I have been doing some research in the last two days which is always a bad thing.
To keep this short because the cupcakes are due to be out of the oven in a minute. I have found that it does matter what is in the batter. It seams the smaller the pan the less liquid and leavener you need. Has anybody else found this? I am about to find out with my batch coming out.
My subject line is deceiving, I apologize.
What I wanted to talk about are cake recipes that are specifically used to make cupcakes.
In my research I have found in a couple of places that three things will help with a cupcake.
- A tad less leavening
- less liquid (will prevent the liners from coming off the cake)
- Using the creaming method vs. the two-stage method.
I also read somewhere that cake pan size will matter. That the smaller your cake pan then the less leavening you need for the cake. This holds true for any recipe where you use a pan less than what is stated in the recipe (so I have read. I am not experienced enough to state this as a fact).
I made a batch of chocolate cupcakes last week. I used the recipe printed in Confetti Cakes for Kids - chocolate cake recipe. They were nice and concave in the oven and they all immediately fell as soon as I took them out of the oven. They tasted great and with the frosting who can tell. Then the liners starting coming off of some of them, but not all. Still, I am stubborn and must get to the bottom of the issue.
Today I made another batch. Here are my changes:
1. 1/4 cup less liquid than called for in recipe
2. 1/2 less tsp of baking powder
3. 1/2 less tsp of baking soda
4. Bake at 350 for 18 minutes
5. I mixed the flour, bp, bs and salt together in a separate bowl with the whisk attachment on stir for at least a minute.
6. I melted the cocoa into the coffee before I added it to the mix.
So far, after 10 minutes cooling, they taste great. They got a nice mound, but not totally flat and not real high either. I like this look. Two of the cupcakes look a bit fallen. It can't be cooking time or oven temp (which I check religiously. I have an oven thermometer in both ovens.)
Plus twice now I have gotten more cupcakes than the recipe states. I had to let enough batter for 9 more cupcakes sit out while I waited for the others ones to cook and the pan to cool. So far in the oven they look nice and concave with a mounded top, but we will see what happens when they come out.
I would check to see if this is been discussed somewhere on CC here. But the serious cupcake discussion is 752 pages long. That is a whole lot of reading to find out that recipe specific may or may not have been discussed.
In the meantime if these cupcakes hold up their moisture over the next few days, then my modified recipe will be the one for me. I won't know til tomorrow because I always check my cupcakes and cakes for taste the day after I make them. Sometimes it takes that long before I get them to my kids to eat.
Ok, we just tried a cupcake with frosting at 9:00. Sorry to say they are too dry for my taste. 
I made these last week and they were moist for days, soooo I think I should not have reduced the coffee to 1 cup instead of 1 1/4. That small amount seems to making a difference. It is either that or the amount of cocoa dissolved into the liquid which made it into a rather thick paste afterwards. There is a recipe in another book similar to this one that I am going to go back and compare.
On the good news side, reducing the leavening seemed to help with the problem of doming and then flattening. I got a slight raise out of the cup and they did not deflate when they cooled. I'm happy with that.
It is back to the drawing board. I should not have done all the different changes all at once. I should have tested each change on a different batch to see where I can tweek back. I hope it is the liquid difference and not the dissolving cocoa change. Because the chocolate taste is enhanced by melting the cocoa. However, I used Ghirardelli unsweetened cocoa which is 90% fat, so that may have something to do with it. Maybe by melting all that cocoa fat so early it effected the moisture content of the batter.
Hope this helps somebody. In the meantime DH is taking these to work tomorrow and leaving them in the break room. He says they will get eaten up in no time. 
I love that you posted this! I am maniacal about creating my recipes from the ground up and have worked hard to make good cupcake recipes. I can't stand a domeless cupcake!
Some thoughts on your chocolate cupcakes...
-what kind of fat do you use? Butter adds flavor in white cakes but results in a firmer cake with a drier mouthfeel. Try subbing half canola oil for your fat and see how that affects it. I played with my chocolate recipe A LOT and eventually removed the butter altogether in favor of oil. The chocolate flavor overpowers anything the butter contributes anyway, and the oil will keep it moist longer.
-Chocolate does contribute fat, but it will behave similar to butter. Any fat that is solid at room temp will do that.
