrant is for real or not?? I'm SO paranoid about opening the door to strangers (I'm like a 5 yr. old when I'm home alone LOL)
One time about 10 yrs. ago ( I was in my EARLY 20's) and I had just moved into a new apt. and was scheduled to have the cable turned on between 12:00 pm -5:0O PM (gotta love that window), and someone knocked on my door at 9:10 am saying he was there to turn on the cable and could he come in??? I was like...UH UH!!! I made him slide his i.d. under the door and I called the cable company and described the man to verify that he was in fact THEIR employee LOL
The guy was so mad at me !!! OH well, better safe than sorry right? hehehe
It is better safe than sorry because some nut case could break in and assault you..I never answer the door when I am home alone and if I do I look through the door window to see who it is...Our door bell rang 9 pm at night in the middle of a snow blizzard last year...3 suspicios looking guys standing on my door step in black leather jackets so we never answered..Very weird though...scary...they went away!
The guy was so mad at me !!! OH well, better safe than sorry right? hehehe
Definitely better safe than sorry. And it was not even about HIM, so he should not have been mad to begin with. It was about YOU and your safety.
We are going off topic, but a couple years ago when my husband was deployed, three very large men rang my doorbell at 8pm. We don't have streetlights, and it was very dark. I called my neighbor, and he ran over to my house, so then I opened my garage door. The men ran to the side of the house where my garage was and slowed down very quickly when they saw my neighbor coming and his wife on the porch holding her phone. They were on the news the next evening for breaking into people's homes at night. SCARY! better safe than sorry, Tina!! Don't blame you at all!!!
In response to the question about the HD posting if they shut a business down, I do not know that for sure.
I live in a smallish city, trust me it wouldn't take long for word to get around. I mean, all of the sudden I am not taking orders or I am asking around about renting space or something. People talk, that's the way it is pretty much everywhere.
I mean, somewhere like LA or NY maybe no one would really find out; average town USA they will. And like I said before folks rarely get the facts straight.
By the time the "news" gets through the grapevine you will have poisoned 500 people at 3 weddings. 
In response to the question about the HD posting if they shut a business down, I do not know that for sure.
I live in a smallish city, trust me it wouldn't take long for word to get around. I mean, all of the sudden I am not taking orders or I am asking around about renting space or something. People talk, that's the way it is pretty much everywhere.
I mean, somewhere like LA or NY maybe no one would really find out; average town USA they will. And like I said before folks rarely get the facts straight.
By the time the "news" gets through the grapevine you will have poisoned 500 people at 3 weddings.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure there isn't exactly a newsletter that lists names of businesses that have been given warnings or shut down in the past month, but people talk. Someone who has a good relationship with their inspector might be chatting one day and the inspector casually mentions that they had to shut someone down the other day. Then this baker starts getting a couple new orders and asks if how they were referred. The client could say, my other baker, Cakes by ABC called me and said they couldn't do the cake. Or they just notice driving by that the other bakery suddenly isn't open anymore.
Word gets around, people talk. It could have been because they didn't have the proper license. But you know how that telephone game goes, by the end of the week the bakery could have closed because of mold and cockroaches.
Or they just notice driving by that the other bakery suddenly isn't open anymore.
Right, but you're talking about an actual business -- a brick and mortar operation. Sure, they would be noticed. But how about one of the threads on CC where the poster says, "hey I bake a cake here and there and get reimbursed for the ingredients." or "I bake for friends and family..."
the follow-up responses are full of the scary possibilities and warnings so I'd like to hear first-hand account of any of these scenarios and the consequences.
In my area/state, I can go online to the health dept site and get the 'grade' and HD report of any food business. My hometown newspaper (small town of about 30K) publishes HD grades and reports, listing the violations. Although in my hometown, as mentioned above, it's so small that we dont' really need the newspaper to find out which places got bad grades! And while we haven't subscribed to our city paper for some time, I seem to recall reading HD grades and reports in the Indpls paper, too.
So yeah .... the info is published.
In my area, the local paper prints the results of food establishments surveys with the hd.
As far as being home alone, True story happened to my mother when we were little. Late at night my mom heard a car stop out front when she went to look (we lived on a very bad corner that had lots of accidents and in the days before cell phones people would need to use the phone) Well what does she see when she looks out but a drunken man urinating on the front lawn. Well she gets yelling "quick Richard get the gun" (she was home alone with us that night) Well needless to say i think that guy tinkled on himself cause he was out of there as fast as he could be.
cakelady99- I've been following this thread and really am wondering why such an interest in this topic of the HD and if you get caught what would happen etc, esp as your a hobby baker, are you considering starting a business? There are many threads on CC about legal and illegal business which I find very helpful and interesting after saying that I'd still to checking with the appropriate government bodies in my area for information. I am in Texas where it is illegal to bake at home for profit sadly.
