I am glad you did start this discussion. I didn't realize how many people use box mixes and now I don't feel bad about it because I am not the only one who does it. People love my cakes. I love my cakes. They are not only paying for the cake itself but for what I do to the cake. I would put my cakes up to a taste test against any bride who doesn't like boxed mixes. No, boxed mixes don't have premium ingredients, but if they taste the same, I don't see a difference in them. I know people may disagree. I understand their stance about business. I disagree with them. I don't have to advertise my cakes. People just seem to come to me. That tells me that I must be doing something right. I am still learning about business. I actually started a post a few weeks ago about a brownie order where I got taken to the cleaners. I'm not saying I know anything about business and that proves it (although I did learn my lesson). I just don't see why everyone is getting so upset. We do things different. And it is all good.
This is when the "scratch vs box" always takes a turn for the worse...when the scratch bakers heavily imply that it takes no skill, less time, and no effort to use a mix than from scratch.
Lissete makes a valid point, she just didn't use the right example. Using a box is parallel to having your basic dry ingredients (flour, sugar, and leavening) pre-mixed for you. That's it.
If a 'scratch' baker measured out their dry ingredients first, put it in a container to store until they needed it, and then added the wet ingredients to it later on when it was time to make the cake, does this then mean they are no longer baking from scratch? I know of quite a few scratch bakers who do this when they do high volume baking because it saves them time, so can they claim they are baking from scratch when they use their own mixes? I confess I did this with my cookie batches over Christmastime. I also would make the dough ahead and freeze it until I needed it later. So even though I did make the dough, can I still call it "scratch" because I scooped it out of a plastic tub from the freezer, no different than if it had "Nestle" stamped on the side? (tho my container had "Country Crock" stamped on it 
)
I do use a box...but I also use high quality vanilla and extracts, flavor oils, premium chocolate, fresh ground spices, fresh fruit, cream, butter, soft cheeses...everything Jaime uses! I have the same problems scratch bakers do, I mix in eggs, butter, milk, and all the same things a scratch baker does...I go through all of the same steps. -All- box bakers do.
That's why Box bakers get upset on here...it's not because people are slamming the box mix itself per se, it's when the scratch bakers backhandedly claim box bakers aren't doing the same amount of work or putting in the same care that they do. And I can't say I blame them.
That's why Box bakers get upset on here...it's not because people are slamming the box mix itself per se, it's when the scratch bakers backhandedly claim box bakers aren't doing the same amount of work or putting in the same care that they do. And I can't say I blame them.
you hit it on the nail!!!!
Thats why I meantion the fondant thing. If I worded it like this "Dont you feel like your cheating youe customers by buying fondant in a tub, instead of making it from scratch? "(WHICH I DONT BELIVE ITS JUST AN EXAMPLE)
Wouldnt you get your backs up?
We do the EXACT, and I mean EXACT same amount of work.
That's why Box bakers get upset on here...it's not because people are slamming the box mix itself per se, it's when the scratch bakers backhandedly claim box bakers aren't doing the same amount of work or putting in the same care that they do. And I can't say I blame them.
you hit it on the nail!!!!
Thats why I meantion the fondant thing. If I worded it like this "Dont you feel like your cheating youe customers by buying fondant in a tub, instead of making it from scratch? "(WHICH I DONT BELIVE ITS JUST AN EXAMPLE)
Wouldnt you get your backs up?
We do the EXACT, and I mean EXACT same amount of work.
That's it right there. Perfect!
Well, no, no you don't. You don't the exact amount of work. I'm sorry. I have many more steps in my preparation than a box mix requires.
For my buttermilk cake recipe, I do the following:
1. Cream butter and sugar together for about 10 minutes with blade.
2. Crack and separate whites from about 12 eggs.
3. Whip those to foamy stage, and hit it with cream of tartar. When it is nice and stiff, but not dry, add in more sugar.
4. Carefully weigh out cake flour.
5. Add the right amount of baking soda and salt.
6. Sift those together.
7. Add them in stages to the creamed butter and sugar along with the vanilla and butermilk.
8. Carefully fold in the egg white and sugar mixture to the batter. Take care not to over mix.
Sorry. There is no way on earth a straight from the box cake would ever require this time.
Edited to just retain pertinent info. Tired of putting a disclaimer on everything in this sensitive little place.
That's why Box bakers get upset on here...it's not because people are slamming the box mix itself per se, it's when the scratch bakers backhandedly claim box bakers aren't doing the same amount of work or putting in the same care that they do. And I can't say I blame them.
you hit it on the nail!!!!