-An alternative to using oil would be to change the type of liquid you use. Instead of milk or water/coffee try buttermilk or sour cream. Buttermilk will mute the chocolate flavor somewhat (good for German chocolate) but sour cream enhances it well in my experience. Also, sour cream will result in a slightly thicker batter which is easier to dish out. If you use sour cream or buttermilk you may have to decrease your other fats to compensate. My favorite liquid combo is 1/2c sour cream and 1/4c boiling water for the chocolate and cocoa powder. (BTW, my recipe makes a little over 1 doz) The water/chocolate mix becomes a thick, fudgy paste and doesn't affect my results.
-You were right that over-leavening was the cause for fallen cupcakes. The goal for a regular cake is a flat top, while the goal for cupcakes is very different. Over leavening, especially with baking soda, neutralizes too much acidity in the dough and causes domes to fall before the batter can set and "catch the rise." (See below for more details on acidity.)
Now some general cupcake chemistry tips:
-On leavening, a great rule of thumb is 1tsp baking powder or 1/4tsp baking soda per cup of flour. I prefer baking powder and use it almost exclusively.
-Be very careful of over-leavening your batter, especially with baking soda, as you may neutralize too much of the acid. A slightly acidic batter is essential to allow the eggs to set. If your batter is too PH neutral your cupcakes will seemingly refuse to cook and stay wet. Adding some kind of acid (buttermilk, sour cream, or even that mysterious vinegar in red velvet cake recipes) allows the eggs to set up and will result in a more even rise and a moister cake. It is possible to have an overly acidic batter, and you will recognize it by the pointy tops. Too much acid caused the edges to set too quickly leaving the batter nowhere to expand but in the middle. You have to find that sweet spot where you have the leavening rising at the right pace so that your eggs set after the batter starts to rise but before the center reaches it's highest. This is by far my biggest cupcake tip!
I highly recommend the book BakeWise by Shirley O. Corriher. Her book has been instrumental in helping me understand how ingredients do what they do so I know how to change a recipe to get the results I want. Another great read is Baking Illustrated, which is written by the people who do Cooks' Illustrated Magazine. They have a yellow cupcake recipe that is a really great base to start with and the articles were extremely helpful to me in getting the results I want. If you have any questions don't be afraid to ask! I have bored everyone else I know with all the baking facts I have learned lately, it would be fun to bore someone new! 
BTW, by coincidence my hubs will be taking in about 3doz chocolate cupcakes tomorrow as well. (leftovers from the tier in my pictures) I am legendary at his work, they inhale anything I throw at them. More importantly, I can't wait to get my counter space back!
Hi Cookiemakingmomma,
I have both books that you mention! Brilliant minds are working alike here as I referred to both of these books for this recipe.
I believe what is happening here is way to much cocoa, but I'll get back to that.
In Bakewise (and Cookwise too, another great book) Shirley talks about balancing a cake mix. This cake mix is not balanced for one. Shirley also mentions that often bakers will add cocoa to a white cake mix and not compensate for the fact that cocoa will act like flour. I think this is the case here. The recipe, IMO, has way to much flour. The total combined amount of cocoa and flour is 16 oz. 
That sounds like way to much to me. When I used Shirley's balancing formula I had an imbalance on the third item - something about the egg weight matching fat (I think). It was off. The eggs were half the weight of the fat.
I am going back to the balancing formula this morning (now that I have had a chance to sleep on it) and rework the recipe. One of the first things I intend to do is reduce the amount of cocoa. This recipe calls for 1 1/4 cups plus 2 tablespoon of cocoa. And one of my first thoughts when I bit into the first cupcake is it had a overly bitter taste and I think this is from too much cocoa.
As for switching out the butter for the oil, I haven't gotten that far yet. Switching it out means that I can't use the creaming method. But I can use Shirley's book to help me rewrite that part also. I could use the two-step method which will work for a hi-ratio cake and this one is that kind with the sugar weighing more than the flour, that is if I don't count the cocoa. If I count the cocoa as a flour because it acts like it then it is off balance there too. Thus the reason why I think I need to lower that also.
The recipe already has sour cream in it.
