This is the best thread I've read here in a long time Now someone will come along and pick a fight with Jason for being a know-it-all ( I don't think your a know-it-all Jason, you just seem to have a fan club who likes to follow you around here and do that) and some of the more vocal legal bakers will flip out about illegal home bakers being the devil and totally ruin our fun

Jason's idea sounds good but I would be worried that anoyone who wasn't a legal baker would get the cold shoulder from anyone who was legal. Almost like they are sub-par because they aren't legal yet. Maybe they should just put down that they are Amish bakers since those guys seem to get a pass

I think the Amish is partially why PA is easy on home bakers.

I was recently at an Amish home though for a dinner (it was like something the lady does on the side, serves private dinners, kinda cool) and she actually had a food certificate hanging on the wall in her basement, lit by candles and one propane lamp.

I totally understand both sides of the situation which is why I try to give the poster the benefit of the doubt as to their legal status. I baked for friends and via word of mouth for a little while before I was brave enough to actually get licensing and insurance and know I'd get enough orders in to pay for my expenses. My business has evolved VERY slowly. It didn't happen overnight.

I try to just figure the poster is going to do the right thing, and if not, that's between them and their state (and their conscience and God) and its not for me to blow the whistle on them. There's plenty of information about licensing all over this website. I think this website is what first drew my attention to licensing, several years ago...and it wasn't directly in reply to anything I said, but the information is just here, in many places.

That's why I say really, we don't need to beat the horse in EVERY thread. The "legal states" sticky is in plain view to everyone.

I don't post on these forums very often, but this thread really made me smile (and laugh, a lot)! As a hobby baker who didn't know any better turned into a cottage food baker (well, as soon as Florida gets their act together and we can find out what to actually DO to be legal) - I guess I should be an "Almost Legal" baker. There should be a category for that, too!

now for a more serious note: all this talk of licensing and insurance got me to ruminatin' (that's how we talk in the south).

A license doesn't mean a kitchen is going to be sanitary...it's a overconscientious baker that guarantees that. A license won't protect you from lawsuits if you getting sued if through your negligence someone gets sick (make potato salad from friends and serve it to them without proper refrigeration and believe me they can sue...licensed or not) that's what you need insurance for. A license won't guarantee that a kitchen will be regularly inspected...just wait and see how state budget cuts affect that routine.

No private person can sue you simply for not having a business license or permit... that's not a private cause of action.

The state and/or local licensing agency can shut you down and perhaps even levy fine but only if it's provided for by the local ordinances or state legislature. No license/permit is not a criminal offence and scofflaws are not going to prison or be shot at down.

Licenses and permits do bring revenue to the state as does all businesses. But don't confuse the weekend hobbiest with the commercial baker. Even here in South Carolina, you don't need a license if you only bake on weekends, don't advertise and only to friends and neighbours. Now I have a lot of friends and neighbours and I get my business by word of mouth amongst those friends and neighbours. Seeings as how the nearest commercial bakery is over 60 miles away, my little village and all the surrounding villages have lots of old ladies who bake cakes for weddings and other celebrations. And none of us are going to jail.

ps Kitagrl...I liked your words better but signatures are limited to 255 words.

I actually started baking in South Carolina! Wow so I was legal all that time and didn't know it. haha.

I think it depends very widely on the state which is another reason people shouldn't be so quick to jump on an unknown poster.

IMO the main reason to be licensed (other than avoiding the risk of being fined and shut down by the health dept) is so you can get insurance coverage, I doubt you would be able to get liability insurance from a reputable underwriter if you are not operating legally.

You are correct that no one will go to jail or face criminal charges for selling baked goods without a license, but personally I would be nervous if my business could be shut down at a moment's notice, leaving my customers without cakes.

Sounds like that's more lack of enforcement than the lifting of a legal requirement. I don't really have a problem with illegal bakers who don't advertise, as long as they are informed enough to know that they are operating illegally.

We should add Cake Police to the to the options with licensed baker, hobbiest blah blah blah

wOW - i missed so much whilst i was sleeping -

The whole reason for me starting this thread was because i was curious as to how *some* knew that some CC's wouldn't/couldn't be legal - thus i thought there must have beeen a list.

