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The problem with only offering rainbows and puppy kisses is that it doesn't show the reality of WORK. Not everyone can make it in business, does that mean they shouldn't cake - nope. Does that mean they shouldn't try - nope. But patting them on the head and telling them to go for their dreams does them no more good than the "brutal" gut punch remarks. Business isn't easy, especially a business that includes perishable goods and a revolving inventory. Entering into business before you have any sort of business plan is a bit like offering to perform surgery before going to medical school. It doesn't apply to hobbies or cakes for your kids, business is not for everyone and shouldn't be taken for granted that anyone can be successful without a proper plan or preparations. It's more "brutal" to tell someone to jump into debt and 80+ hour work weeks before they're ready than to tell them - ya ain't ready girl. 7 cakes in your gallery and you think you're frustrated now, you admitted you don't have a plan and have had a failed business before because of no plan - there's way more frustrations coming. A lot of pros don't post because their sick of the drama that comes with this site. Anything other than a big ole fat thumbs up is attacked and made into drama. Waiting for the {hugs} now...
I mean, show me where people are being rude! Show me! Where are people telling a poster they suck, or they can't do it, or they have no talent. I would personally smack anyone who said that to another person. Gah! 
You can say I sugar coat the facts when posting, I thought I was treating people the way I wanted be treated. And I thought that was called respect.
No, sorry... not "respect", but mis-information... in a business envelope.
The TRUTH is not disrespectful. The bakery business truths have been posted her many times but those you know, and have experienced it----
1. You need to do the math- business plans, funding, capital, etc.
2. You need to do the legalities as applied to your situation- legal kitchens, tax filings, permits, etc.
3. You need to know your customer base and who you are "targeting" to sell to. Will they pay your price?
4. You need to know how to bake and decorate.
5. You need to manage your time and/ or employees to have life outside of the kitchen (or not, if you are prepared for that).
(or HIRE the people that will do the jobs posted above) And on, and on as others have thankfully shared....
Disrespectful is calling you stupid, fat, lazy, showing contempt or rudeness. That never happened here!
An oncologist would not be disrespectful if he diagnosed you with stage 4 cancer and said you should "get your affairs in order" (giving you painful, but truthful advise). Sugar coating it to avoid the pain is not helpful. I would NOT want to be treated that way. Those business successes here, that share their painful truths are no different. The highest level of respect they show to those asking questions is telling them the whole truth, and letting that newbie determine for themselves if they plan to and want to jump those 20 business hurdles (not just the first of learning how to smooth a cake).
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I mean, show me where people are being rude! Show me! Where are people telling a poster they suck, or they can't do it, or they have no talent. I would personally smack anyone who said that to another person. Gah!
We ALL know some people have issues and no matter what advice was given, they would find a reason to throw a fit - all in someone else's defense of course.
A
Original message sent by johnson6ofus
No, sorry... not "respect", but mis-information... in a business envelope.
The TRUTH is not disrespectful. The bakery business truths have been posted her many times but those you know, and have experienced it---- 1. You need to do the math- business plans, funding, capital, etc. 2. You need to do the legalities as applied to your situation- legal kitchens, tax filings, permits, etc. 3. You need to know your customer base and who you are "targeting" to sell to. Will they pay your price? 4. You need to know how to bake and decorate. 5. You need to manage your time and/ or employees to have life outside of the kitchen (or not, if you are prepared for that).
(or HIRE the people that will do the jobs posted above) And on, and on as others have thankfully shared....
Disrespectful is calling you stupid, fat, lazy, showing contempt or rudeness. That never happened here!
An oncologist would not be disrespectful if he diagnosed you with stage 4 cancer and said you should "get your affairs in order" ([U]giving you painful, but truthful advise[/U]). Sugar coating it to avoid the pain is not helpful. I would NOT want to be treated that way. Those business successes here, that share their painful truths are no different. [U]The highest level of respect they show to those asking questions is telling them the whole truth[/U], and letting that newbie determine for themselves if they plan to and want to jump those 20 business hurdles (not just the first of learning how to smooth a cake).
Applause! Thank you! Spot on!
thanks AZ...
. Quite the compliment from you!
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A lot of pros don't post because their sick of the drama that comes with this site. Anything other than a big ole fat thumbs up is attacked and made into drama. Waiting for the {hugs} now...
Yeah, I know a bunch of people who have quit posting business advice because of this. Sometimes people don't want to hear reality, they want to hear what they think already. More than once I'll answer something honestly and my response is ignored while the "go for the sparkly things" answers are the ones the person who asked the question sends thanks for. Oh well, that's fine. I always tell my kids that the people who pay attention and take the criticism in and evaluate themselves honestly are the ones who will improve. The people who just want the ego stroking won't get anywhere in the long run.
