How Does Bokdoos Do It

Decorating By nutcase68 Updated 23 Sep 2013 , 3:55pm by SystemMod1

jason_kraft Posted 22 Sep 2013 , 7:30pm
post #31 of 59

AI'm not surprised at all that this thread was started. IMO there are two factors at work here: users have been conditioned by indirect payment models (e.g. ever more intrusive ads) to expect online content for free, and people in general tend to underestimate the value of both their time (spent in R&D to recreate a technique instead of just buying the tutorial) and other people's time (the time spent by the creator of the tutorial).

It is heartening to see vocal support for the creator of the tutorial, but based on my own experience the percentage of the target market who will actually purchase the tutorial (based on everyone who sees the tutorial, not the posters here) is miniscule. For example, I set up prominent $5 and $10 donation links on my blog focused on the bakery business...in the past five months there have been more than 10,000 visitors and only 9 donations, which translates to less than one-tenth of one percent. The percentage might be a little higher if the content was behind a paywall (e.g. requiring payment before seeing the content or publishing an e-book), but the numbers are not enough to take time away from my other more profitable projects.

liz at sugar Posted 22 Sep 2013 , 7:40pm
post #32 of 59

On a tangent off of Jason's comment above, I wonder if there is a "paid" version of something like Cake Central (or a similar baking forum) where you have to pay $XX dollars each year to join.  I am a member of a forum like that in another industry, and it really does cut down on those VERY basic questions, and the interactions are just more professional, because there aren't 10 questions a day posted on "how do I make my frosting pink"?  Maybe it exists and I just don't know about it.

 

Liz

MimiFix Posted 22 Sep 2013 , 9:25pm
post #33 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_kraft 

based on my own experience the percentage of the target market who will actually purchase the tutorial (based on everyone who sees the tutorial, not the posters here) is miniscule. For example, I set up prominent $5 and $10 donation links on my blog focused on the bakery business...in the past five months there have been more than 10,000 visitors and only 9 donations, which translates to less than one-tenth of one percent. The percentage might be a little higher if the content was behind a paywall (e.g. requiring payment before seeing the content or publishing an e-book), but the numbers are not enough to take time away from my other more profitable projects.

 

And on another tangent: I'm surprised you received any donations. Jason, when you began this "experimental blog" I wondered what you could have been thinking. You offered advice and expected CC members to pay? Where was your business plan? Who was your target market? You gave away what other professionals charge for. I thought of you as cheap cake lady of the business advice world. You're far too good to be spending your free time explaining business basics over and over and over again.

jason_kraft Posted 22 Sep 2013 , 9:44pm
post #34 of 59

A

Original message sent by MimiFix

[SIZE=14px]And on another tangent: [/SIZE][SIZE=14px]I'm surprised you received[/SIZE] [SIZE=14px][I]any[/I][/SIZE] [SIZE=14px]donations. Jason, when you began this "experimental blog" I wondered what you could have been thinking. You offered advice and expected CC members to pay? Where was your business plan? Who was your target market? You gave away what other professionals charge for. I thought of you as cheap cake lady of the business advice world. You're far too good to be spending your free time explaining business basics over and over and over again.[/SIZE]

It was a trial run (basically market research) to get a sense of how big the market would be, since writing a book is a PITA and I wanted to see if it was worth it.

I enjoy donating my time answering questions on CC, the blog was basically an extension of that and I wanted to see where it would go. Based on the metrics from the blog, monetizing my business expertise with a book for this limited market probably wouldn't be worth the hassle, especially since others have already done so. Luckily I only invested a few hours in the blog to reach this conclusion as opposed to the hundreds of hours needed for a book.

I'm surprised you didn't say anything to me when I started the blog, I would have welcomed the input.

MimiFix Posted 22 Sep 2013 , 10:11pm
post #35 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_kraft 


I'm surprised you didn't say anything to me when I started the blog, I would have welcomed the input.