What does Irkkkk me is when i see those same questions being asked - and yet the CCer is from Ireland - France - even over here in Australia.

I never ask the "are you legal" questions for the simple fact that unless the particular CCer lives smack bang next door to me - i wouldn't have a clue as to what guidelines they should be following.
And occassionally when some one does ask about cake sizing - and then they get the "are you legal" sentance thrown at them - they never come back so they must just walk away with head down and tail between their legs thinking ... "shezzzzz, that was toooo hard - won't go there again"

Jason - IMO i just don't see the need for the "are you legal" to be asked everytine some one has a question regarding a Cake.
Honestly - its getting very old - and indeed - you ard a few others are coming across as the Cake Police....perhaps the questions could be knocked down a bit - you think?

Yes, yes, i know there are other questions and answers that are "old" but i am just speaking about these legal questions in this thread.

I think the two links you put up regarding people loosing their homes was a bit - i mean seriously - anyone could talk about we knew a girl who knew a girl who knew a girl - who knew a girl - who knew a boy who made a cake and then lost his house....whether i believe that or not is for me to decide............................. reminds me of the game of Chinese Whispers.


Sometimes a CCer just wants a simple question answered - nothing more nothing less -


Bluehue

Sometimes a CCer just wants a simple question answered - nothing more nothing less -


Bluehue[/quote]

oh by the way I helped my friend paint her house over the weekend.
She paid me $50 and reimbursed me for the 2 paint brushes I bought.
I'm not licenesed or insured to paint homes.

I'm a bad bad girl.

Now I understand that asking every poster if they're legal is tedious and over the top, but I think that if someone posts in the Cake Business Forum, they are opening themselves up to that question. No one needs to berate anyone about their status, but I think the information is pertinent in that Forum.

I know that threads have been bouncing around, so that can be a bit tricky. It would be nice if the Mods would not only PM the OP about a thread being moved, but make a remark in the thread so we're aware of where it started.

Just my thoughts...

OK, so when someone says, "What's the price....?", we all know they are "selling", or thinking of selling.....

My kid sells/ restores junk cars. Having a "clear title" (that is--- clear business credentials) raises the price. Much in the same way that area affects price--- rent in Manhattan is more than rent in the outskirts of Nowhereville. "Under the table/ radar" pricing is often different than "outta my CharmCity storefront" pricing. So a "where and under what circumstances are you selling" question DEFINITELY affects the price. That does NOT seem out of line... to me.

I am one former "ignorant" lurker that learned TONS about the requirements from "the cake police" and if I ever (HA!) go that way, I know and appreciate the requirements. Maybe the solution is a "cake police" sticky that all police cadets can post to and then refer to, "check this link for legalities so I feel better that you protect your a$$ets." when they feel the OP might needs a heads up. Honestly, I WOULD want that info, and I am not insulted by the cake cadets pointing me that way.

I tell my kids, you can speed, but you know the potential consequences. Make you own informed choice.

We all share here to help others, and learn from others so why is some information "bad"? Yes, some are passionate about it--- even anal, but I too, feel that it is really important to share.

Personally I really couldn't care less whether anyone on here is legal and insured - how would that be anyone else's concern?
It's an individual's own responsibility to ensure they're doing the right thing, OR to accept the risks if they're not.

CC has changed so much since I have been here that I don't even respond to most posts. Bluehue, there is a list of the states but the laws vary by city/county. You do bring up a good point though.

Personally, I could care less whether or not what yoshi from north dakota was doing is illegal. Your not hurting me in any way. I love cake, you love cake, lets just be friends. When I first joined cc it was a helpful website. If I wanted someone to interrogate me I would have stayed on active duty. It's been asked in EVERY forum. Even the lounge, really???

First it was the religion arguments, then the politics. Then came the crazies with fake profiles, a lot of stuff in between and now "are you legit, cuz I care". I miss my old cc friends.

How wonderful - i am seeing CCers that i have never seen before - and some who joined long ago - Don't go - don't stay at the edge of our screens where we can't see you - Stay - you are probably the ones who have all that wonderful knowledge that so many Newbies are looking and searching for.

Polotics and Religion - Nope, i don't add a cup of them to my Batter. -

So as the song goes -
oh won't you stayyyyy - just a little bit longerrrrrr.

