BomCakes Posted 8 Jul 2013 , 2:43am
post #1 of

Trending around here is the idea that adding three dozen cupcakes to an order and shrinking the cake sizes will make a three tier cake "cheaper". Heavens to betsy! What a notion child!

The cupcake store in the next town gets$ 2.50 each all day long for their small, dry cupcakes. Apologies if that sounds uncharitable, but there it is. 

Truthfully, a cupcake is a serving of cake with twice as much frosting! I just told this girl I do not offer cupcakes, or cake pops for that reason, and with my cost for ingredients/gas/time/etc.  I cannot afford to make "Cheap-0-cakes" it has to be worth it for me also ..OR time to quit!

40 replies
shanter Posted 8 Jul 2013 , 2:49am
post #2 of

Good for you.

howsweet Posted 8 Jul 2013 , 4:18pm
post #3 of

I do it all the time. To offset the cost of a cake that's, say, $7 per serving, I will sell kitchen cake at $2.75 a serving or simple cupcakes for $2.50 each.

Jess155 Posted 8 Jul 2013 , 4:25pm
post #4 of

I don't think a cupcake is equal to a proper serving of cake.  I can make a 6" cake that serves 12 or with the same amount of batter I can make 24 cupcakes.  A cupcake is a half a serving of cake with a full serving of frosting. 

CWR41 Posted 8 Jul 2013 , 5:03pm
post #5 of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess155 

I don't think a cupcake is equal to a proper serving of cake.  I can make a 6" cake that serves 12 or with the same amount of batter I can make 24 cupcakes.  A cupcake is a half a serving of cake with a full serving of frosting. 


I do.  If you read any box of cake mix, it says it fills a 13x9, 2-8", 2-9", or 24 cupcakes.

Jess155 Posted 8 Jul 2013 , 5:14pm
post #6 of
Quote:
Originally Posted by CWR41 


I do.  If you read any box of cake mix, it says it fills a 13x9, 2-8", 2-9", or 24 cupcakes.

Right.  They are talking about the thin 1" tall pans for home use.  They are not talking about the 2" tall pans.  One cake mix makes 24 cupcakes or 2  6" round 2" tall to make 1  4" tall 6" round tier - which serves 12.

Annabakescakes Posted 8 Jul 2013 , 5:38pm
post #7 of

Well, I happened to have an 8" cake and cupcakes in my freezer, and weighed them just now. The cake weighed 998 grams, and the cupcake weighed 38 grams. So, 26 cupcakes for every 8" cake. (the cupcake was slightly rounded over the edge of the liner.) The cake was 2-4" tall layers.

CWR41 Posted 8 Jul 2013 , 6:15pm
post #8 of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess155 

Right.  They are talking about the thin 1" tall pans for home use.  They are not talking about the 2" tall pans.  One cake mix makes 24 cupcakes or 2  6" round 2" tall to make 1  4" tall 6" round tier - which serves 12.


Never heard of a 1" tall pan for home use.  Where's your source?

CWR41 Posted 8 Jul 2013 , 6:16pm
post #9 of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annabakescakes 

The cake was 2-4" tall layers.

You mean 2-2" tall layers?

lorieleann Posted 8 Jul 2013 , 7:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annabakescakes 

Well, I happened to have an 8" cake and cupcakes in my freezer, and weighed them just now. The cake weighed 998 grams, and the cupcake weighed 38 grams. So, 26 cupcakes for every 8" cake. (the cupcake was slightly rounded over the edge of the liner.) The cake was 2-4" tall layers.

 

you weighed them. in grams even. i officially have a cake crush on you thumbs_up.gif

Annabakescakes Posted 8 Jul 2013 , 7:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CWR41 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Annabakescakes 

The cake was 2-4" tall layers.

You mean 2-2" tall layers?

Yes, ma'am, I do ;-) Thank you for mentioning. I was going to write it was 4" of cake.....I should've proof-read!

Annabakescakes Posted 8 Jul 2013 , 7:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by lorieleann 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Annabakescakes 

Well, I happened to have an 8" cake and cupcakes in my freezer, and weighed them just now. The cake weighed 998 grams, and the cupcake weighed 38 grams. So, 26 cupcakes for every 8" cake. (the cupcake was slightly rounded over the edge of the liner.) The cake was 2-4" tall layers.

