How To Handle This Question Correctly...
Business By cakemeasIam Updated 14 Nov 2009 , 1:51am by CakestyleIN
The double standard my dear unstoned Cake Buddy is that those of us who use cake mix in our product and use it as an ingredient have been told that it is lying to say for example we use 'pre-measured' ingredients.
I still say stuff like that 'cause I don't agree. Euphemisms are our friend.
We are told that using euphemisms to skirt the cake mix issue is baaaahhhd and wrohhhng, deceitful.
We are told why beat around the bush. We are told Don't Lie. arrrgggghhhh
Just say Yes! It doesn't matter if we loose the sale and divide our market.
We are told there is no stigma--Wonder why a fairly new Cake Buddy started a post today stating she felt guilty about using cake mix??? Wonder why this comes up consistently. Because it is a psychological thread running through us.
Lists of ingredients must be complete but by God people who use box mixes should tattoo it on their foreheads and chant I bake from a box I bake from a box at their consults which are dimly lit with candles and crystals--and if they're just cheap glass and not real crystals we better tatto that on our other forehead and further chant--they're not Swarovsky they're not Swarovsky.
But I think if using cake mix as an ingredient renders the product unscratch then surely adding full grown, ripe from the marshmallow tree marshmallows don't-even-add-water-to-it marshmallows to make fondant makes it un-scratch in the purist sense.
One would need to bloom one's gelatin to call it scratch yes?
Use of convenience products verboton in 'scratch' 
Not even one stone thrown--just a bag of jet puffed multi colored juicy marshmallows.
(((big scratchy hug)))
Yes or no. That simple.
If you bake from a mix and are not proud of your product...change it.
I couldn't care less if everyone in town knows I bake from a mix (actually some are mix, some are doctored, and some are scratch). I just purchased about 50 DH mixes today and I'd leave them right there on my countertop in plain view if they wouldn't be in my way.
I do get brides who ask me at a tasting whether or not I bake from scratch. My answer: "RV, carrot, and pound cakes are all scratch; vanilla, almond, marble, and yellow are all dr'd mixes; chocolate is an undoctored mix." They say, "Oh ok, give me one tier in almond, one tier in lemon pound, and one tier in chocoalte." They don't care. If they do, they can go down the street to someone else because I'm not changing my recipes for one customer.
There are 25,000 people in my county and my phone rings off the hook for cakes most days. Whatever it is, it must be working.
One would need to bloom one's gelatin to call it scratch yes?
:
I bloomed my gelatin just this morning, and it felt sooo gooood 
(No, seriously, I really did, I was making fondant.)
No, you have to go and take the hoof and scrape it first to be able to call your gelatin from scratch.
Jammi-
and K8 - you are always a cake hero!
Lou, I spit salad right outta my mouth after reading that.... too funny!
wow! i've only been frequenting cc for a couple of months and wasn't aware of this controversy.
i grew up with scratch and enjoy the process. i love to bake! decorating is a much bigger challenge for me.
i tried a doctored mix and it was awful but i'm fairly sure it was my fault.
after reading this thread, my curiosity has been piqued so i'm going to give the doctored mix another try.
i know i'm going out on a limb here and might be opening another can of worms but about the penguins. ok they are funny in beach wear but a duck is just as funny stark naked. ducks are the funniest animals ever. my favorite jokes include ducks.
yeah, i said it.
oh yeah!
A duck walks into a pet store and says to the clerk, Got any duck food?
No, says the clerk, we only sell dog food and cat food.
OK, says the duck and walks out.
The next day the duck walks in the store and says, Uh, got any duck food?
The clerk once again replies, No, like I told you, we only sell cat food and dog food.
OK, says the duck and walks out.
The next day the duck walks in the store and says, Uh, got any duck food?
The clerk says, Hey look, I told you two times already that we only sell cat food and dog food!
OK, says the duck and walks out.
The next day the duck walks in the store and says, Uh, got any duck food?