Bluehue

I was saying in another post I would hate to see this site because the store front vs home bakers. At the same time I would hate to see the site become legal vs illegal. Or any one sided vs the other sided. That totally gets away from the whole point of the website.

I have no problem with people adding a disclaimer to a post, I will occasionally do it myself. But the constant asking does get old. I completely understand wanting to educate people, and I do totally agree that there are people that do not have a clue that it could be illegal to bake out of your home. But I do think it could be narrowed down to a simple statement that doesn't involve questioning people over and over in posts. Or making a big deal out of it and refusing to answer the question. Or lecturing them for not being. Sometimes we all just need to move on.

At the end of the day, what anyone does in their personal life is their business. Yes we could all argue that what others do effects us, but honestly it doesn't matter to me if a person across the country is selling a cake out of the 'underground cake biz' from their home or their health department inspected kitchen or anywhere else for that matter. Their life, their choice and their consequences, not mine.

I can't remember seeing the "are you legal?" question in any post other than one related to pricing, venues, or other such "business" stuff. It's usually when someone comes on and posts "Hi! Just did my first Wilton class and I loooove cake decorating! I'm going to do a wedding cake this weekend, and I'm sure I'll be on here asking lots of questions, but first how much do I charge?????" Ugh.

The other thing is, many people don't know it's illegal, they just start charging. Many people on here have said "my Wilton teacher said costx3" in fact my own Wilton teacher told us to go ahead and start charging, it was legal. Well it's not!! I know Wilton instructors aren't supposed to say those things, but I didn't know that at the time.

Some people are very surprised when they find out they are illegal.

@Blue:
If there are so many offending threads I'm surprised you didn't at least link one, this sounds like a straw man argument to me.

No one is blaming the mods, but it would be easier for everyone if business-related threads would stay in the business forum. Some moderation decisions lately regarding thread placement have been puzzling to say the least.

Regarding pictures of my creations -- I don't decorate cakes, I run the business. Not sure how that is relevant to this thread, since I typically stick to business-related threads.

I agree that it seems like the cake police are out in force, but I must say that we are seeing more and more questions like "I did 2 Wilton classes and I am selling 3 cakes this month. How much should I charge? How do I stack the cake and do you have a recipe I can use?" every day.

Frankly some of posts I've seen imply that their business practices are not up to what I would consider professional standards (I'm not trying to insult anyone here so please don't be offended!). My point is that some people who have only been baking and decorating for a short time may not be familiar with what is required for business to sell cakes in their state. I would rather they find out on one of these forums than by reading a news item describing a whole wedding full of people becoming ill or a business shut down for non-compliance.

When it comes to people serving other people, more information is always better than less. I have learned a great deal on the forums in CC even when some of the posters have gone off-topic at times, and not just regarding legality. If we see a post that bugs us we should just ignore it and move on. Commenting simply draws so many more negative posts which take things even more off track.

I come here to share and learn. If I stop learning I might as well stop living.

I certainly agree that some threads may need information if the business practices seem unprofessional or if a cake is truly shoddy or if something is off...I'm not saying we shouldn't be honest...I'm just saying that if a person is asking a question about serving amounts for a wedding or something it doesn't mean you have to make sure they are licensed before you answer the question.

What eats at me is the new-to-cake decorating people that are excited about something they love, find a website where there are people who understand dreaming about cake just to be treated like a 3 year old when they ask a "newbie" question. What person on here picked up a piping bag and a kitchenaid and knocked out a masterpiece? If their questions annoy you, don't look at them. You know by the subject line what kind of question it is.
It isn't fair to discourage a new person or make them feel like they are going to jail or be fined if they make a baby shower cake for their sister. If they ask, am I legal answer it if you know or better yet send them to their local HD. If they are asking am I legal? they are wanting to know and they are wanting to be sure they are doing it all correctly. If they don't ask they would have to be blind on this site to not find all the posts which point out the legalities. They probably do know whether they are legal or not. Let's let this site be what it should be.

Ok, I'm hoppin off my soap box now. I love parts of this site but other parts just make me wanna never come back. I love cake. I do not love arguing business law. I'm going to culinary school not law school.

We could come up with "what if" here all day...I'm speaking generally, threads over the course of the past two years. Not specifics.