Or they just notice driving by that the other bakery suddenly isn't open anymore.
Right, but you're talking about an actual business -- a brick and mortar operation. Sure, they would be noticed. But how about one of the threads on CC where the poster says, "hey I bake a cake here and there and get reimbursed for the ingredients." or "I bake for friends and family..."
the follow-up responses are full of the scary possibilities and warnings so I'd like to hear first-hand account of any of these scenarios and the consequences.
If someone is baking cakes for family or for strangers in a state that doesn't allow home bakeries and they accept reimbursement for ingredients, that's taking payment for a cake. Not allowed. If someone is baking cakes for family events here and there and not accepting any kind of payment for it, they're fine. It's not a business, it's just someone contributing to the party. Just the same as someone bringing potato salad.
And interesting to know that HD is publishing grades about local businesses. I'm gonna be looking through my city paper from now on!!!
My local paper prints health notices every week. I am always checking before heading out for Saturday night dinner.
And to answer the question about whether or not a search warrant is valid, here in NJ when an administrative search warrant is being served (different than criminal sw), the local police usually accompany the govenment official to the place being searched (usually for the protection of the government official). But if you ever find yourself on the end of a sw, call your local police to have them respond to check out the person serving the warrant. In this day and age, you never can be too careful. (speaking from 25 years of experience as a criminal prosecutor)
My local paper prints health notices every week. I am always checking before heading out for Saturday night dinner.
This is exactly why my family is not permitted to each at ANY buffet-type places and a certain "all you can eat" pizza place in town.
If someone is baking cakes for family or for strangers in a state that doesn't allow home bakeries and they accept reimbursement for ingredients, that's taking payment for a cake. Not allowed.
Understood. So again, what I'd like to know is, where are the accounts of the health dept intervening in these cases, beyond simply the anecdotal interpretations of the law that are presented here.
I am not asking to have the legality explained or to be convinced in the right or wrong, I would just like to be informed of actual events, the circumstances of the interaction with the health dept and the consequences that they personally experienced.
I would just like to be informed of actual events, the circumstances of the interaction with the health dept and the consequences that they personally experienced.
I'm a bit confused ... see my post and leah's post on page 1. Those are actual events and the circumstances of the interaction of the health dept. It sounds like you have a pre-determined answer in your head and you're waiting for someone to give you that answer? 
What are you looking for, beyond the examples of actual events already given?
Try to give you a quick real example. I owned a coffee shop that I eventually turned into both coffee shop/cafe for about 6 years. Licensed by health department (there are different classes but I no longer remember them.) Anyway, we started baking cookies and muffins to go along with the coffee. Used a household stove. Health Department inspector knew that I used it but basically, ignored it because it was never on when he inspected. All my employees knew that we waited until afternoon to bake.
Well, I go on vacation. Employee decides to get out all the cookie and muffin dough in the morning, had them spread out everywhere - in walks the health department inspector (They usually do inspections in the morning, right before lunchtime.) Got written warning - to install commercial equipment within 30 days. $8000 later, I had complete fire supression hood, commercial stove, reconfigured plumbing, gas, electric - etc. - just to bake muffins.!! Both the hood installer and the fire inspector thought it was ridiculous - but I had to do that to stay in business.
Funny thing is, the health inspector has moved to another position. Not too long ago, I was back in that community and went to a new cafe. They were using a household stove without any type of hood, to fry sandwiches on top!!! (You could see into the kitchen area.) Nope - Ohio laws haven't changed but local inspectors have.
I would just like to be informed of actual events, the circumstances of the interaction with the health dept and the consequences that they personally experienced.
I'm a bit confused ... see my post and leah's post on page 1. Those are actual events and the circumstances of the interaction of the health dept. It sounds like you have a pre-determined answer in your head and you're waiting for someone to give you that answer?
What are you looking for, beyond the examples of actual events already given?
No. I don't have a pre-determined answer. The examples that have been provided address part of my initial question. Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to reply.
I believe your example was someone operating a catering business with a website, reaching out to the public and Leah's was a well-known B&B where an error was made. But I was hoping to hear from a home baker. Someone who makes a cake now and then for friends and family. Someone who isn't interested in making a living or even extra money. Time and time again, they are told by CC members that what they are doing is illegal, given some scary worst-case scenarios, and a perhaps a morality lesson for good measure.
I hate to use metaphors because they can be misinterpreted. But here goes, there was a story in Syracuse about this mom who was tasered by a police officer in front of here kids because she didn't follow the law to the letter. Link to follow. And there was public outrage when the story hit the press. Did she break the law? According to the officer's interpretation yes. Did her actions warrant the taser? Probably not. I'm curious if there are stories of metaphorically similar situations. Not anecdotes of "I heard", but first-person examples.