This time the clerk yells, We dont sell any duck food and if you come in here one more time asking, I am going to nail your little webbed feet to the ground!
OK, says the duck and walks out.
The next day the duck walks in the store and says, Uh, got any nails?
No, says the confused clerk.
Then the duck says, Got any duck food?
i should point out that both birds waddle but the duck makes a much funnier noise. also when a duck bends over and wiggles its tail, hilarity ensues.
Wow wee...I just read all of this.
I use doctored cake mixes - I use real butter and buttermilk and extra large eggs...people RAVE about my cakes. Cake mixes (always Betty Crocker) work for me. My cake friend used extended cake mixes and adds sugar, flour, etc. Her cakes are amazing.
I don't remember any bride actually asking me if the cakes were scratch or mix. I have been asked if I ever froze my cakes or how far in advance did I make them.
Everyone has to answer as they are comfortable revealing. If you don't want to tell someone it is not scratch - don't. I guarantee you, if you walk into KFC and ask for the exact 11 herbs and spices that the Colonel uses you will be shown the door. In computers we used to call it "proprietary". (I used to be the director of a computer manufacturing company) My grandma called it "you don't have to tell everything you know" and "if you said everything you thought you could be hung for it". (that was on holding your tongue!)
Just because someone asks you doesn't mean you have to answer. If they insist on the answer - insist they get another baker. Some people have recipes they wouldn't share with ANYONE!
I do not lie to people, but that doesn't mean I have to tell them everything I know either. Some things ARE trade secrets. Ask KFC and Coca-Cola. Lots of companies fry chicken and make colas - but not the same way KFC and Coca-Cola do. Some secretary to the top guy I believe at Pepsi was arrested for selling trade secrets recently.
Just because you are a baker doesn't mean you can't have your own trade secret! And just because they ask, doesn't mean you have to answer.
JMHO
Just because someone asks you doesn't mean you have to answer. If they insist on the answer - insist they get another baker. Some people have recipes they wouldn't share with ANYONE!
I do not lie to people, but that doesn't mean I have to tell them everything I know either. Some things ARE trade secrets. Ask KFC and Coca-Cola. Lots of companies fry chicken and make colas - but not the same way KFC and Coca-Cola do. Some secretary to the top guy I believe at Pepsi was arrested for selling trade secrets recently.
Just because you are a baker doesn't mean you can't have your own trade secret! And just because they ask, doesn't mean you have to answer.
JMHO
Nobody's talking about giving someone your recipe. That's the trade secret/proprietary information. If someone asks about whether you use cake mix or not, it's a yes or no answer. Why they're asking is irrelevant. If someone asks you have to tell them the truth, it's called false advertising if you tell them one thing and you sell them something else.
I've been following this thread and I must say,
it will never end b/c no one is going to say one side is right or wrong. Hopefully the op will do whatever works for her and makes her feel good about it in the end. Hopefully all of you talented cake decorators and bakers (doctored, scratch, straight from the box to the oven) are continuing to do your thing so I can keep looking and faving!
Here's some scintillating reading...especially the part about omitting information http://www.bit.ly/4e08hv
I do get brides who ask me at a tasting whether or not I bake from scratch. My answer: "RV, carrot, and pound cakes are all scratch; vanilla, almond, marble, and yellow are all dr'd mixes; chocolate is an undoctored mix." They say, "Oh ok, give me one tier in almond, one tier in lemon pound, and one tier in chocoalte." They don't care. If they do, they can go down the street to someone else because I'm not changing my recipes for one customer.
And that right there is, I believe, the answer and attitude that needs to be adopted by everyone. Tell the truth, plain and simple, be proud of your product, and quit worrying (and arguing!!) about it.
The double standard my dear unstoned Cake Buddy is that those of us who use cake mix in our product and use it as an ingredient have been told that it is lying to say for example we use 'pre-measured' ingredients.
I still say stuff like that 'cause I don't agree. Euphemisms are our friend.
We are told that using euphemisms to skirt the cake mix issue is baaaahhhd and wrohhhng, deceitful.