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You can say I sugar coat the facts when posting, I thought I was treating people the way I wanted be treated. And I thought that was called respect.
People SAY that I sugar coat things, but I don't think that I do. I try to encourage people. Is that sugar coating?
I never told Nancy to jump out and start a business, I told her to take a break and re evaluate her circumstances, not give up, and yes, to dare to dream.
No, sorry... not "respect", but mis-information... in a business envelope.
The TRUTH is not disrespectful. The bakery business truths have been posted her many times but those you know, and have experienced it----
1. You need to do the math- business plans, funding, capital, etc.
2. You need to do the legalities as applied to your situation- legal kitchens, tax filings, permits, etc.
3. You need to know your customer base and who you are "targeting" to sell to. Will they pay your price?
4. You need to know how to bake and decorate.
5. You need to manage your time and/ or employees to have life outside of the kitchen (or not, if you are prepared for that).
(or HIRE the people that will do the jobs posted above) And on, and on as others have thankfully shared...
I have had a cake business and did all those things. And you are right the truth is not disrespectful. Why do some post have to be? Not necessarily on this thread but in general.
Disrespectful is calling you stupid, fat, lazy, showing contempt or rudeness. That never happened here!
I have to disagree with you on that point, it has happened here, maybe not on this thread but on CC. I never said that I saw any blatant rudeness on this thread. It started out with words of encouragement that turned into blunt hard facts, ways to improve cakes skills and what goes into starting a business and so on. So why do my replies have to be associated with sunshine and rainbows, etc. (all things syrupy sweet and happy)?
I'll say it again, I never said opening a business was all happiness and fun. Anyone who believes that IS not being realistic. It's hard work, I know, I've been doing it for someone else for most of my life. If I have to work that hard for someone else's business to be successful do you honestly believe that I would think that starting my own business wouldn't be as hard or harder?
I have 2 jobs and I'm trading them in for one full time job. Will I ever own my own cake shop? I don't know but it's my dream to own one. It's her dream to have one. What's wrong with that? Whats wrong with someone saying with hard work you can make it happen? Many of us on this site share that dream.
So I'm not the one saying I have a business and it's not fun, it's all work and no play, the market is saturated, there is no room for any more cakers, so stop dreaming and get real! Most of us know that we are not going to get rich off of cakes nor be the next top cake designer. If it's so bad why are most of you still doing it. I'd like to believe that somewhere with all the headaches, long hours and hard work, it's rewarding and it's yours.
You might as well tell people to stop shooting for the American dream, which is to own a house with a picket fence, two kids and a dog, because it's just to many people trying to do it. You can tell them but it's not going to stop them from dreaming about it or trying to achieve it.
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An oncologist would not be disrespectful if he diagnosed you with stage 4 cancer and said you should "get your affairs in order" (giving you painful, but truthful advise). Sugar coating it to avoid the pain is not helpful. I would NOT want to be treated that way. Those business successes here, that share their painful truths are no different. The highest level of respect they show to those asking questions is telling them the whole truth, and letting that newbie determine for themselves if they plan to and want to jump those 20 business hurdles (not just the first of learning how to smooth a cake).
With all do respect, if a doctor can tell me I have stage 4 cancer and to get my affairs in order, yes that would be painful and truthful and I would have to accept it but if he went on to tell me that's what I get for living an unhealthy lifestyle I would be offended. Give it to me straight, I'm down with that but when you toss in the snide remarks it becomes a bit hard to take that advice.
There is a big difference the two, it seem like a thin line on here sometimes, just saying......
AWhere are the snide remarks in this thread? I see lively conversation, I see instigatory (sometimes veiled, sometimes blatant) comments from you, and replies to your instigatory remarks that are in the same tone. So,what exactly are you complaining about? People replying in the same tone as you?
Why do you see the worst in everything I post? What tone, can you hear me? I tell you what, if someone else posted exactly what I posted would you still see that same tone?
What you are doing right now can be seen as instigating. I was merely answering johnson6ofus's post that he quoted me in. I don't want to argue with you AZ and I don't feel that any further conversation with you would be conducive to the thread. If you feel that you need to say anything else, I think that it would be best said in a pm.
I will leave you to your lively conversations with other posters. I give up.
Enga, I think you have issues if you have to complain in a thread about other threads and people who may have made posts of which you disapprove and calling people rude and mean when they have not been. Of course you are entitled to your opinion but so is everyone else, and they don't hijack threads like you do.