That brings me to Baking Illustrated. In their recipe (which I should just use instead of this one. It has the same ingredients only more balanced. I don't know why I am being so stubborn about using Confetti Cakes recipe) they mix the cocoa with boiling water and then mix it into the sour cream with the coffee express powder (vs real brewed coffee in CC recipe) and vanilla. Then all of that is your liquid that you add to the cake with the flour in stages. BI uses 4 oz of chopped block chocolate and only 1/4 cup cocoa so they had less to dissolve as I did. Mine was a definite paste by the time I was done.
So this morning I think I have too much dry ingredients - the total weight of the two is 16 oz. I'm going to rewrite the recipe. In the meantime I need to make two cakes for this weekend's cake decorating class, plus all the frosting for two cakes. I'm starting on the frosting today just so I can have some success in the kitchen.
Thanks so much for your input. I love it that we have read the same books and have the same mind set about this. It can only mean we are on the right track. I hope I get to talk cupcake some more with you in the future.
Do you ever get to reading that BI book and wish that you had a job where you could go bake all day long and write about it? It sounds like my dream job!
I'm glad to read this post! I just baked some chocolate cupcakes last week from leftover cake batter and they were just weird. The texture of the cupcakes were just fine, the shape was off. I am so interested in learning about baking chemistry but haven't bought any of the books yet. Cookiemakinmama, can you just come to my kitchen and work on recipes with me 
? I like to use scratch recipes that I have manipulated enough to call my own but don't always have the time for trial and error. It would help a lot if I understood the chemistry behind it all. Oddly, I was a chemistry major in college they just didn't cover baking chemistry! All that to say, this is very interesting reading!
I'm glad to read this post! I just baked some chocolate cupcakes last week from leftover cake batter and they were just weird. The texture of the cupcakes were just fine, the shape was off. I am so interested in learning about baking chemistry but haven't bought any of the books yet. Cookiemakinmama, can you just come to my kitchen and work on recipes with me
? I like to use scratch recipes that I have manipulated enough to call my own but don't always have the time for trial and error. It would help a lot if I understood the chemistry behind it all. Oddly, I was a chemistry major in college they just didn't cover baking chemistry! All that to say, this is very interesting reading!
My best friend is also a Chemistry major. When I went to her with all this information I found out about leavining in baking, her eyes glazed over!
Definitely get Shirley Cooriher books. Bakewise and Cookwise opened my eyes to food science. If I had to do it all over again, I would have chosen that for a major.
Another good book is the Cake Bible by Rose Levy Beranbaum. Now talk about food science. She did her master thesis on why sifting does not properly mix the flour and BP together. Shirley is a big fan of self-rising flour and I'm not. I want more control over how much to add. But Rose breaks down how much leavining you need in cakes in relation to the size of the pan in order to get the proper cake. Her recipes are so fine tuned that using a different size pan than what is indicated in the recipe will result in failure. Luckily she walks you through that for making cupcakes on how much BP to reduce.
I used Shirley's book to very successfully change my MIL's cookie recipe that she has been making for years. She had way too much BP - 4 TBLSP to 2 .5 cups of flour. Talk about overkill! I changed it back to a more balanced recipe and my DH said that this is what he remembered as a kid. I think my MIL has just got generous over the years thinking a bit more won't hurt. Some people love to bake like they cook - a pinch more here and there won't hurt. Only in baking it will. I tell everybody that baking is chemistry with edible ingredients resulting in edible results. You have to be precise. And that's probably why I get a lot of people telling me they do not like to bake. But that is precisely why I love it...when it results in deliciously edible results!
Hi Cookiemakingmomma,
I have both books that you mention! Brilliant minds are working alike here as I referred to both of these books for this recipe.
I believe what is happening here is way to much cocoa, but I'll get back to that.
In Bakewise (and Cookwise too, another great book) Shirley talks about balancing a cake mix. This cake mix is not balanced for one. Shirley also mentions that often bakers will add cocoa to a white cake mix and not compensate for the fact that cocoa will act like flour. I think this is the case here. The recipe, IMO, has way to much flour. The total combined amount of cocoa and flour is 16 oz.
