I've called and emailed Greg Skipper from Fat Daddio's, and he has not replied. However, I do see he has made sure CC has taken down my comparative test.

If you read what remains of the post I wrote, you will see I gladly included new information from CC members. I even posted FD's web site!

I am very sorry Mr. Skpper is so displeased with a comparative study of his pans. (I've had to write duplicate posts since he has posted in 3 forums).

Petit-four,

I thought your study was more than fair so I am surprised that the monitors have declared it not fit for public viewing by CC members! We're adults, we can be objective and come to our own conclusions!

Christeena --

I spent about 45 minutes on the phone with Greg Skipper. I have his permission to share our email exchange with you all.

I'd like leave the decision about buying up to all CC members. This was, and always was, my intent.

I am now working to clarify why my post was censored.

Thanks to all who PM'd and emailed support!

Petit-four



Dear Greg:

Thanks for your recent post on Cake Central.

My evaluation of the pan was simply a reflection of what a local cake shop sold. Just as a food critic visits a restaurant and does not ask for "special" service, my purchases (the Magic Line was from an on-line store) reflected what an average customer would receive. If you read my post carefully, you will see I also noted some problems with the Magic Line pans (such as difficulty in cleaning them by hand). In many areas your pans were rated as superior to Magic Line. The experiment I conducted was fair, given that no accompanying information regarding baking temperature was given to me when I bought the pan from a local cake shop.

Most importantly, as I am sure you know, bakers, whether in production bakeries, small custom shops, or at home, value fewer crumbs. I baked another set of cakes (cinnamon, scratch recipe) at 320. I had similar results: more crumbs, and a longer baking time.

As I mentioned in one of my posts, I suspected the crowning was due to the temperature being rather too high. However, if FD pans do require temperatures as low as 300 degrees, I would strongly encourage the company to provide some accompanying literature about the requirements. As you can see, none of the 1600+ readers (myself included) ever mentioned receiving any information about this. Only one post mentioned using a lower temperature, and she had to find the information herself. And, as you know, convection ovens have become much more common in home and small shop kitchens.

Regarding the information about aluminum transfer, you may wish to review the Alzheimer's Society's public health article, which concludes, "The overwhelming medical and scientific opinion is that the findings outlined above do not convincingly demonstrate a causal relationship between aluminium and Alzheimer's disease, and that no useful medical or public health recommendations can be made, at least at present." http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=99 However, I do applaud you for bringing up this health issue.

Another point of concern to me is that Magic Line pans clearly state where they are manufactured; indeed, it is indelibly etched on the pan: "Made in USA." The Fad Daddios pan I purchased had only a sticker on it "Made in China." I would strongly suggest, since you note that "our process actually costs us more money to manufacture" that you provide evidence to the decorating community that your factories are staffed with individuals compliant with FDA health codes, and workers are paid appropriately.

I'd also like to add I am in no way affiliated with Magic Line, nor any other brand of cake product manufacturer. I would like to share my concerns with the CC community, as well.

Sincerely,
Kathy (Petit-four)

Here's his reply:

Kathy,

I appreciate your email and how well thought out and executed your experiment was. Please understand I am not bashing you at all and I apologize to you if that is how it came across. On the contrary I am quite respectful of your experiment and your time in conducting it. I just wanted to reply accordingly as I need to be fair to my company and brand and make sure our customers are aware of differences. I did note where we rated well in some areas. I was just trying to do my part to explain possible reasons for areas where we clearly lacked a âgood gradeâ.

You couldnât be more correct in informing our customers of baking temperature differences. In fact, we just started labeling our pans and this information will be appearing on those labels. I should have known better by not doing that before. I likely could have eliminated many of these issues. I have received a huge influx of emails since this morning and have heard from several people who like the pans and have stated they even bake with our pans at 275 in convection with excellent color, consistency, and release. I am not endorsing 275 but it goes to show variances that occur from oven to oven.