We are told why beat around the bush. We are told Don't Lie. arrrgggghhhh
Just say Yes! It doesn't matter if we loose the sale and divide our market.
We are told there is no stigma--Wonder why a fairly new Cake Buddy started a post today stating she felt guilty about using cake mix??? Wonder why this comes up consistently. Because it is a psychological thread running through us.
Lists of ingredients must be complete but by God people who use box mixes should tattoo it on their foreheads and chant I bake from a box I bake from a box at their consults which are dimly lit with candles and crystals--and if they're just cheap glass and not real crystals we better tatto that on our other forehead and further chant--they're not Swarovsky they're not Swarovsky.
But I think if using cake mix as an ingredient renders the product unscratch then surely adding full grown, ripe from the marshmallow tree marshmallows don't-even-add-water-to-it marshmallows to make fondant makes it un-scratch in the purist sense.
One would need to bloom one's gelatin to call it scratch yes?
Use of convenience products verboton in 'scratch'
Not even one stone thrown--just a bag of jet puffed multi colored juicy marshmallows.
(((big scratchy hug)))
Since I am a LEGAL LICENSED HOME BUSINESS I DON'T have the luxury of "LYING" "SKIRTING" or "HANDLING" the question when asked what my ingredients include.
BY LAW I am REQUIRED to FULLY disclose every ingredient in my products...BY LAW I am even REQUIRED to provide a detailed ingredient list to the client.
It is irresponsible to advise another member here to only tell "part of the truth" or to say it's a "trade secret"...........not only is it irresponsible to take that advice, it may be breaking your local HD laws.
Remember those pesky things called laws? Yeah.....I follow them.
The question posed to me by I believe Loucinda was "so all of you "SCRATCH" bakers what do you tell your client if you buy pre-made fondant?"
I MAKE my fondant which is mmf with bagged marshmallows and my clients are told that and I have no problem telling them that.
So why do people have a problem saying "I start with a mix"?
I WOULD have a problem lying to my client.....obviously you don't and that's what separates us I guess.
I've said it before and I'll say it again and yes you can quote me......IF scratch baking were easy and didn't require any skill then everyone would be able to do it successfully. In fact it is NOT easy and it DOES require skill.
There is nothing wrong with Collette Peter's and Sylvia Weinstock's recipes they're perfect....it's the person making them incorrectly that screws them up......NOT the recipe.
So OP check with your local HD and ask if you have to list your ingredients to your clients....the answer they give you may answer your own opening question.
Just because someone asks you doesn't mean you have to answer. If they insist on the answer - insist they get another baker. Some people have recipes they wouldn't share with ANYONE!JMHO
Maybe in TX you don't but in MA where I am in my county I DO have to tell them.....my recipes are in the hands of the HD AND my clients have a right to my list of ingredients.
Don't advise others of things you yourself don't know.....every state, city and county has different laws.
How does posting consumer law bring resolution here.
Well actually it does point out the legalism invovled in this hard line approach. Yes or no, black or white, no wiggle room, no scratch cake mix for you!
More often than not, our vanilla is a mix, our flour is a mix, using cake mix as an ingredient with additional flour and sugar is indeed a pre-measured ingredient.
It goes both ways, CakeBuddy--if someone says do you bake from scratch or a mix and you say a mix--they find out you added flour and sugar and sour cream they'd be suing, by your hard unrelenting legalistic detemination because you did not use only 'a mix'.
It is perfectly appropriate to use the term 'pre-measured ingredients' for doctored mixes. And the full disclosure ingredients list provided.
edited again for typos
Full ingredient disclosure is the best way to go, without having to tell of methods, be they getting the ingredients pre-mixed in a box, adding additional ingredients for stability, or creaming the butter for precisely 2 minutes 39 seconds.
If you use a box mix, brands differ as far as preservatives and if the customer is looking for allergen info it may be in one box and not the other. So I'd just give them a list of ingredients and keep the decorations on the package to myself.