That sounds like way to much to me. When I used Shirley's balancing formula I had an imbalance on the third item - something about the egg weight matching fat (I think). It was off. The eggs were half the weight of the fat.I am going back to the balancing formula this morning (now that I have had a chance to sleep on it) and rework the recipe. One of the first things I intend to do is reduce the amount of cocoa. This recipe calls for 1 1/4 cups plus 2 tablespoon of cocoa. And one of my first thoughts when I bit into the first cupcake is it had a overly bitter taste and I think this is from too much cocoa.
As for switching out the butter for the oil, I haven't gotten that far yet. Switching it out means that I can't use the creaming method. But I can use Shirley's book to help me rewrite that part also. I could use the two-step method which will work for a hi-ratio cake and this one is that kind with the sugar weighing more than the flour, that is if I don't count the cocoa. If I count the cocoa as a flour because it acts like it then it is off balance there too. Thus the reason why I think I need to lower that also.
The recipe already has sour cream in it.
That brings me to Baking Illustrated. In their recipe (which I should just use instead of this one. It has the same ingredients only more balanced. I don't know why I am being so stubborn about using Confetti Cakes recipe) they mix the cocoa with boiling water and then mix it into the sour cream with the coffee express powder (vs real brewed coffee in CC recipe) and vanilla. Then all of that is your liquid that you add to the cake with the flour in stages. BI uses 4 oz of chopped block chocolate and only 1/4 cup cocoa so they had less to dissolve as I did. Mine was a definite paste by the time I was done.
So this morning I think I have too much dry ingredients - the total weight of the two is 16 oz. I'm going to rewrite the recipe. In the meantime I need to make two cakes for this weekend's cake decorating class, plus all the frosting for two cakes. I'm starting on the frosting today just so I can have some success in the kitchen.
Thanks so much for your input. I love it that we have read the same books and have the same mind set about this. It can only mean we are on the right track. I hope I get to talk cupcake some more with you in the future.
Do you ever get to reading that BI book and wish that you had a job where you could go bake all day long and write about it? It sounds like my dream job!
Yeah, that is a crazy amount of flour/cocoa! My recipes rarely go above 7.5oz total per 1doz(ish). Reducing that would definitely help! I still basically do the creaming method with my chocolate cupcakes, even though I use all oil. I whip the heck out of the sugar/oil, add eggs, sour cream, chocolate sludge, and vanilla in one go, whip that up, and then add the dry ingredients (previously whisked together in a separate bowl) in two or three additions and I get a great crumb. My goal was a texture that was somewhere between cake and brownie (I HATE dry cake!
) Also, I have found that increasing the sugar by even 1/2 or 1/4oz can do incredible things for texture, crumb, moisture, etc. Just another thought for the Idea Bank.
I have to admit, even my eyes glazed over at the part in BakeWise where she discussed a formula for the perfect cake. I should probably go back and reread it because, although I was able to get a great chocolate recipe fairly easily (ok, fine, more like 10 dozen cupcakes later...) I can't seem to get good domes on my yellow cake. I know, all my technical chatter and I still can't manage a simple yellow cake! What can I say, I wanted chocolate first! I liked the Baker's Illustrated yellow cupcake recipe but it was a bit dry and bland for me so I started monkeying with it and now I have good taste and no domes! Ugh!
Oh yeah, and if you don't already, keep notes on EVERYTHING! I write down the starting recipe, the date I wrote it, and at the bottom of the paper I date each time I make it, what I liked and didn't like, and jot down ideas for changes or changes that I included with that particular test run. When I finally tweak it enough that it is hard to follow the recipe as originally written, I rewrite the recipe including all my changes, date it, and start all over again! I keep all these revisions in a binder, each recipe getting it's own sheet protector full of my tweaks and notes. I know, I'm a nut. 
And as for a job like the Cooks' Illustrated folks, I basically do it already! I get to test something to exhaustion and then wax poetic about it on here! Now I just have to start getting paid for it.... 
Another good book is the Cake Bible by Rose Levy Beranbaum.
I really have to get around to reading The Cake Bible, I have heard so much about it.
If I had to do it all over again, I would have chosen that for a major.