I noted your web link with the correlation between Alzheimerâs and aluminum and quite frankly, I agree. I did not state that there was a correlation between Alzheimerâs and aluminum, nor do I honestly believe that there is. Aluminum is prevalent in so many areas of our lives and is the most abundant material. It is agreed that there is an elevated amount of aluminum found in autopsy reports of individuals with Alzheimers and this has lead to a very large group of consumers who are genuinely concerned with the use of this metal. For the past 40 years we have had tremendous trouble selling our previous style of natural aluminum pans in many markets (especially France and Italy) and to many commercial bakers because of the leaching and contamination issue. Natural aluminum is unquestionably highly reactive with acidic foods and changes the flavor of many foods as well. Cream that comes in contact with aluminum distorts the taste of it. Acidic foods will literally âeatâ the aluminum. We sent several thousands of natural aluminum 9x13 pans to Knottâs Berry Farm in Southern California many years ago that were used for their boysenberry cakes. After a couple months we were notified that holes were appearing in the pans and large cavities were covering the pan. After sending the pans to a metallurgist we discovered the fruit was literally eating the pans. This same customer has been using our anodized aluminum pans with absolutely no pitting or contamination. The problems with natural aluminum are very real and that is why we elected to anodize our products.

As for the China issue, we are very proud of the quality and manufacturing process of our bakeware. We have very strict controls on our factory, employ our own QC staff, and have on-site our own management team. Our factory is greatly capitalized by our company. Our factory is state of the art in technology and is perhaps the cleanest facility I have ever stepped foot in. Our pans do cost us more as they are made form 100% the same materials we used for Magic Line and then anodized after the fact. If I went to market with a natural aluminum pan I would save the cost of anodizing which adds that additional cost to my product (up to 13% over natural aluminum).

I would like for you to call me to talk some more. I noticed that CC has modified your original post and I have had absolutely nothing to do with that. I posted my response on 3 different boards there only for the reasons to get the free pan offer out to as many people as possible.

Thank you,

Greg
Greg Skipper
Fat Daddios
Toll Free 866.418.9001

Oh, and I want to add: I did not, have not, nor ever will receive any free, discounted, or otherwise marked-down products or merchandise from FD or ML (nor Wilton for that matter). No free pans for me, thank you.

I'm happy to clarify any questions about this thread, and appreciate all the honest and freely-given information posted. I'm very sorry the original post was taken down, and am in the process of clarifying with CC why the post was removed.

Thank you to all for your support -- I've have quite a day!

Kathy, as discussed with you on the phone I do not know why your post was deleted and don't agree that it was fair. I was pretty impressed with the professionalism and thoroughness your experiment displayed.

My response was strictly to set the record straight on use of the pans and wanted to make sure this community knew our pans needed to be handled differently. There is no other community like this on the web and it never ceases to amaze me the manner in which everyone supports, teaches, and encourage one another.

Kathy has not and has elected not to receive a pan from us and that alone shows the impartiality of what she has done for this board. My only intention in offering a free pan to others is to have them test the product as well without the expense of purchasing a pan to do so.

It was good speaking with her on the phone and I welcome anyone else to contact me should they have any questions or doubt about our commitment to providing our customers the best baking pan and experience.

Thanks,

Greg

Thanks Greg -- I appreciate you vouching for my words. I did not mean to state my rejection of a "free pan" as an insult to you or CC members in any way, and I hope CC members choose the pans best suited for their needs.

I would appreciate it, Greg, if you could work to get my original post re-instated. I would be happy to edit it to show the notation about baking, and in fact, have to bake another cake tonight. I hope CC will allow me to post my results, and, as always, I have encouraged anyone to freely state their opinions, and I was always more than willing to update my post (please wade through it!).

Thank you for listening to my concerns, and I hope you are able to update the pans with baking temperature labeling soon.

Many Thanks,
Petit-four (Kathy)

Just wanted to acknowledge Petit-four and give her a nod. During this whole fiasco (and make no mistake my friends, this was a total fiasco) she has been calm, cool & collected. Her communications were professional and succinct in ways I still strive for. She has class and as we all know, ya can't buy class!

As for the pans, most of that anodized stuff went right over my head. All I know is she performed a side by side test and the manufacturer who's product did not perform as well came here, had words with someone, the thread was pulled/altered, free pans were offered.....

For me, what I am really surprised about is why more FD pan owners aren't furious about the whole special temperature thing.....how many cakes have been ruined, how much money wasted, how much batter, time and eggs lost?

All because the very backbone of their product, the thing that supposedly makes it work the best and will give you substandard results if used incorrectly is NEVER MENTIONED! I find that really negligent on Fat Daddio's part.

Perhaps instead of worrying about poor test results & losing potential new customers they should worry about a class action disappointment that affects all the customers they already have.

CakeDiva,

I am at a loss for your post. I never intended for my offer of a free pan to be construed in any other way than to get my product in as many hands as possible to test and see each persons individual. Kathy (PetitFour) and I have spoken on a couple of occasions today and I thought everything has been resolved.