As an aside, it's kinda funny because I tout myself as using only AMERICAN ingredients...nothing imported from other countries. Then I realized my Baker's chocolate is from Canada...so now I am a user of imported chocolate I guess.
The definitions of what kind of baker you are are more precise when we categorize ourselves by our ingredients or omission of certain ingredients. Which can go beyond scratch, which I believe with K8 can mean adding certain ingredients yourself at a point and still be considered scratch. Like I said..."scratch" is an opinion without an official definition from the industry officials. The dictionary definition has not helped, so I think we need more clarification from those who govern the industry.
The FTC would do well to give everyone a nice, EXACT definition of "Scratch"....since it is not exactly a scientific word and has many meanings.
Case in point: Hardee's "Made from scratch biscuits"....whose ingredients I have copied from their website here:
BREAKFAST MENU
Made from Scratch Biscuit
Biscuit Premix
Biscuit Flour
Buttermilk
Margarine, liquid
Gasp....I thought they used butter.
And I'm not smoking crack about interpreting the law--I mean multiply it by 50 states then by the two different sides (at least) that's 100 different interpretations just for starters--add in the particulars and the judge and or a jury (?) and it's a crap shoot.
I mean a decision will come down but it's not for mere mortal me to figure all that out.
I love this one--we, the bakery, had a local restaurant buy our pies for sale by the slice--cool--however the restaurant's marquee read, "Home Made Pies"
Just because someone asks you doesn't mean you have to answer. If they insist on the answer - insist they get another baker. Some people have recipes they wouldn't share with ANYONE!JMHO
Maybe in TX you don't but in MA where I am in my county I DO have to tell them.....my recipes are in the hands of the HD AND my clients have a right to my list of ingredients.
Don't advise others of things you yourself don't know.....every state, city and county has different laws.
Geez, I guess this board needs to shut down then so no one will advise anyone with potential wrong information. I do know that if someone asked me the ingredients to my cakes I could tell them instantly. It is right on the box and then I add buttermilk, oil, 3 extra large or jumbo eggs and a stick of real butter. So I think I do KNOW every single ingredient in my cakes. I just don't have to tell someone that Betty and her crew printed it out for me.
Loads of people know I bake from mixes - as I said - not one bride has EVER asked me. Most of my brides are referrals from other brides...they have already ate my cake and thought it was great. I buy good old Betty right at the local HEB or Wal Mart in plain site of everyone who wants to see. Every time I go through the line the checker always says "wow you must be making alotta cake" which I then tell her I am making a wedding cake and that I am a professional cake decorator.
Let me explain something - I come from a marketing background. I have 30 years in marketing. I tell the truth to all my customers but I don't have to tell them what I don't want to. If they want to use XYZ baker that is just fine with me.
How one creates their cakes is a personal matter. Each to their own but they are not required to tell how...only with what. Maybe it is the marketing background - tell the truth but you don't have to give away trade secrets either. If someone called me and said they needed to know because of an allergy I would tell them to use someone else as I DO NOT have the facilities to have a totally nut free/egg free or whatever free they need.
Debbie, 'scratch and 'mix' are methods not ingredients.
So why do people have a problem saying "I start with a mix"?
I WOULD have a problem lying to my client.....obviously you don't and that's what separates us I guess.
I've said it before and I'll say it again and yes you can quote me......IF scratch baking were easy and didn't require any skill then everyone would be able to do it successfully. In fact it is NOT easy and it DOES require skill.
That's ugly talk accusing me thusly. However you are quickly forgiven.
It also takes skill/finesse to debate.
If you really want to know why I have a problem stating I start with a mix is because I use both scratch recipes and doctored recipes and I can make a scratch cake with cake emulsifier which is in essence a cake mix cake but prepared by the scratch method, aka measuring out each ingredient.
You would have me lie by stating "I start with a mix"
What are you even talking about?
OMG. I have spent WAY too much time reading this while having my coffee. I feel like a bad mommy now. But, CC is my therapy .