AMEN! I have a four year business/history degree that is gathering dust and a student loan that makes me pay for it anyway. Well alright I guess I am technically using my business degree, even though I am pretty sure my entrepreneurial father taught me more than I ever learned in school. Still... after graduation I applied to the French Pastry School in Chicago and almost went... but my husband had to go and ask me out a few weeks before I had planned to leave. Darn him and all. That's fine by me, I prefer self taught! It's WAY cheaper!
Some people love to bake like they cook - a pinch more here and there won't hurt. Only in baking it will. I tell everybody that baking is chemistry with edible ingredients resulting in edible results. You have to be precise. And that's probably why I get a lot of people telling me they do not like to bake. But that is precisely why I love it...when it results in deliciously edible results!
I totally agree! I think that's part of why I enjoy being in the kitchen so much. Cooking is great when I feel like being spontaneous and impulsive. I rarely if ever measure while cooking, but I am the total opposite about baking. When I want a real brain teaser or something that takes full attention and precision, I revel in baking. It's fun.
I'm glad to read this post! I just baked some chocolate cupcakes last week from leftover cake batter and they were just weird. The texture of the cupcakes were just fine, the shape was off. I am so interested in learning about baking chemistry but haven't bought any of the books yet. Cookiemakinmama, can you just come to my kitchen and work on recipes with me
? I like to use scratch recipes that I have manipulated enough to call my own but don't always have the time for trial and error. It would help a lot if I understood the chemistry behind it all. Oddly, I was a chemistry major in college they just didn't cover baking chemistry! All that to say, this is very interesting reading!
I will offer tips to your heart's content, but unfortunately trial and error is the only way to go if you want a specific result. Reading all the books we have mentioned will eliminate a lot of that trial and error though, so get your hienie down to the library and read up! It's fascinating stuff if you have to patience to read it all. I got BakeWise for Christmas and I got Bakers Illustrated for my mom. Luckily she hasn't insisted that I actually give it to her yet. 
Yes, in case you just checked your calendar, Christmas was four months ago! I'm thinking I should get it to her this weekend...
I definitely want to read bakewise. I have the cake bible and have read most of it. I need to re-read because I have definitely missed some things! My brain doesn't always absorb information on the first go. And usually I need to actually use the information or I won't remember it. Glad someone else's degrees are gathering dust! I have a four year biology/chemistry degree and two master's degrees (biology and secondary education) and now I am a stay at home mom who bakes cakes!
I just found an error in Bakewise, or is it an error in Cookwise, I don't know. I have looked on the internet to see if it there is a correction, but can't seem to find it. On page 30 of Bakewise for the part of balancing a shortened cake it says the total weight including the eggs should equal the sugar. But in Cookwise on page 139 it says the total amount of the liquid including the eggs should equal the flour. (Either way the recipe I have been using is way off for both anyways).
Now I have to reread both all over again to check this out. In Bakewise she goes on to show the example using the Hi-Ratio formula not the shortened formula. Hopefully I'll get an answer soon because I think I'm going to post a question on Rose's forum to see if I can get an answer. I'll let you all know.
Not related to the topic, but I know everyone here is familiar with the book.
Actually, now that I think about it my recipes more closely align with the ratio suggested by CookWise. Also, my sugar and flour are almost the same weight. Ok now I'm intrigued. Time to read up for myself! (like I don't have enough chores calling my name as it is!)
Oh! I just thought of another good book, and one a bit easier to understand for the non-science inclined. Try Alton Brown's book I'm Just Here For More Food: Food x Mixing + Heat = Baking. It doesn't go as in depth with the chemistry of ingredients but it is a great overview of what function each ingredient performs and the basic mixing methods used in baking. It is a great place to start for those who are just learning to bake from scratch.
Okay I found the answer, sort of. I googled balancing a shortened cake and I got a google book search that came up with The Professional Baker by Wayne Gisslen. Wow, another great book that I believe is a book used for teaching. If you search it you will find more info about balancing a recipe. My local library has a copy so I put it on hold. I can't wait to dive into that one.
Anyway he states the same formula. The Bakewise book is the one with the error. It should say that the weight of the liquid should equal the weight of the flour.
Chores! How funny. My kitchen/family room has books strewn from one end to the other while I research this and get to the bottom. In the meantime I have found at least a dozen other recipes I now want to try. But before I do they are going through the balance test first!