 

you weighed them. in grams even. i officially have a cake crush on you thumbs_up.gif

YES! That was my goal ;-)

BomCakes Posted 9 Jul 2013 , 5:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by howsweet 

I do it all the time. To offset the cost of a cake that's, say, $7 per serving, I will sell kitchen cake at $2.75 a serving or simple cupcakes for $2.50 each.

This girl doesn't want to give $75.00 for a 3 tier for 60.

Even the Pastry chefs cannot get 7.00 for a slice of cake here. The "Premiere" wedding cake shop in our town (over 20 years) is closing up shop this month because they can't make a go of it in this area at 3.75 per serving. It's farm country, nobody sees the value in it. Amish selling bread on every corner. There's a perfectly good Walmart right down the road. 

I guess I feel that I have something of quality to offer, made with luv and the best ingredients I can find. A custom made work of art and at a more than fair price. No discounts. No cupcakes. birthday.gif

cheatize Posted 9 Jul 2013 , 5:50am

When potential clients start talking like that, I start talking labor, overhead, and supply costs. Frankly, it's cheaper for the client if I make an 8 and a 12 inch cake and decorate it rather than messing with cupcake pans, liners, filling and filling and filling an icing bag, etc... plus the cost of a "show" cake. It doesn't make financial sense for them, they won't get a "wow" cake (which is why you go to a custom baker), and everyone will know you cheaped out on the cake part of the festivities.

FrostedMoon Posted 9 Jul 2013 , 6:02am

AI think customers feel like they are getting more for their money if they get cake AND cupcakes. For my last order I gave 3 options, a tiered cake, a 12" round or sheet cake, or a 10" and cupcakes. they chose the ten inch and simply frosted cupcakes even though it cost more. Go figure.

howsweet Posted 10 Jul 2013 , 12:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BomCakes 

This girl doesn't want to give $75.00 for a 3 tier for 60.

Even the Pastry chefs cannot get 7.00 for a slice of cake here. The "Premiere" wedding cake shop in our town (over 20 years) is closing up shop this month because they can't make a go of it in this area at 3.75 per serving. It's farm country, nobody sees the value in it. Amish selling bread on every corner. There's a perfectly good Walmart right down the road. 

I guess I feel that I have something of quality to offer, made with luv and the best ingredients I can find. A custom made work of art and at a more than fair price. No discounts. No cupcakes. birthday.gif


That's the way it is sometimes.  But I have to wonder why the 20 year old bakery took that long to figure out they can't make a go of it. I assume Walmart has been around all 20 years, so I'm wondering if it's the trend of every tom, dick and harry making cakes in their homes and charging too little.  Customers aren't going to pay more than they have to.

Rosie93095 Posted 10 Jul 2013 , 12:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by howsweet 


That's the way it is sometimes.  But I have to wonder why the 20 year old bakery took that long to figure out they can't make a go of it. I assume Walmart has been around all 20 years, so I'm wondering if it's the trend of every tom, dick and harry making cakes in their homes and charging too little.  Customers aren't going to pay more than they have to.

Where did you start making cakes? I resent the Tom dick and harry remark because we all started somewhere and it is probably at home.

I work out of a home bakery, serv safe food certified, insured and charge just as much as the "storefront" and other professional bakers do because I put out a good product and am proud of my custom work so I can. So please stop trying to imply that just because someone has a home bakery they are not worthy.

vgcea Posted 10 Jul 2013 , 1:37am

A

Original message sent by Rosie93095

Where did you start making cakes? I resent the Tom dick and harry remark because we all started somewhere and it is probably at home. I work out of a home bakery, serv safe food certified, insured and charge just as much as the "storefront" and other professional bakers do because I put out a good product and am proud of my custom work so I can. So please stop trying to imply that just because someone has a home bakery they are not worthy.

I haven't posted much recently because I can't be bothered to log in but I HAD to log in to respond to your post. THANK YOU! I've read so much jaw-flapping about home bakers recently and I think the generalization is getting 'much.' Not all home-bakers are ignorant, under-pricing, under-cutting gits.

Rosie93095 Posted 10 Jul 2013 , 1:58am

You are welcome. I just think that someone had to speak up.

sixinarow Posted 10 Jul 2013 , 2:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosie93095 

Where did you start making cakes? I resent the Tom dick and harry remark because we all started somewhere and it is probably at home.