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I tell you what, if someone else posted exactly what I posted would you still see that same tone? Absolutely, in a heart beat. It's not you, it's what you write, over and over and over.
What you are doing right now can be seen as instigating. I was merely answering johnson6ofus's post that he quoted me in. Oh, so we're only discussing the current thread now, when it's convenient for your argument? Other replies and threads are off limits now? Gotcha.
I don't want to argue with you AZ and I don't feel that any further conversation with you would be conducive to the thread. If you feel that you need to say anything else, I think that it would be best said in a pm. Nope. There's nothing more to it than what I've expressed. No need for analytical back and forth discussion.
I will leave you to your lively conversations with other posters. I give up. Promise?
AI don't want to pile on. But can I just give you examples of what I do now?
I haven't been out in 3 months. Meaning a night on the town.
I haven't seen my sister, or god daughter in 2 months
Last year I worked on Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years
I'm now working close to 60 hrs a week, I counted.
I missed my nieces and nephews a getting baptized because I had a 5 tier cake I was doing.
I could not go on vacation to see my grandfather because I was booked, he's very ill now.
Now I could have made some different choices here. But I'm a business owner. And I'm what some consider to be "successful" this is what it takes man. And I have a business mNager! So I'm not even doing all of this alone. Marketing, accounting, shopping, etc etc.
I suggest you REALLY think about if you want to give your life up for this. Do you want to make cakes that bad? Maybe you do.
*^A word about skill. You've got to invest in yourself. That means you have to bake cakes that won't always be eaten. You must practice icing cakes. You must practice covering on fondant. You must do it over and over and over and over until you are good. And this will often be thousands of dollars later. I have the cakes away when I could, but sometimes they got thrown out. It sounds like a pain but it's worth it to be confident in your skills when it's show time
AAnd just for kicks lol I no longer have time to get my hair done every 2 weeks. And I do my own manicures now. It is REAL out here hahaha.
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I don't want to pile on. But can I just give you examples of what I do now?
I haven't been out in 3 months. Meaning a night on the town.
I haven't seen my sister, or god daughter in 2 months
Last year I worked on Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years
I'm now working close to 60 hrs a week, I counted.
I missed my nieces and nephews a getting baptized because I had a 5 tier cake I was doing.
I could not go on vacation to see my grandfather because I was booked, he's very ill now.
*^A word about skill. You've got to invest in yourself. That means you have to bake cakes that won't always be eaten. You must practice icing cakes. You must practice covering on fondant. You must do it over and over and over and over until you are good. And this will often be thousands of dollars later. I have the cakes away when I could, but sometimes they got thrown out. It sounds like a pain but it's worth it to be confident in your skills when it's show time
Well said. I'm sorry you are missing out on time with your grandfather. And I also know the inner pull you felt that told you you couldn't leave a client in the lurch because you know how golden your reputation is and will do anything to keep it shining. We don't cancel on people on Friday night and leave them begging for someone on a Facebook buy/sell/trade page for a cake the next day. (How many times have you received a call like that? More than you count I bet.) I have nearly cried at times because I couldn't take my son to the park on Saturday morning (AGAIN). Then remembered, hey! Manage your time better Jamie, manage your time better. It's not anyone's fault that I'm missing anything, I chose this. (Ill relatives do not apply to that little snippet, can't predict that. :( ) Still complain about it occasionally, but who doesn't about their job? It's a job. Not a race to see who can make the prettiest dummies and get the most likes on Facebook and make everyone think you're super successful. It's not about styling a photo shoot to get on a blog (and look super successful), and it's not about telling strangers on the interwebs that they should follow their dreams and if their cakes are pretty enough, they'll be an overnight sensation. It's a job. But this job means you handle everything. There is no manager to run to when someone gets upset and you don't know what to say to make it better. I happen to like my job most times, in fact I'm editing photos for my first tutorial ever, and I'm pretty stoked! I was supposed to take this weekend off from cakes, but here I am.....working...lol.