Thats why I meantion the fondant thing. If I worded it like this "Dont you feel like your cheating youe customers by buying fondant in a tub, instead of making it from scratch? "(WHICH I DONT BELIVE ITS JUST AN EXAMPLE)
Wouldnt you get your backs up?
Um...actually no. Mainly because I do, in fact, think I'm cheating my customers by not making my own fondant. If I want to charge premium prices and give them the best quality that I, personally, can make on my own then I need to try and create all of my product from scratch. That's the only way I can know exactly what goes into my cakes and decorations. And that's why I'm going to try and make my own fondant and see if I can make one as good or better than Fondarific...which is pretty fondarific if you ask me.
but I wouldn't get my back up at all.
having said that...if I can't create my own fondant that's better than Fondarific then I will tell my customers it's a store bought fondant because I couldn't create a scratch recipe that tastes as good or works as well.
What I noticed when I started baking scratch, is the obvious lack of oily moisture in my cakes. The cake mixes I always tried required you add oil to them.
Now, call me crazy, but anything with a cup of oil in it is going to have the illusion of being moist. I say illusion, because technically (in my opinion) it isn't moist, it's just oily.
So, I can understand where someone would think a scratch cake that is moist (if baked and mixed properly) isn't moist, if they are basing what they perceive moist from box mixes and their oil requirements.
I think that because the most readily available type of cake that people can get is supermarket cake or cake mix, Americans are used to that texture. They think that "moist" (which is a marketing word that the boxed mix people push) is the same as "gummy" so far as mix cake texture goes.
If you know how to bake from scratch, your cake won't be dry, and it won't be gummy either. Boxed mixes have added hydrogenated fats to keep that texture consistent, so scratch cakes won't have the same texture unless you add in some trans fats to them.
This is when the "scratch vs box" always takes a turn for the worse...when the scratch bakers heavily imply that it takes no skill, less time, and no effort to use a mix than from scratch.
Lissete makes a valid point, she just didn't use the right example. Using a box is parallel to having your basic dry ingredients (flour, sugar, and leavening) pre-mixed for you. That's it.
That's why Box bakers get upset on here...it's not because people are slamming the box mix itself per se, it's when the scratch bakers backhandedly claim box bakers aren't doing the same amount of work or putting in the same care that they do. And I can't say I blame them.
Well, not exactly. From my perspective (a scratch baker) I think they take a turn for the worse when the mix bakers start calling scratch bakers snobs for saying that it takes skill to bake a cake from scratch. Of course it does take skill, just like it takes skill to cook a good steak.
Boxed mixes aren't JUST flour sugar, leavener, etc. They also have the aforementioned hydrogenated fats, artificial flavorings and artificial colors. Plenty of bakers on this thread have said that they can't bake a cake from scratch to save their lives, and I think that we scratch bakers who CAN bake just get tired of being called snobs because we have a specific skill.
Here's a picture I took to use on one of my blog entries...This was to show that if you think cake is "just flour, eggs and butter", this is what you should get. Substitute a boxed mix if that's what you use, the point is the same. 
Well, no, no you don't. You don't the exact amount of work. I'm sorry. I have many more steps in my preparation than a box mix requires.
For my buttermilk cake recipe, I do the following:
.....
Edited to just retain pertinent info. Tired of putting a disclaimer on everything in this sensitive little place.
Jaime, you know I admire you. 
You are the Cake Yin to my Cake Yang. We are the opposties on just about everything!
I don't think anyone is being overly sensetive. But when folks feel like they are being attacked personally, they will respond to it.
You highlight the heart of the debate...it's not about Box vs Scratch, but the ideals and perceptions surrounding the "box". It's not about the ingredients themselves, wether they are pre-sorted or not...but the Romanticized Ideal associated with it.
There's this idea our society has (thanks to almost a decade of 'Julia Child' and 'June Cleaver' mythos imbedded into our collective psyche) of the baker in the kitchen lovingly slaving away at doing everything precice and perfect, putting their personal stamp with every spoonful poured into the batter...and a cake coming out of the oven as everyone oohs and aaahs. It is served on a pretty platter with pretty trimmings and it's all very Normal Rockwellian.
Then there's the mythos of The Box...associated with images of sterile factories and production lines overseen by men in labcoats as mysterious chemicals are funneled into a generic carboard package. A baker gets the box, half-heartedly dumps it in a bowl, throws an egg in, and they're done. Everyone sits around a crumbly slab of sloppily iced cake and sighs and it's all very George Orwellian.