I work out of a home bakery, serv safe food certified, insured and charge just as much as the "storefront" and other professional bakers do because I put out a good product and am proud of my custom work so I can. So please stop trying to imply that just because someone has a home bakery they are not worthy.

thumbs_up.gif

heartsnsync Posted 10 Jul 2013 , 2:15am

AI have had three inquiries just this week for getting cupcakes instead of a celebration cake because they wanted to save money. I priced it out for them and every time it ended up being about the same once I added on the specialty liners, wrappers, and fondant toppers they wanted. And don't even get me started on the people that think you can do decorated cookies for cheap prices and want you to make up a decorated batch so they can see what they will look like. :roll:

howsweet Posted 10 Jul 2013 , 2:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosie93095 

Where did you start making cakes? I resent the Tom dick and harry remark because we all started somewhere and it is probably at home.

I work out of a home bakery, serv safe food certified, insured and charge just as much as the "storefront" and other professional bakers do because I put out a good product and am proud of my custom work so I can. So please stop trying to imply that just because someone has a home bakery they are not worthy.

Why would you resent that I made that remark? Not much point in resenting a true fact. Obviously it doesn't even apply to you. I wasn't trying to imply anything beyond what I exactly stated - there is a huge number of home bakery start ups and practically all of them are undercharging, even after a year.

 

I started baking at home and still bake at home, but if there was a difference between me and the typical home baker when I started, it's that, with the exception of the first several cakes I made, I did not undercharge.  I didn't undercharge for at least two reasons: 1) I found out just how much hard work was involved  2) I realized it would be unconscionable to undercut bakeries.  I had respect for them as they were who i wanted to be. And I wanted to be respected in the caking community..

vgcea Posted 10 Jul 2013 , 4:12am

ABut we have established here on CC based on the types of threads that pop off that more times than not, the issue is one of ignorance rather than outright malicious undercutting. You started off on a good note, charging properly, good for you. But just as it would be unfair for someone to label you-- a home baker-- a/an *insert unsavory or derogatory term* simply because you work from home, it's unfair to just generalize that folks coming into the business via CFLs are "practically all" underchargers.

It just takes the merit out of any sound argument you might have and turns it into an unfounded rant at best. Sorry.

Annabakescakes Posted 10 Jul 2013 , 5:09am

I totally agree with Howsweet here, but before you hang me, let me give you some background. I have to say I bake out of my home, in a licensed commercial kitchen out in my garage, and even up until January, I was "undercutting" I just really felt that since I had lower overhead, it wasn't fair to charge what the closest bakery charges. Even after all the threads on here... I suppose I am a slow learner in some ways, and it sucks to admit it, since I have always prided myself in being a quick learner!

 

I remember, about 8 years ago, I was working in a bakery that also sold supplies, right out of the store room really. I was getting cake boards to flip cakes on, and there was a young girl who wanted a 3 tier topsy turvy cake for her daughter's first birthday. She had a consultation, and I overheard her say that no, she couldn't pay that much for cake, and she was not going to proceed with the order. I quickly wrote my number down and gave it to her and told her I would do it for less... WOW! right? and I did do it for less. And when I went to drop it off, the whole place had been converted to a freaking tropical paradise, in the middle of Bum-eff Podunk Kentucky. They spent over $3000 on actual tropical trees from the garden center, and flew in real leis and orchids from Hawaii. Un-fricken-believable... That was the first time my prices went up. The bakery I worked at charged $2.75 for buttercream, and I charged her a $1 a serving. I brought them up to $1.25 after that. Whoa, Nelly, right?

 

At the time, I barely had a pot to pee in, and was trying to raise my 4 year old twins and 1 1/2 year old daughter on my own. Child care help, food stamps, intermittent child support, and $6.00 an hour wasn't cutting it. I didn't have a computer and had never had one (yep I have only been using the internet for 7 years!) I certainly didn't have GPS in my 1995 Plymouth. I had them give me directions and I literally drove an hour to get to their house, for free delivery, and then, back, of course. 6 months later, I found out I had driven in a huge circle and it was less than 5 miles away, in the opposite direction. That was when I raised my prices to $1.50 a serving.