Skill: thank you for mentioning that. That's exactly what I did for a looooooong time before I started selling. I stalked the forums here, and latched on to the smartest sounding people I could find, after checking out their businesses and verifying that their walk matched their talk. I paid attention to how they replied to please for help about disasters, and how to figure who was responsible. I asked questions and hoped they would reply. I didn't adopt an "oh well, it was perfect when you left with it, end of story" attitude. I looked over example contracts and walked them across the street to my attorney neighbor and we went over it together. I learned why retainers were important, and why making them non refundable was the proper way to handle them. I learned that cake was cake, and pricing the same cake differently for the occasion it was for was ridiculous (in most cases). I learned that giving a customer a sketch without a retainer was a no no. I asked a local decorator who was getting ready to move what she knew about the local venues-and got some information that actually saved me one day, that I would never had thought of to ask before I drove down there. I decorated cakes. I decorated dummies. I spent money. LOTS of money. I gave away cake to co workers when I still had that job. I made a few for friends, for free. Rinse and repeat....and then one day I launched my website. And the cakes were full price from day one. The only major change since day one, was the initial $75 minimum order has evolved to $150 minimum order. I decided fairly early on I wasn't going to cater to champagne tastes with beer budgets.
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And just for kicks lol I no longer have time to get my hair done every 2 weeks. And I do my own manicures now. It is REAL out here hahaha.
Shoot, the last time I had my hair done was years ago! I just get a nice trim and indulge in the part where they wash your hair. The stylist must have long scratchy fingernails. I probably enjoy that a little too much. :D :D I think my pony tail with slightly wavy fly aways is totally chic. And a whaticure??? :D
A
Original message sent by morganchampagne
I don't want to pile on. But can I just give you examples of what I do now?
I haven't been out in 3 months. Meaning a night on the town.
I haven't seen my sister, or god daughter in 2 months
Last year I worked on Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Years
I'm now working close to 60 hrs a week, I counted.
I missed my nieces and nephews a getting baptized because I had a 5 tier cake I was doing.
I could not go on vacation to see my grandfather because I was booked, he's very ill now.
Now I could have made some different choices here. But I'm a business owner. And I'm what some consider to be "successful" this is what it takes man. And I have a business mNager! So I'm not even doing all of this alone. Marketing, accounting, shopping, etc etc.
I suggest you REALLY think about if you want to give your life up for this. Do you want to make cakes that bad?
Where did you get a copy of my schedule? :smile:
I think where "rookies" and "newbies" miss the point on the notion that they can "follow their dreams" and "go for it" is that ALL those jobs are still done, even with only ONE cake, just smaller scale. And to afford all the legalities and nonsense, the pay for ONE cake won't cut it.
You guys work 60+ hour weeks not because you want to, but because that's what makes success. One cake pays the electric, one cake pays the legal, one cake pays the water, one cake pays the___ and only the 25th cake pays your salary. Economy of scale.
Yes, please DREAM... but temper that with a large dose of reality and planning.
At last, please be realistic on what others will pay for your "art". Even I have made the cake that people raved about. Everyone wanted to "buy" one my friend reports. My answer, "Yeah. And they want to pay me $50 WHOLE dollars for what cost me $60 in supplies and three days' time. No thanks." And again, by the way, I am NOT that good. See previous posts.
I don't get on here to post very often anymore, the amount of nit-picking drives me crazy and makes me irritable. I like to be a pleasant person, so I just don't log on. :) I had a free morning that I spent in my garden deadheading my flowers - cake business is a lot like tending a garden. You have to put in so much prep work in the beginning to reap the rewards down the line. If you put off business plans and recipe research and practicing the basics of leveling, stacking, smoothing every cake - your business is going to be full of weedy clients or last minute cake disasters. This thread is a great example of business people offering advice to someone who is just starting out. There were no snide remarks, and whether it's your personal style or not - great advice was given. I've been very fortunate to get to know some of the great pros on here at a personal level and I can tell you first hand that AZ is one of the first people to jump in and answer questions or give advice on techniques. I am personally so thankful for all the advice from pros (now I get to call them friends.) I didn't launch my website until it had been looked over and approved by at least 10 professionals, including which cakes to put in my gallery. And that gallery was small at first! I started my business last June and it was slooooow going until around December. But I really worked at it - marketing myself, building my reputation as a dependable professional and getting my name out there. If I didn't have an order, I made a cake to practice new techniques. I have a big family, so guess who got some pretty elaborate "just because" cakes - and yes, it was expensive - that is the cost of starting up a business. Every cake that went out my door was the best I could provide for my customers, no shortcuts or good enoughs or I guess I'll do better next time. I didn't make excuses if something wasn't perfect, I did again until it was, then I moved onto the next step. When you are trying to build a client base, every cake is your entire reputation. That has set me apart in my area -along with not pigeon-holing myself into only one thing. I branched out to weddings and then sculpted cakes and now hand painting and wafer paper. It's a constant evolution of what I can offer that is a little different than the every day norm. And that has started to pay off and define my business -- that's where pushing yourself to do the hard work and all that preparation counts.