I did not censor nor request that her post be deleted. I simply responded with my thoughts on pan usage. I feel as if I and my company are being persecuted for adding my posts and opinions to this board. I have never been adversarial, not once. I think Kathy (PetitFours) would agree with me on this.

There are over one hundred oven types and styles and literally thousands of recipes, each requiring various handling and processes, let alone altitude variances. I have people telling me they use our pans from a run of 275 degrees and up.

I welcome any comments or questions you have and as proven will always strive to be timely in my responses.

Thanks,

Greg

I never meant to imply your offer a free pans was a bribe - I am assuming you wanted to get the word out, 'your pans are good', etc.... this is not a problem and actually good marketing that will garner you many customers.

What I was really disappointed about was that you guys had pans with special cooking instructions that you never gave to the consumers. And then her 'pan-test' was dismissed as being flawed because of errors. That wasn't fair.

I just find it unbelievable that you never thought to explain the unique cooking steps necessary for these to work right. I'm sorry if my feelings about this do not please you. You were clearly upset about the test results and I am upset about the temperature thing.

As a consumer, can't you understand why that would be frustrating? To buy nice pans and have them not perform as promised because key instructions were never provided?

All I can be is quite thankful for this entire thing happening since I have a set of FD pans being delivered today or tomorrow and had Petit-four not performed this test and had you not responded to it, I would have baked my cakes at 350, as I always do, and they would not have come out as I expected. That would have been a real disappointment.

However, since I now have proper instructions, if they fail, it will all be on me.....

Hi - Greg and CakeDiva --

I just want to be fair here.

1) Greg, we did agree that it sure was confusing to CC readers, in part because you posted in 3 forums, and at that time, or a few minutes later my post was deleted.

2) I fully support CakeDiva73's request for greater clarity.

I had sent Jackie a private message, but since my post is still down, I'll post it here. I really think greater "transparency" in this whole affair might help us all out.

Again, my intent, and others' has been to evaluate pans for our use. I am very glad that FD's will be including information on the lower baking temperature. In all fairness, though, 275 compared to the "norm" of 350 is a 75 degree difference. I do wish you the best, and hope that you and other pan manufacturers continue to respond to the needs of the cake artist community.

And CakeDiva, I hope to get better answers for all on CC.


OK -- so ...here's my message to Jackie:

Dear Jackie:

First, I would like to thank you for this site. It is a wonderful opportunity for cake decorators, from shop owners to hobbyists, to share information.

I was very drawn to CC because it appeared to be a site where a free exchange of information was encouraged, all in the pursuit of making better, more delicious, and more beautiful cakes.

I have read CC for about 8 months, and joined officially in February. I understand that running a site requires expensive equipment, and financial considerations are given to site sponsors.

However, I am extremely disappointed in the direct actions you took in deleting my post.

You can read the responses of dozens of CC members -- most all of them mention repeatedly how "fair" the test was.

I would like to ask you to re-post my message, and as before, I was happy to continue updating it, repeating, underlining, and relaying information about the proper use of both FD and ML pans.

Thank you, Jackie.

Sincerely,
Petit-four (Kathy)



OK -- and 2 last things:
1) Jackie hasn't replied yet. I understand it might take a while to get the post back.
2) Wilton seems to get bashed freely on this site, near daily. However, I see no evidence of censoring of these posts. I'd just like to point that out.

Heath -- I want to be very respectful here, but I think it would help if you disclosed the situation fully.

Thanks,
Petit-four

Jackie is not available today to comment on this..

I have PMed Petit-four to discuss this topic however I am not going to enter into a public debate about the removal of the post, it is between Petit-four and myself to discuss.

OK, CC members -- Heath is being fair here.

Thanks, Heath. Sorry, I had not gotten the "blinking" PM light yet. I think we can resolve this quickly...sorry if there is any confusion.

Thanks everyone,
Petit-four (Kathy)

I'm impressed by everyone in this thread. Especially Kathy(PF) and Greg (FD)

Kudos to both of you.



And is it weird that everytime I read about Heath, I think of the llama from The Emperors New Groove? (because of his avatar? )

I know I don't often post on this board so this post might be ignored. But I question how the initial experiment was flawed. The experiment was conducted using the information at hand. The baking temperature used was even slightly lower then the average baking temperature. If Jane Doe was baking a recipe or box mix from, she would follow the directions and most likely bake at 350. These pans would, by admission of the manufacture, provide poor results under those circumstances. Therefore, the initial experiment was not flawed. The only way it would have been flawed is if the pans had instructions to bake at a lower temperature and the baker did not.