Nobody is crying, so of course I can't resist extending my mommy break to put my 2 cents in. I don't think OP was looking to lie, just looking for advice on how to explain to the person that she uses a mix but it's not JUST a mix and it is delicious. She did get a lot of good advice. I LOVE WASC and most of the time use some variation of it. I have proudly volunteered that it is a heavily doctored mix and people can never believe it, because it doesn't taste like a basic mix. I've also made from scratch and I will offer that, but then it gets way more expensive and since the doctored mix tastes so good, why spend the extra $.
I tell the truth to all my customers but I don't have to tell them what I don't want to. If they want to use XYZ baker that is just fine with me.
How one creates their cakes is a personal matter. Each to their own but they are not required to tell how...only with what.
yep
Saying "I bake scratch" is a great marketing tagline like I've said before.
I think it also bears repeating that that means measuring out each individual ingredient.
from Merriam Webster:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/from%20scratch
from scratch 1 : from a point at which nothing has been done ahead of time <build a school system from scratch>
2 : without using a prepared mixture of ingredients <bake a cake from scratch>
So in response to the uber literal, hyper picky and legalistic amongst us then those of us who advertise and bake scratch need to have the heads up on what 'bake from scratch' really truly means by the dictionary ~~wouldn't want the law to come down on yah.
However, from my point of view after providing full disclosure ingredient list you can say anything you want regarding your methods because that's what I do, I say what I want to say.
First amendment thoughts for you.
Have you seen the Arby's commercial where they point out the beef is "Hand sliced" by Sarah in the back?
Hand sliced? 
They throw a big slab of meat on an electric slicer and turn it on. The machine goes to town, slicing the meat!
And how does "hand sliced" make it taste better anyway?
Marketing ..... it's a wonderful thing to observe! It's almost my hobby to watch marketing gimmicks and find the holes in them!
As a side story, do you remember when McDonalds had the marketing promo about "If we don't make it right, it's free." Think about what that means .....
I order a cheeseburger, fries and coke. They forget my fries. I tell them, "you forgot my fries". They have 2 choices:
1) They can give me my fries, which I've paid for. Ah HAH! They made it 'right" for me!
2) They can tell me "Get off my case, lady, you ain't gettin' no fries! (turn face into a big smile as they hand me my coupon for my FREE french fries THAT I PAID FOR ANYWAY!!! Oh look! THey 'made it right'! 
)
The ""we'll make it right or it's free" was a bunch of hot air and meant NOTHING!
I love sittign back and watching this kind of stuff!
I love sittign back and watching this kind of stuff!
Oooh oooh Me too me too <jumping up & down smilie face>
Like the idea is if you buy that car you're gonna get the hot chick or whatever.
I LOVE to watch the marketing Love it
Many times I say, I'm totally not ever buying that/going there because of that commercial.
Other times, I say I'm so going there and getting that (even if it's dog food & we don't have a dog) if it's an especially great commercial.
I really get off on the psychology of marketing. It's not easy either. But I am having some good success in my/our little bookstore. Fas.cin.a.ting.
These days it's all about price point! Sorta
Another of my favorites is the insurance commercials where they compare pricing. I used to work in auto insurance. I have no knowledge of the specifics of how they compare pricing, but here's my theory:
- Driver applies with 3 accidents. Ins Co doesn't want to insure them.
- Insurance co quotes them at high risk rates, let's say $800.
- Insurance co uses rates from other company that may or may NOT be high risk rates. Quote for competitor company is $600.
- Wow, what a deal! Bad driver goes to the OTHER Guy, which is what the original insurance company wanted them to do anyway. Original Ins Co doesn't have the high risk driver and now their competitor DOES.
Whatta scam! Whatta great idea! Whatta way to screw your competition and look like a good guy to the public at the same time!
I luv this stuff.
Do you like the car dealers who take your FREE credit application? You mean there are people who CHARGE you to try to buy a car? Huh! Whadda ya know about that?
Quote by @%username% on %date%
%body%