Anyway he states the same formula. The Bakewise book is the one with the error. It should say that the weight of the liquid should equal the weight of the flour.
Does this go for any type of cake or are we talking only chocolate cake? Just curious!
Anyway he states the same formula. The Bakewise book is the one with the error. It should say that the weight of the liquid should equal the weight of the flour.
Does this go for any type of cake or are we talking only chocolate cake? Just curious!
It would work for any kind of cake, but remember that your cocoa powder counts as flour in a recipe. 1/4c cocoa usually equals 3/4oz on my scale.
And interesting tidbit I found in The Professional Baker book is that if cocoa is added then it says to add water equal in weight to 75% to 100% of the cocoa. FYI
Do you guys always use weight measures to bake? I have just started converting all of my recipes to weights and then to percentages so that I can start learning the chemistry and figure out if the ratios are appropriate. Unfortunately I only have two recipes converted to weights (but they are the two that I use most often; white and chocolate cakes) and I have figured percentages for my white cake recipe. But I have no clue if the ingredients are in the right ratios. Anyway, I love using weights to bake. I dirty fewer measuring cups since I put the mixing bowl right on the scale! I wish I had figured that out sooner.
I get 1/4 c. cocoa powder measuring 7/8 oz on my scale.
I convert using the Bakewise book as my guide. Shirley has a chart in the back with the weights of some ingredients Cocoa weighs 2.9 ounces per cup.
And yes, I now weigh all my ingredients, except for tsp and Tblsp stuff. Shirley says it's not worth weighing those.
What kind of scale do you have? I am thinking I might need a nicer one that has smaller increments. Mine is a relatively inexpensive model from Target! Thanks so much for all of your information, btw. Its really quite interesting! I can't wait to get the bakewise book.
Okay, don't laugh. But right now I am using a postal scale I have in the house. I'm going to get a kitchen scale, really I am. But it is so good at weighing and has a gram conversion and all that it works good. I can't even begin to tell you where I got it, probably Office Max or Staples or some place like that.
You will love the Bakewise book. I have yet to place it on the shelf because I use it every day.
I'll bet the postal scale is actually better than a kitchen scale. It is probably more sensitive. Mine has grams too but I rarely use it.
Hey LindaF144! Any luck on your recipe so far? I found The Professional Baker book at my library but have been WAY too busy to do more than skim it. Plus it's a real-deal textbook, which for some reason means the author(s) are required to write in a very verbose and confusing manner. 
I need to set aside a whole afternoon (and a few asprin) before I can really devote some time to deciphering that sucker. I also nabbed The Cake Bible so it looks like my weekend is pretty well booked!
Hi Cookiemakingmomma,
No luck so far because I have had no time. I have a "thing" tonight I have to go to. It has been so long since I have been to a "thing" that I didn't even own a thing to wear. Seriously, I lost 60 lbs and have nothing but casual clothes. This is a fun day shopping and finding things that fit!
Then tomorrow I have to make two cakes to take to class 4 of course 1 Wilton class and then on Sunday I should start putting things in my garage for the neighborhood garage sale I committed to doing. My address is already in the paper so I'm kind of stuck. 
I probably won't get to the specific cupcake recipe until late next week after my garage sale and just in time for Mother's day.
I have been reading the Professional Baker online on what Google Book will allow me to see. It does look like it is going to take a lot of concentration! I put it on order from my library, but that will take a while to get to me.
You will like The Cake Bible. I found it easy to read. I didn't delve too much into the math part or what she calls something like the Rose formula. I'm saving that for later when I need it.
Let me know what you think of TPB once you get into it. I think you can learn a lot from that book.
I think I just figured out the BakeWise "typo!" The reason one book says egg & liquid should equal flour and another book says egg & liquid should equal sugar is because both books also say that sugar and flour should equal each other! Technically they are both right! Here is the full formula for shortened (standard butter) cakes: (This goes by weight and not volume.)
Sugar = or < Flour
Eggs = or > Fat
Liquid & Eggs = Sugar
There are variances within the formula, and allowances should be made for water content in butter, milk fat and water content in things like sour cream, etc. I need to find a list that breaks down the average content of a specific ingredient. That would make this a whole lot easier!
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