 

Sorry, Jason. I thought about it but I figured you would think I just wanted to stop the competition :wink: 

embersmom Posted 22 Sep 2013 , 10:52pm
post #36 of 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by liz at sugar 
 

On a tangent off of Jason's comment above, I wonder if there is a "paid" version of something like Cake Central (or a similar baking forum) where you have to pay $XX dollars each year to join.  I am a member of a forum like that in another industry, and it really does cut down on those VERY basic questions, and the interactions are just more professional, because there aren't 10 questions a day posted on "how do I make my frosting pink"?  Maybe it exists and I just don't know about it.

 

Liz

I'm a longtime member of another forum which went to pay-for-special-content a few years ago.  According to the owner, it not only provided a revenue stream of sorts, but it also cut down on the number of trolls as well as one-time posters.  At the same time, it lost a good chunk of its membership because nobody wanted to pay for something they'd been getting for "free".  The forum is still active, but nowhere near the way it was before the pay scheme.

 

This also makes me think of egullet, the forum that was primarily for professional chefs and other culinary professionals.  They went to a pay-to-play format and never recovered.  I don't even think it's around anymore.

costumeczar Posted 22 Sep 2013 , 10:54pm
post #37 of 59

Two points: First, buying a tutorial for $30 would probably be a bargain if it shows you how to manage the tricks that would be needed to do this. Second, this isn't a new technique, it's pretty popular in Asian countries and is done all the time with sponge cakes. Here's one blog that shows how to do a couple of designs: http://*********.com/blog/look-decorative-and-colorful-spring-cake-roll-recipes

 

I had seen one girl's website that showed some of the cakes that she made, and the designs were so intricate and detailed it was amazing. Unfortunatley, I can't find the bookmark adn the whole site was written in Japanese, so I can't find it on google. I wish I could, because she had photo tutorials so you could see how it was done. What you would expect from a paid tutorial, though, would be a more thorough explanation, and some additional tips and tricks that could help you to avoid trial and error.

 

Edited to add::: Hmmm, I see the name of the website is blocked. Just google the last part of the blog post name and it will come up. Clicking the link won't work.

Stitches Posted 22 Sep 2013 , 11:01pm
post #38 of 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by embersmom 
 

 

This also makes me think of egullet, the forum that was primarily for professional chefs and other culinary professionals.  They went to a pay-to-play format and never recovered.  I don't even think it's around anymore.

Not that it matters.........but as a former forum host I'm pretty sure that isn't why everyone left eG. It was their politics and policies.

Stitches Posted 22 Sep 2013 , 11:10pm
post #39 of 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by costumeczar 
 

girl's website that showed some of the cakes that she made, and the designs were so intricate and detailed it was amazing. Unfortunatley, I can't find the bookmark adn the whole site was written in Japanese, so I can't find it on google. I wish I could, because she had photo tutorials so you could see how it was done. What you would expect from a paid tutorial, though, would be a more thorough explanation, and some additional tips and tricks that could help you to avoid trial and error.

 

Can you find it using google translator? I'm curious now... I never knew people were doing things this elaborate until I stumbled on this thread.

embersmom Posted 22 Sep 2013 , 11:52pm
post #40 of 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stitches 
 

Not that it matters.........but as a former forum host I'm pretty sure that isn't why everyone left eG. It was their politics and policies.

That too :nodding:

 

I wasn't very active there, but I do remember something along those lines.

costumeczar Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 1:00am
post #41 of 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stitches 
 

Can you find it using google translator? I'm curious now... I never knew people were doing things this elaborate until I stumbled on this thread.