 

I was caught in the "I LOVE this, and I would never be able to pay what the bakeries charge" trap, and I suspect that is what most home bakers do. I have finally come to my senses, after having a couple trusted members on here check out my cakes, and my competition and give me the confidence to raise them. I still get orders, and I still love doing this, and no longer feel like $40 is such a huge amount of money, like it was back then! I can actually afford a few things now, and it is a great feeling! I think I will jack up my prices some more, dang-it!

 

But yes, most home bakers charge way less. A lot of them really suck at cakes too. That's why there are more than just sheet cakes from chain stores on CakeWrecks. And a lot of home bakers are amazing, and charge properly. HowSweet wasn't talking about them (you?) If the shoe fits, wear it, if it doesn't then stop letting your foot knock around in it! Congratulations, keep up the good work!

 

I suspect most people who don't make enough money will either quit, or eventually raise their prices, if they are good enough, but more will take their places. That is just the way it is. No offense meant, facts are facts.

vgcea Posted 10 Jul 2013 , 5:52am

A

Original message sent by Annabakescakes

I totally agree with Howsweet here, but before you hang me, let me give you some background. I have to say I bake out of my home, in a licensed commercial kitchen out in my garage, and even up until January, I was "undercutting" I just really felt that since I had lower overhead, it wasn't fair to charge what the closest bakery charges. Even after all the threads on here... I suppose I am a slow learner in some ways, and it sucks to admit it, since I have always prided myself in being a quick learner!

[B]And the above paragraph reinforces the fact that there are commercial bakers who for reasons best known to themselves choose to undercut. Undercutting is not the purview of the inexperienced or home baker alone.[/B]

I remember, about 8 years ago, I was working in a bakery that also sold supplies, right out of the store room really. I was getting cake boards to flip cakes on, and there was a young girl who wanted a 3 tier topsy turvy cake for her daughter's first birthday. She had a consultation, and I overheard her say that no, she couldn't pay that much for cake, and she was not going to proceed with the order. I quickly wrote my number down and gave it to her and told her I would do it for less... WOW! right? and I did do it for less. And when I went to drop it off, the whole place had been converted to a freaking tropical paradise, in the middle of Bum-eff Podunk Kentucky. They spent over $3000 on actual tropical trees from the garden center, and flew in real leis and orchids from Hawaii. Un-fricken-believable... That was the first time my prices went up. The bakery I worked at charged $2.75 for buttercream, and I charged her a $1 a serving. I brought them up to $1.25 after that. Whoa, Nelly, right?

At the time, I barely had a pot to pee in, and was trying to raise my 4 year old twins and 1 1/2 year old daughter on my own. Child care help, food stamps, intermittent child support, and $6.00 an hour wasn't cutting it. I didn't have a computer and had never had one (yep I have only been using the internet for 7 years!) I certainly didn't have GPS in my 1995 Plymouth. I had them give me directions and I literally drove an hour to get to their house, for free delivery, and then, back, of course. 6 months later, I found out I had driven in a huge circle and it was less than 5 miles away, in the opposite direction. That was when I raised my prices to $1.50 a serving.

I was caught in the "I LOVE this, and I would never be able to pay what the bakeries charge" trap, and I suspect that is what most home bakers do. I have finally come to my senses, after having a couple trusted members on here check out my cakes, and my competition and give me the confidence to raise them. I still get orders, and I still love doing this, and no longer feel like $40 is such a huge amount of money, like it was back then! I can actually afford a few things now, and it is a great feeling! I think I will jack up my prices some more, dang-it!

But yes, [U]most[/U] home bakers charge way less. A lot of them really suck at cakes too. [B]At least you're not making sweeping generalizations[/B] That's why there are more than just sheet cakes from chain stores on CakeWrecks. [B]I would hazard a guess that a majority of the wrecks on cake wrecks are from actual commercial bakeries than home bakers[/B]And a lot of home bakers are amazing, and charge properly. [B]Correct. That argument has value when the logos of it isn't killed by, again, sweeping generalizations[/B] HowSweet wasn't talking about them (you?) If the shoe fits, wear it, if it doesn't then stop letting your foot knock around in it! [B]Ahhh, Anna, you forget it is me. Sometimes I like to knock things around, especially if they're flappy-jawed or just plain irritating :D[/B] Congratulations, keep up the good work!