Scratch bakers are grabbing onto the Norman Rockwell ideal and claiming they have sole claim to it. If a baker uses The Box, then they must accept that only The Box ideal can be associated with them. Even as they say they respect a persons decision to use a box, they are only ok with it as long at the one using The Box does not ever call upon any of the Norman Rockwell ideal in relation to their methods of cake baking.
I could easily post a rebuttal showing all the steps and ingredients I go through when I make my Strawberry Creme cake, but it's pointless in the eyes of a "Scratch" baker...all they see is The Box so they will never accept it as valid. That's where the rub lies, and that's why the Scratch Vs Box debate will never end or remain civil for long...the emotional attachment to the romanticised ideals will always rear its ugly head.
(I'm also not sensetive about this topic at all. I find it to be a rather fascinating, but then, I'm a freaking Overthinking Nerd so this is par for the course for me 
)
EDIT: Costumeczar...you just proved my point.
Oi yi. This is tiring, ain't it? Hee hee--overthinking nerd. Yeah, I feel like that too at times. In my head, I just shot back to sitting on that couch outside the competition room for that cake challenge last year and our conversations. That was fun. I will miss you this year! 
And I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post just now. I am not saying a word in rebuttal!! Rock on girl!
EDIT: Costumeczar...you just proved my point.
Not really, I hate Norman Rockwell. 
I'm gonna miss you too this year!! I may have to personally challenge you at next year's battle so you'll be forced to show up 
And I'm glad that you always can see (or try to see) where I come from on my side of things. I think everyone, regardless of how they do it, are awesome bakers so long as they use the most important ingredient of all: Love! 
Thats a good story Deb. I have people drooling over my "ckaes" and they are cake mix, and sometimes I doctor them but not always. I will challenge anyone to make it better. I see no reason for people to be down right insulting about it though, and I do take offense!
OK just got home and I'm trying to catch up but I came across this and had to respond before reading any further.
By "Deb" do you mean me? If you do, may I ask what story? I don't think I told a story so maybe you don't mean me.
SalllyBratt... you have given us almond, chocolate, and butter cake recipes. what is YOUR favorite scratch white cake recipe. or did you post it uner recipes on this site.. tia.. i LOVE ... to try everyones different recipes.. everyone SWEARS by what THEY DO.. HA! DON,T WE ALL?...that is ok.. right?
having said that...if I can't create my own fondant that's better than Fondarific then I will tell my customers it's a store bought fondant because I couldn't create a scratch recipe that tastes as good or works as well.
THAT IS IT EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now replace Fondant, With Docotored recipe!
and Im not sensitve, just stating a point.
I only think people are snobs when then think they are better then someone else..... and when certain things are said that are causing some one to go 
....... you know?
[quote="CeeTee"]
Lissete makes a valid point, she just didn't use the right example. Using a box is parallel to having your basic dry ingredients (flour, sugar, and leavening) pre-mixed for you. That's it. /[quote]
That's a stretch. If it were that simple then mixes wouldn't exist because nobody would need to use them right?
It takes seconds to measure/weigh out dry ingredients so why not just do it then?
The reason is that most people can bake a cake from a mix successfully, but most people cannot bake a cake from scratch successfully.
Reason being....mixes have stabilizers scratch baking doesn't.
That's the difference in the two......it's quite simple actually.
Hey I'm a hobbyist so they get it for free so no one better complain about anything. I can bake from scratch from box, whatever. I can make killer artisan bread and prefer to knead by hand (doesn't make me a snob I just LIKE to feel the dough). I think most people can bake from scratch. It's not hard at all. I don't know why scratch people make it seem like it's a BIG issue. Bread baking isn't hard either. Just follow the recipes, practice a tiny bit then tweak it if you want....Scratch or Box it's really no big deal just as long as you like it, or your customers and it tastes good.
I make my own Vanilla also (tahitian and madagascar) which is terribly simple. Anyone can do it.
Folks it's NOT a big deal.
Ok..I understand scratch bakers believe they work harder than mix bakers. I also understand mix bakers believe they work just as hard as a scratch baker. I personally believe I work just as hard as a scratch baker because of the extended recipes that seem to be just as much and just as complicated as some scratch recipes. I know there will never be a compromise. NO ONE IS GOING TO CHANGE THEIR MINDS HERE!! I was one that opened this whole thing when I replied agreeing to the post about us doing the same amount of work. I am sorry if some scratch bakers didn't like that opinion. After all it is an opinion. It is also an opinion for scratch bakers to say they do more work than a mix baker. As someone said earlier, we are not in competition with each other. Everyone's cakes on here are beautiful and I'm sure taste wonderful. Isn't that all that counts. If we do not agree, and it is obvious that there will be no compromise, I don't see why we are still arguing about it.