 

I'm going to look at my facebook posts, I know that I posted it there when I first found it. Will report back after Breaking Bad is over. :)

costumeczar Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 1:09am
post #42 of 59

Oh ho! Here's the first site, and I know that I saw a youtube video where she was showing how to do this. It's a sponge cake recipe that you pipe out. Not as easy as it looks. http://www.mrobincakes.com/JASchas/

 

I'll keep looking for the Japanese girl's site, it was way more elaborate than this.

erin2345 Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 1:29am
post #43 of 59

If someone posts something on their website or blog site I would have no problems sharing that information (as in telling someone to check out the website for themselves).  Obviously if there are instructions for something freely available online the person who put up the content is expecting other people to read it.  If I purchase a tutorial, I would not post the link to the tutorial for all to see.  

costumeczar Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 1:36am
post #44 of 59

Kikiandkyle found the link for me... http://ameblo.jp/chottono-kufu/theme-10020222212.html

 

then there's this video that shows the basic procedure: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3rwigHFMk4&list=PLf6eqf2wk4iZVTqIM3BH584TvsrjLQNFz&index=3

 

I don't know if it's the same process, but if you're using a sponge for the sides of the cake that's how you do it. To make the designs that go all the way through the cake I've seen people bake a cake first, then cut it into shapes and rebake it into the larger cake. A nice effect, but it seems like a pain in the butt. One of my friends calls that kind of thing "stunt baking."

Stitches Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 2:43am
post #45 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by costumeczar 
 

Oh ho! Here's the first site, and I know that I saw a youtube video where she was showing how to do this. It's a sponge cake recipe that you pipe out. Not as easy as it looks. http://www.mrobincakes.com/JASchas/

 

I'll keep looking for the Japanese girl's site, it was way more elaborate than this.

 

(I always screw up posting late at night when I'm tired, so lets see if I can do it again...)

 

This is easier than you'd guess. That's basically joconde and we were doing it back in 2004 (in the states, much earlier in France). You use cigarette paste and color it, you free hand pipe it or use a stencil to make a pattern on a silicone mat. (which is the mat with the patterns printed in it, the Asian women is using). You place your joconde on a pan in the freezer to freeze your design so it doesn't smear when you spread cake batter over it, than bake. I'm too tired to find a decent photo but here's a bad example of some I did years ago:

 

 

What the link to the Asian site showed... was basically that, but changing out the cigarette paste (cookie dough) with piped sponge batter. The M Robbins cakes are really well done! Most of her designs appear to be stenciled jonconde.....which is like drawing with batter.

 

But what happened.............I got lost..........I thought we were talking about the designs inside the cakes, no? Now THAT'S a whole different story getting images through-out the inside of the cake. I always wonder what the cake tastes like....re-baking baked cake inside another cake?

imagenthatnj Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 2:50am
post #46 of 59

Yes, I was wondering how we went from a design inside of a cake to a joconde. There was even a tutorial here at CC on a strawberry joconde I think. As for how the cakes with a design inside taste like, a friend of mine did the plain one with the already baked balls inside of cake. She told me it was nasty, dry, and not good at all.

ApplegumPam Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 5:27am
post #47 of 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by imagenthatnj 
 

Yes, I was wondering how we went from a design inside of a cake to a joconde. There was even a tutorial here at CC on a strawberry joconde I think. As for how the cakes with a design inside taste like, a friend of mine did the plain one with the already baked balls inside of cake. She told me it was nasty, dry, and not good at all.

I think its pretty poor form to think that just because your friends result was nasty, dry and not good that ALL cakes baked like this will be the same.

 

We don't even know for sure whether this IS the way that they do it - in the tutorials

I am GUESSING that like anything that imitators do.... they don't always get it right

The picture looks like all the cake has the same consistency ....I guess for $30 you could find out !   :P

cazza1 Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 6:29am
post #48 of 59

Now I'm probably being narky but I wondered what relevance living in the US had to anything.  The business is in selling tutorials, which is a worldwide phenomena.  I think I am p.o d cause there is a contest to win a craftsy class at the moment and it would not let me enter legitimately because I did not live in the states, even after I have spent a fortune buying nearly every cake decorating tutorial they have.

ApplegumPam Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 7:42am
post #49 of 59

I am confused cazza1 -  the people selling THIS tutorial are based in South Africa?