Also to add my personal experience, the Fat Daddio pans have not been successful for me. I ordered some last year because they were the only pans I was able to get a 7 inch square in. I bake from scratch with recipes that I have spent years perfecting. Most of my recipes are baked at 325 with a couple baked at 275. Every time I have baked in the FD pans, I have gotten a hump. My cakes bake flat in my ML, Wilton and Calphalon pans. The other issue I have had with the FD pans is that they bake with a much lighter crumb and the edges of the cakes are often crumbly. Because of these reasons, I have chosen not to purchase more FD pans. However, I will say that I have several friends who love the FD pans and won't use any others now. So in reality, I think it is a good idea for any baker to experiment with the different brands of pans and see which works best for you.

I think this is a prime example of the one-sided censoring that goes on here at CC. Whether it be product evaluations, beliefs or simple opinions on how to make a cake, all opinions need to be valued and accepted or the forum doesn't serve a purpose.

Too many times people's opinions have been dismissed, bashed and feelings have been hurt because the fairness is one-sided. Many have left CC due to this, how many more need to leave before this is resolved? Opinions are just that, opinions. When you post a question, you are going to get several views and opinions. Isn't that why you posted to begin with? Isn't that the purpose of the forum?

But it's Cake Centrals board...they pay for it- therefore, they have the final say so in what happens. Most sites adhere to a strict policy of CYA.

And not to be hateful, but honestly, it's up to their judgement and if you don't like it, you don't HAVE to deal with it.

I read through this post pretty fast. I did not see the initial experiement. However I think that Greg from FD handled himself very professionally. If his pans are used for an experiment, I think it is only fair to let him respond to the findings.

For fairness to be one-sided, there must be some "side" you feel we are on.

What side is it exactly that we are on?

Considering we provide a free service, that we attempt to keep clean, family-friendly, and fun, I would say that we are on the "side" of the cake central members.

Some people who have left feel we over-moderate, others who have left felt we did not moderate enough. We cannot possibly make everyone happy all of the time. The Admins and moderators of CakeCentral have to make tons of moderating decisions every day, and we will not always make popular decisions, and we will not always make the correct decision. We just do the best we can to be as fair and consistent as we can. It takes a number of people to moderate this site, and we all will view issues differently.

Cake Diva,

I understand your concerns but please know that the reason we made the pans we did were because of the benefits of anodizing. Those benefits being a safer, more durable, and attractive finish. In addition, we eliminated the welds to provide a consistent heat transferance and more durable pan that eliminates the potential of welds leaking on the inside and splitting or weakening over time. Take a loo at the inside corners of ML pans and you will see slight weld penetration on the insides of various pans. This is just another area that can cause food accumulation and potential problems. Again, I restate that ML is a great pan. I simply believe that the changes I made were for the benefit of our customers and make FD's a better choice.

An added benefit that we did not anticipate is the efficiencies in baking time and temperature. Since we are now aware of this we are making efforts to let people now of this benefit. However it is a feature we have to be careful of how we go to market with. Its a darned if you do darned if you don't situation. Because of the variances in baking styles, recipes, ingredients and equipment each persons experience is slightly different. That is exactly why you sill notice Magic Line and most every other pan manufacturer do not give specific temperature information. We are simply going to step out and start informing our customers that our pans are more efficient than natural aluminum and recommend a lower baking temperature. Hopefully this will suffice.

CakeDiva, I feel I am an honest and fair person. Many retailers and cake decorators know me from the many years I have manufactured. My intentions throughout this entire ordeal has been to be a responsive and good partner to this board by supporting my company and providing the best information I have. If anyone thinks I have been other than responsive and honest in my communication on this message thread, I sincerely apologize.

Our company truly cares about the baking experience of each and every one of you. If you are not happy with our products, simply let me know. I stand behind every item we make and want each person to be happy with their decision. I want to again thank this board for the opportunity to have this forum. I feel that CC is a great resource for all of us.

Cake Diva, please let me know if you have any questions and give me a call if you have the chance. I would love to speak with you further.

Thanks!
Greg

I have never heard of ANY professional grade pan manufacturer giving the consumer instructions on how to use a pan (maybe Wilton does but I don't own any of those). The time and temp of baking is something that is learned by trial and error and by asking what other experienced bakers are doing.

Fortunately, I read many months ago that we should be baking at 325 degrees in ALL professional grade pans, which I have done since.

--Marianne
P.s. I love my Fat Daddio pans; they work perfectly and clean up beautifully.