I suspect most people who don't make enough money will either quit, or eventually raise their prices, if they are good enough, but more will take their places. That is just the way it is. No offense meant, facts are facts.

Rosie93095 Posted 10 Jul 2013 , 12:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annabakescakes 

I totally agree with Howsweet here, but before you hang me, let me give you some background. I have to say I bake out of my home, in a licensed commercial kitchen out in my garage, and even up until January, I was "undercutting" I just really felt that since I had lower overhead, it wasn't fair to charge what the closest bakery charges. Even after all the threads on here... I suppose I am a slow learner in some ways, and it sucks to admit it, since I have always prided myself in being a quick learner!

 

I remember, about 8 years ago, I was working in a bakery that also sold supplies, right out of the store room really. I was getting cake boards to flip cakes on, and there was a young girl who wanted a 3 tier topsy turvy cake for her daughter's first birthday. She had a consultation, and I overheard her say that no, she couldn't pay that much for cake, and she was not going to proceed with the order. I quickly wrote my number down and gave it to her and told her I would do it for less... WOW! right? and I did do it for less. And when I went to drop it off, the whole place had been converted to a freaking tropical paradise, in the middle of Bum-eff Podunk Kentucky. They spent over $3000 on actual tropical trees from the garden center, and flew in real leis and orchids from Hawaii. Un-fricken-believable... That was the first time my prices went up. The bakery I worked at charged $2.75 for buttercream, and I charged her a $1 a serving. I brought them up to $1.25 after that. Whoa, Nelly, right?

 

At the time, I barely had a pot to pee in, and was trying to raise my 4 year old twins and 1 1/2 year old daughter on my own. Child care help, food stamps, intermittent child support, and $6.00 an hour wasn't cutting it. I didn't have a computer and had never had one (yep I have only been using the internet for 7 years!) I certainly didn't have GPS in my 1995 Plymouth. I had them give me directions and I literally drove an hour to get to their house, for free delivery, and then, back, of course. 6 months later, I found out I had driven in a huge circle and it was less than 5 miles away, in the opposite direction. That was when I raised my prices to $1.50 a serving.

 

I was caught in the "I LOVE this, and I would never be able to pay what the bakeries charge" trap, and I suspect that is what most home bakers do. I have finally come to my senses, after having a couple trusted members on here check out my cakes, and my competition and give me the confidence to raise them. I still get orders, and I still love doing this, and no longer feel like $40 is such a huge amount of money, like it was back then! I can actually afford a few things now, and it is a great feeling! I think I will jack up my prices some more, dang-it!

 

But yes, most home bakers charge way less. A lot of them really suck at cakes too. That's why there are more than just sheet cakes from chain stores on CakeWrecks. And a lot of home bakers are amazing, and charge properly. HowSweet wasn't talking about them (you?) If the shoe fits, wear it, if it doesn't then stop letting your foot knock around in it! Congratulations, keep up the good work!

 

I suspect most people who don't make enough money will either quit, or eventually raise their prices, if they are good enough, but more will take their places. That is just the way it is. No offense meant, facts are facts.

No, Anna, I am not going to hang you. I also agree in part with what Howsweet is saying, but I feel that too often people generalize their opinions instead of being clear about who or what they are criticizing. Yes, I know a lot of novice bakers under charge, but I don't think they do so maliciously, they probably "don't know what they don't know". I think that once we point out posts like Jason's pricing calculators etc. they learn something. If they don't learn, they are the ones who will eventually quit.

 

It just seems that in a lot of the forums lately, there are a few contributors who are way too negative and are not contributing constructively to help those who post questions. They posts seem to constantly get off track from the original post. That is what I guess bothered me originally.

I don't take it personally, because I know what I produce is a good product. although I have been baking cakes for over 10 years, I will continue to use CC as a place to learn more about my craft and improve my skills by listening to the more experienced baker on here. This is a great place to share:)

ellavanilla Posted 10 Jul 2013 , 5:44pm

I think it's likely everyone is a little defensive. For one thing, the myriad baking "reality" shows have taken the mystery out of cake baking, but what they've added back in is a whole lot of editing that makes baking look easy. In the intro of his show Duff Goldman says, "So I hired my friends..." What he doesn't say is that they are all art school graduates. 