If you have a problem with Craftsy send them an email - I have had my own whinge there lately!  and not the same as yours! LOL

cazza1 Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 8:51am
post #50 of 59

The OP posted that because she lives in the States she wasn't going to be ruining this person's business because they were in South Africa.  I was just pointing out that the business of tutorials is not a country based thing but a world wide one.  I was in a bad mood so thought I should explain why I was being narky. Hence the reference to Craftsy.

BatterUpCake Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 10:42am
post #51 of 59

I think the $30 is a steal. One day when I get the rest down I really want to learn this technique and I will be glad to pay $30. It is art and it is beautiful

costumeczar Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 10:55am
post #52 of 59

A

Original message sent by Stitches

But what happened.............I got lost..........I thought we were talking about the designs inside the cakes, no? Now THAT'S a whole different story getting images through-out the inside of the cake. I always wonder what the cake tastes like....re-baking baked cake inside another cake?

Because once you know the one sponge technique, it's a pretty easy leap to figure out how to do the image all the way through the cake technique. They're related in the "do one image first them put batter around it" family. I agree with it being (most likely) less than appetizing, though, since it involves baking the cake twice, but it's interesting visually.

Think of the picture cakes like an upright sheet cake and you'll figure it out.

Or if you really can't figure it out by looking at it and you want to save yourself the time of trial and error, just buy his tutorial. ;)

MimiFix Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 11:09am
post #53 of 59
Quote:
Originally Posted by cazza1 
 

The OP posted that because she lives in the States she wasn't going to be ruining this person's business because they were in South Africa.  I was just pointing out that the business of tutorials is not a country based thing but a world wide one.

 

You're right cazza1. The OP used rationalization to explain her behavior. We see it here all the time.

 

From http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rationalize   to think about or describe something (such as bad behavior) in a way that explains it and makes it seem proper, more attractive, etc.

 

I once saw a thread about food businesses being required to have a license. Someone posted that since she doesn't handle food, only manipulates ingredients, there was no necessity for her to seek a food handling license.  

morganchampagne Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 11:31am
post #54 of 59

A^ woah. That's some crafty "manipulating" of the rules. But you are so right. I notice that people come up with all kinds of reasons why the rules are not applicable to them. And then when they cant they just ignore them. I notice it a lot in this business.

That technique looks time consuming to me, and maybe it's difficult maybe it's not. $30 is not unreasonable for that. Just my opinion OP

MustangMollie Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 11:57am
post #55 of 59

AFWIW I have bake several cakes with polka dots in them and they were yummy! Not sure it nasty at all! I did slightly unshakeable the polkadots, but it seems like they would have been on even for a regular bake. It's been a long time since I studied physics and chemistry but it seems like the outter (non image) batter has to get up to temp first before the prebaked Bayer can continue cooking ... Plus the prebaked Bayer would need to get up to two again too. This is probably why mine turned out just fine :)

kikiandkyle Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 12:43pm
post #56 of 59

AWow Mimi now that is stretching the truth - only manipulating ingredients!

jason_kraft Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 2:40pm
post #57 of 59

A

Original message sent by cazza1

I think I am p.o d cause there is a contest to win a craftsy class at the moment and it would not let me enter legitimately because I did not live in the states, even after I have spent a fortune buying nearly every cake decorating tutorial they have.

Different countries often have different rules about how contests can legally be run. Instead of trying to ensure compliance with the requirements of other countries, the contest is often limited to only the country with the largest target market.

costumeczar Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 2:55pm
post #58 of 59

Quote:

Originally Posted by MimiFix 
 

 

 

 

I once saw a thread about food businesses being required to have a license. Someone posted that since she doesn't handle food, only manipulates ingredients, there was no necessity for her to seek a food handling license.  

Oh that's a good one!

SystemMod1 Posted 23 Sep 2013 , 3:55pm
post #59 of 59

This thread has run its course.  Thank you for your participation.

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