The two examples previously provided are of people trying make a living or even extra money selling food. While the letter of the law might be that you can't accept money for a cake in certain circumstances, could anyone relay a story where this was experienced. For example, the ladies with the egg-salad. I'm not arguing these stories don't exist, I just haven't heard one yet.
I would like to hear of anyone's account of being questioned, fined, etc. by the health dept. when they were not trying to operate a business yet did accept reimbursement for ingredients, or any other fringe case.
http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2009/08/mom_in_minivan_tasered_in_traf.html
If someone is baking cakes for family or for strangers in a state that doesn't allow home bakeries and they accept reimbursement for ingredients, that's taking payment for a cake. Not allowed.
Understood. So again, what I'd like to know is, where are the accounts of the health dept intervening in these cases, beyond simply the anecdotal interpretations of the law that are presented here.
I am not asking to have the legality explained or to be convinced in the right or wrong, I would just like to be informed of actual events, the circumstances of the interaction with the health dept and the consequences that they personally experienced.
In the link I posted, cakesbyallison posted her personal story. Is this not what you are wanting?
ETA: Mac was also caught and fined $350:
http://cakecentral.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=46933&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=45
Bottom line: yes people have been caught and fined. The amount of the fines and degree to which your local health department cares or follows through depend on the laws in your state and county.
I understand that people are caught and fined. My question is really about the authority of the health dept. Who are these people? What do they really do? The thread you pointed me is a perfect example. The stories are all anecdotal and there is a lot of hype and fear. Is anyone willing to step forward to tell their actual story? If not publicly, perhaps via PM.
It's not only the health department, it's the state sales tax department, and the IRS. They're always very interested in people who have been doing business without reporting sales tax and income. The health department can shut you down, and the other agencies will then step in and calculate how much back tax you owe based on their estimates, however they do that. I'm sure it will be estimated on the high end, too. I do know of caterers who have been fined around here, so it does happen.
Once upon a time in a lovely little town in the good ol USA. There lived this lady who loved to bake pies, brownies and tarts. Everyone loved her goodies. Without realizing it she was running a business out of her home just by people paying her to make stuff for them. Fast forward 5 years down the road. Someone suggests to her that she needs to place an ad in the local paper around Christmas so she could get a little extra Christmas money for her kiddos. She places an ad. 24 hours later her phone rings. Its the HD informing her that she can't do that. 3 days later she receives a fine for $1000. 3 days after that the State contacts her saying that they have been informed that she has been collecting an income from an unlicensed business and that they will be doing an investigation. 2 months later and $$$$$ in fees and unpaid back taxes she moves and is never heard from again.
that was enough for me to make sure I was 100% legal before I did anything.
I'm glad you brought up the tax authorities costumeczar, I'd also like to add that any business needs to be licensed through the city chamber of commerce. A common fine for being caught unlicensed is twice the licensing fee.
That's something different than Virginia, we don't have that requirement. But you bring up a good point, don't take licensing advice from people on the internet, check with your local authorities since every town has different requirements!
I always cringe when I see someone asking "what do I need to do to start a business in Virginia" (since that's where I am) and I see people from everywhere BUT Virginia giving really specific advice that has nothing to do with the regulations here. Since I'm in Virginia I know that they're wrong, so just be careful, the rules aren't the same across the board.
(nwnest, I'm nott saying that you're wrong, I just thought you raised a good point that you need to check out all the rules for your specific location!)
Ditto on Costumeczar... like I said on the 1st page everytime I move my business I check all local & state resources to make sure I am doing what it takes in their community.... Any one organization in the process chain can make it impossible for you to bake..
As for real stories many of us with legal business are working with you here.... & I am not sure those w/illegal business would answer becasue they don't want to get caught/turned in....
I'm not sure why you are demanding examples. Those that have been caught may not feel comfortable sharing their stories. Since you want examples, I'll give you one. An aunt of one of my friend's was caught selling wedding cakes from her home. She had a very lucrative home cake business. Somone turned her in to the Department of Agriculture. She was fined (don't recall the amount) and is prohibited from ever opening her own cake business. The Dept. of Ag will not grant her a license. Due to her disregarding the law, she robbed herself of the opportunity of opening a legitimate business down the road. She now works for a local bakery.
Bottom line is it doesn't matter if someone has a story to share or not. The law is the law. No matter how you spin it, someone doesn't have to provide proof that the law is enforced to know what is legal and illegal. Your posts give the impression that you are searching for someone to give you the green light to operate a business without a license. If you choose to ignore the law and are willing to take a chance of getting caught, that is your prerogative. Providing you with examples and proof really serves no purpose.
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