 

That ridiculous cupcake wars doesn't show the weeks of planning that have gone into recipe development and practice before even one cupcake is made on the program, 

 

and you rarely see how many many many people are working on product at Buddy Valastro's bakery on Cake Boss. 

 

The downside is that a lot of people have rushed into the custom bakery biz without much thought to what they are doing. Even websites like Forbes and Entrepreneur suggest that a home bakery is a legit and profitable home business. "like to bake? start a home bakery" They never seem to have the facts on the costs and time it takes to really do the job well. 

 

So those of us (probably all of us) who have been putting in the sweat equity for years and years are a little resentful, right? My brother told me yesterday that he would rather go to the grocery store, and my sister legitimately thought that I could make her a 5 tiered wedding cake and still be her matron of honor because she kept the design, "simple."

 

We all know who the "every tom dick and harry's" are. I agree with Anna, don't wear those shoes if they don't fit.

 

 

edited to add:

 

I find it much easier and more profitable to make cupcakes, so I wouldn't mind if that's what the client wanted. Of course if they want it elaborate, the price goes up accordingly.

howsweet Posted 10 Jul 2013 , 9:29pm

I agree, cupcakes are easier and more profitable for me, too. And well put.

 

Annabakescakes, thanks for being able to see past my naked directness. I also want to say that your post took a lot of honest reflection. Most of us are afraid to look, myself included.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vgcea 

And the above paragraph reinforces the fact that there are commercial bakers who for reasons best known to themselves choose to undercut. Undercutting is not the purview of the inexperienced or home baker alone.

No commercial baker would undercut they way home bakers do. They can't. A commercial baker HAS to make money. I would rather compete with a commercial baker any day of the week. What are you referring to, loss leaders? Are you talking about grocery stores? I don't understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rosie93095 

No, Anna, I am not going to hang you. I also agree in part with what Howsweet is saying, but I feel that too often people generalize their opinions instead of being clear about who or what they are criticizing. Yes, I know a lot of novice bakers under charge, but I don't think they do so maliciously, they probably "don't know what they don't know". I think that once we point out posts like Jason's pricing calculators etc. they learn something. If they don't learn, they are the ones who will eventually quit.

 

It just seems that in a lot of the forums lately, there are a few contributors who are way too negative and are not contributing constructively to help those who post questions. They posts seem to constantly get off track from the original post. That is what I guess bothered me originally.

I don't take it personally, because I know what I produce is a good product. although I have been baking cakes for over 10 years, I will continue to use CC as a place to learn more about my craft and improve my skills by listening to the more experienced baker on here. This is a great place to share:)


A sweeping generalization can be right.  I have made plenty of very specific posts and  hardly anyone appreciates the specifics, either. No one wants to hear anything negative, but thankfully I'm not running for office. And just to be clear the only sweeping generalization I made was that home bakers generally undercharge as group --- I said,"practically all of them are undercharging, even after a year". That's a really dramatic thing to say, but I believe it.  Can I prove it?  No, but it's pretty obvious if postings on here and another board are representative of the situation. If you disagree, maybe point out how I'm wrong.

Annabakescakes Posted 11 Jul 2013 , 5:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by howsweet 

I agree, cupcakes are easier and more profitable for me, too. And well put.

 

Annabakescakes, thanks for being able to see past my naked directness. I also want to say that your post took a lot of honest reflection. Most of us are afraid to look, myself included.

 


A sweeping generalization can be right.  I have made plenty of very specific posts and  hardly anyone appreciates the specifics, either. No one wants to hear anything negative, but thankfully I'm not running for office. And just to be clear the only sweeping generalization I made was that home bakers generally undercharge as group --- I said,"practically all of them are undercharging, even after a year". That's a really dramatic thing to say, but I believe it.  Can I prove it?  No, but it's pretty obvious if postings on here and another board are representative of the situation. If you disagree, maybe point out how I'm wrong.

I am also very direct, and people can be quite shocked by it, and take it for rudeness. I actually find beating around the bush, or being treated with kid gloves, or being treated as a stupid infant on the verge of a fit, to be much more insulting!

 

I am big into DIY, and self reflection counts, right? lol

 

WHAT?? You're not running for office??

BatterUpCake Posted 11 Jul 2013 , 9:18pm

When you guys fight it ears this family apart bits at a time icon_sad.gif

Quote by @%username% on %date%

%body%