No one is telling anyone to not pursue their passion, but passion doesn't always make for a good business. IF you want to combine your passion with business, you need to put your serious hat on, take a look at the flaws that are pointed out to you and figure out if you can fix them...then do it, don't make excuses, figure out a way to do it. It's bad business to jump in when every cake isn't your best work every time - that will become your reputation. If you love color - great! But save it for your own personal cakes - most clients over the age of 13 who are paying a higher price point don't enjoy overly colorful or cluttered work. The colorful designers that were mentioned have an overall plan for their cake that flows. Just like you have to have a business plan, you need to have a plan for each cake. Sketch it out if you know you tend to overdo it - really look at the whole design before you start just adding things on. It's not fair to your clients to showcase your best work if you can't produce it every time and if you're not getting the feedback you want, maybe you're not offering the things that strike the majority of people. Take the time to do the prep work - it's not fun, but neither is working your hind end off just to come to the realization months later you worked for less than minimum wage and are so tired you can't see straight. Give your business the best start possible to lessen the number of bumps in the road that WILL come. Not if, but when - beacuse business isn't easy so you need to set yourself up for success from the beginning. Logging off again to enjoy my first cakeless weekend in 6 months. 
AHaha!! [@]costumeczar[/@] I always chuckle when people are thinking about going into this because it's "fun" hmm. Okay.
[@]AZCouture[/@] thank you for the well wishes. Yes, time management is key..but it doesn't always happen that way. But like you said, the reputation is EVERYTHING. So I buck up and make it work.
To everyone else, I'm definitely not trying to tell you not to do it. Just be aware what this takes that's all. As stated above, dream but temper that with reality.
Enga, I think you have issues if you have to complain in a thread about other threads and people who may have made posts of which you disapprove and calling people rude and mean when they have not been.Of course you are entitled to your opinion but so is everyone else, and they don't hijack threads like you do.
Well pastrypet, I really think that you need to go back and read the thread but I cant tell you what to do nor how to interpret it. I saw a lot of hijacking, as you call it in this thread but I'm in no position to tell people what they can and cant post. I leave that to the Moderators. Like you said,"Of course you are entitled to your opinion but so is everyone else."
If you want to be professional, you have to present yourself as professional and stop marketing to friends and family.
First see if you can be licensed to bake out of your home. If so, go after the clients who have a big budget: brides.
I say your baking/icing entitles you to 3.50 per serving if it's delicious scratch cake, fillings, and SMBC. Any decoration is gravy. Maybe do some rough iced cakes with fresh flowers--easy--and work on your art.
I started getting really serious by contracting to do a bridal show and making display cakes that are professional, and a professional display, business cards, logo, website, marketing materials, etc. Fake it til you become it. Before that I was at a crossroads, like you--I have to do this whole hog, or give it up entirely. When I thought about giving it up, I was so sad. I knew I had what people wanted and what wasn't widely available. There is not enough good cake out in the world--I'm spreading the gospel of good cake. I always choose marketing opportunities that allow people to taste the cake. Sells itself!
Stop giving away and discounting cake. It only brings more clients who want great cake--cheap. If you don't believe your cake's worth more, no one else will.
Good luck!
Morning!
I was just re-reading this thread. I have been making some cakes for fun, but since I've gone back to teaching, I haven't had a lot of time to practice. I was thankful for all of the advice - the blunt assessments and the pats on the back. Honestly, if I hadn't gotten a few pats on the back, I would have never come back.
I have had businesses before. I didn't keep them because I also worked full time but two of the three were successful. i just couldnt find a manager to run them while I was working who was worth the money and who wouldn't steal from me. To those who say I need to work hard, that's what I do. In the last ten years, I don't think I've put in less than a 70 hour week. In addition to my own businesses, I had started and run a dog rescue for 5 years, and learned pottery and metalsmithing. At this point, I'm at a crossroads. I need to decide how I want to spend my time before retirement - getting a business plan ready for a cake business or a jewelry business. I love making both, so I hate that I have to choose, but it seems like I do, because I only have evenings and weekends to work now.
For me, it's a time of contemplation. But I thought this thread was worthwhile for others who were in my shoes. I am in love with making cakes and feeding people - one of my old businesses was a small coffee shop with baked goods (I didn't make them.) I have an Itaiian family and my great- grandparents had one of the most successful restaurants in NYC during Prohibition, so it's in my blood (even though I was adopted.) :) I make what people have called the best tasting cakes they have ever had - thanks to a recipe or two I bought or found on here. And I love it. Will that work ethic and love make a business? I could start out worse, that's for sure.
Lots of good advice to think about again. Thank you all!
Nancy
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