Yes, crazy4sugar -- I agree. I hope everyone sees that I repeatedly tried to point out cake recipes, testing, and baking times would likely need to be adjusted.

And yes, the FD's got an A+ for cleaning.

I hope we can restore the original post.

Petit-four and I have exchanged some PMs regarding this situation.

I believe it has been worked out, and I wanted to make a statement that will hopefully bring an end to the confusion of the day.

1. In hindsight I feel that a mistake was made in removing the post. This was a failure on the part of Jackie and I.

2. The removal of the post was not due to the "influence" of a vendor. Our understanding of the situation was flawed. We understood the situation to be that the comparison test was invalid due to the issue with the cook times.

In discussing this further with both Petit-four and with Greg, it is now clear to me that the test should have been allowed to stand as it was. Our failure to fully understand the issue led to the drama surrounding this issue.

No one should be to blame here other than myself and Jackie. Petit-four did nothing wrong, Fat Daddio did nothing wrong.

As I state earlier, we are in the position of trying to review lots of posts each day, and sometimes we make mistakes, this is one of those times.

I apologize for the confusion and drama this failure has caused.

Thanks, Heath.

I appreciate the clarification.

Sincerely,
Petit-four

Let me put my two cents in. I've been baking a long time. Usually from scratch and only after finding this site did I start using doctored cake mixes. I've used Wilton pans mostly but I recently purchased two FD pans and I didn't see anything wrong with them. Again it goes back to personal preference. I've had cakes come out of my Wilton pans just like the ones in the test. Chocolate cake seems to crumble more and come out of the pan like the test. Again this is what happens some times. It depends on the recipe. I can't say that one pan is better than the next because it all depends on how you bake, what recipe you use and everybody oven isn't the same. Which is better? it's just like Scratch or a Mix. Which do you prefer? I grew up having cake baked in cast iron skillets. Never heard any complaints from Mom.

Steplite and Loriemoms: Thanks for your posts. I agree that the recipe, eggs, beating time, pan greasing, and other factors play a very large part in how cakes come out of pans.

I regret the original post is still gone, but, the second sentence of the now-deleted post was: "This is my (subjective) opinion." The posting of the FD's owner's letter over my post makes my post appear inflammatory -- and the original was far from that. I think if you read the original replies you will see it was a calm, measured discussion between CC members.

My main concern was in comparing pans, seeing how the edges came out, sharing some photos, and hoping to get a sense of others' experiences. At all times I was happy to update my post, and add in helpful hints on using both ML and FD pans.

Since my post was deleted, replaced with another post, and 3 other threads were started by the FD owner about my test all within minutes of the "free pans" being offered, I think a lot of misconceptions arose among CC members.

If you look at the other threads, you will see I explain what happened, and I wanted to assure everyone I judge no one for accepting free pans. However, I wanted to make sure CC members did not think I was writing any posts to obtain free products. CC members should buy or obtain whichever pans work best for them!

I will request that this thread be locked, since it appears that CC is not going to restore the original post I wrote. I am very concerned at the misrepresentation of my character. I do not think the preface added to my post reflects the content or intent of anything I have ever written on CC. I have tried to be a helpful and non-confrontational CC member in every post I have written, and I truly appreciate all who share on CC.

Thank you to all who gave me a lot of feedback and support.

Sincerely,
Petit-four

Although you're going to request the thread be locked, I would hate to see the whole thing deleted as it has some valuable information even in the exchanges and opinions expressed (i.e. we can get the jist of some of your original post by reading the other comments). Since they can't restore the post (I too was hoping that they would do so but understand why lost data=lost data) can you at least ask them to edit the "disclaimer" (preface)? I agree, it's rather misleading, and it's not fair to anticipate that someone should get thru 6 pages of posts before they can see that your original test was not "incorrect" "fallible" and "flawed". Sorry, but those words just make me cringe on your behalf . More power to ya, Petit-four, and sorry this whole thing unraveled like this. Your OP was the kind I just LOVE to find here on CC, "real world" tests of things whether recipes, tools, or etc.

I did see the original post and I don't think it was mean or anything...(although I have looked at Global Sugar web site several times and cannot find anything about free pans...) A lot of us feel Wilton are inferior products and I don't see those posts being banned, deleted or changed. So this does leave some thinking on how much "freedom" we have in our posts. But then again, CC does own this forem and I guess we need to follow thier rules. I still say they should have just posted a disclaimer saying this is a non scientific experiement and the opinion of the poster...