Because Ginni, it's the nature of the beast. The beast being a public forum, with thousands of personalities from every corner of the world, time zone, you name it. It may be locked, and that will end this particular thread, but a new one will crop up within a month. Or couple weeks.
Seems that scratch/mix threads happen once a month, and pricing threads practically daily. ((sigh))
Exactly. No one here is going to change their minds about this topic, simply because everyone does what works best for them. Yay! Great! Let's move on!
(as I click the "Stop watching this topic" button...)
ha don't you all just love when someone asks an 'innocent' question with a thorough under tone of judgement ? " I would never!" "I think its cheating clients" "its all artificial" Gah! How about from scratch bakers bake from scratch and from box bake from box? I hope she's heard of the cake mix doctor and is not assuming the cake mixes are actually JUST a mix. She has to know right?
oh I love cake central. and the cake mix doctor. and having the option of baking from scratch and from a doctored mix (with lovely additions with ingredients). And I love knowing whichever I choose clients love them both.
SalllyBratt... you have given us almond, chocolate, and butter cake recipes. what is YOUR favorite scratch white cake recipe. or did you post it uner recipes on this site.. tia.. i LOVE ... to try everyones different recipes.. everyone SWEARS by what THEY DO.. HA! DON,T WE ALL?...that is ok.. right?
I actually don't have a good white cake recipe...just the vanilla cake one. Vanilla, chocolate, almond and lemon are all I've tested so far. I'm really new to this and am still testing recipes and flavours.
If anyone has a tried and true white cake recipe from scratch I'd love to give it a go.
I don't work harder than people who bake from mixes, but I do have a different skill set. Just like I have a different skill set from someone who is a professional drummer (and you don't want to hear me play drums, I think.)
ha don't you all just love when someone asks an 'innocent' question with a thorough under tone of judgement ? " I would never!" "I think its cheating clients" "its all artificial" Gah! How about from scratch bakers bake from scratch and from box bake from box? I hope she's heard of the cake mix doctor and is not assuming the cake mixes are actually JUST a mix. She has to know right?
oh I love cake central. and the cake mix doctor. and having the option of baking from scratch and from a doctored mix (with lovely additions with ingredients). And I love knowing whichever I choose clients love them both.
are you talking about me? If so, you can address me. My name is Sally. HI!
btw...I didn't say any of those things except that I would never sell a cake made from a box. It's a personal choice. I would PERSONALLY feel like I had cheated my clients but that's for me only. I had asked if anyone else would feel that way and I think it's a legitimate question. Please don't put words in my mouth or misconstrue what I said or the manner it was said in just because you've got your back up.
I'm not here to fight with anyone. Really...is there any point?
Oh man....
Have any of y'all seen that Saturday Night Live skit with Justin Timberlake singing about a "(Gift) in a Box"? I have that stuck in my head, but it's now become "Cake From a Box".
Or maybe that old guy from American Idol the other week! "Cake from a box! Cake from a box! Goin' round town sellin cake from a box!"
(...I am so not right in the head this week...)
I don't work harder than people who bake from mixes, but I do have a different skill set. Just like I have a different skill set from someone who is a professional drummer (and you don't want to hear me play drums, I think.)
You just phrased that in a very good way and I completely agree. There are cakes from scratch that I can't get to come out for anything (although I am willing to try). There are also people that I know personally that can't bake a cake to save their life even if I'm there helping them with a box. I don't know why. Its just people with different skills, but we all work equally as hard as each other. Even if another topic pops up in a few weeks, I don't see why there should be an argument.
I think there should be a list posted of topics on here for people to avoid. or make the list with the url's to these posts on high controversial topics. That way, if someone has a question, the list will be posted in the forums for everybody to see. There is no need to post a new topic.
although I'm scared a lot of times that if i ask a question or post a topic that has been beaten over the head a dozen times. Its really hard to look up past topics and find the ones that pertain to what I want.
I think there should be a list posted of topics on here for people to avoid. or make the list with the url's to these posts on high controversial topics. That way, if someone has a question, the list will be posted in the forums for everybody to see. There is no need to post a new topic.
although I'm scared a lot of times that if i ask a question or post a topic that has been beaten over the head a dozen times. Its really hard to look up past topics and find the ones that pertain to what I want.
Don't worry about it, nobody would read the thread about what not to post even if there was one! If you're having trouble looking things up in the search, go to google and do an advanced search. It lets you search for topics and enter cakecentral.com as the website to search. That usually gives me better results than trying to do a search from here directly.
Quote by @%username% on %date%
%body%