LovelyCakes4Us Posted 8 Jan 2013 , 10:10pm
post #1 of

AI've been to several bakery's that leave out cream cheese and sour cream butter cream cupcake and cakes out at room temp, and I'm certain two of them are NOT refrigerated display cases. One does warn about the cream cheese but not the chocolate sour cream butter cream needing to refrigerated..

So I guess my real question is how long can sour cream and cream cheese based butter creams sit out? Also if there is 2lbs of powder sugar in the recipe does this make them shelf stable? I can't stand putting cupcakes in the fridge over night they are dry in the morning.. Any tips on keeping the cupcakes moist while in the fridge over night?

18 replies
lilmissbakesalot Posted 9 Jan 2013 , 12:04am
post #2 of

Some cream cheese icings are shelf stable... it depends on the recipe.

 

The chocolate sour cream buttercream is a new one to me.  Unless they made ganache with sour cream?  I'd have to know the recipe.  If it is ganache (looks very dark and fudge-like) it can be left out.

LovelyCakes4Us Posted 9 Jan 2013 , 12:08am
post #3 of

AI'm pretty sure it was real cream cheese, will enough powder sugar make it shelf stable? And the recipe for sour cream butter cream is a new little secret I've found out about a award winning cupcake winners cupcake :) the secret is out haha!! Add about 1/4 cup to a half of cup to chocolate butter cream even white butter cream, its creamy and DELICIOUS!! Sense I've tried the sour cream butter cream I'm in love and trying to figure out how they keep it out so long??

lilmissbakesalot Posted 9 Jan 2013 , 12:18am
post #4 of

How much buttercream do you add that 1/4 cup to?  A little dairy won't matter and can be left out.  I add heavy cream to powdered sugar based buttercream to thin it and it is shelf stable. 

Stitches Posted 9 Jan 2013 , 2:20am
post #5 of

It's not uncommon for bakeries to use frosting's supplied from large manufactures like Bakemark or Dawn. They sell cream cheese frosting in buckets that are shelf stable. I don't know what the real ingredients are but it doesn't taste like real cream cheese frosting to me. It's like whip cream filled cream puffs that bakeries leave out in un-refrigerated display cases...............real whip cream requires refrigeration, fake stuff doesn't.

 

You can't add enough sugar to real cream cheese to make it shelf stable.

FromScratchSF Posted 9 Jan 2013 , 6:29am
post #6 of

Simple - whatever they are making is shelf stable.  The American National Standards Institute (guidelines used by most health departments) says something is shelf stable if it has a water activity of  .85 or below, or a pH of 4.6 and above.  Science proves that under these conditions, the bacteria that causes food born illness cannot grow and thrive.  When you add pounds of powdered sugar to cream cheese, you are drastically lowering the water activity level way under .85 (sugar eats water by osmosis).  That's why, even with a little cream or sour cream added, ABC icing is shelf stable.

 

So is ganache - I don't know why people here even question this!  There is so much sugar in chocolate and the pH is so high that its' completely shelf stable.

 

Storefronts in the US have a manager's certificate and food handler's cards from the ANSI (just like I do) and have passed a health department inspection along with submitting recipes that meet HD guidelines (just like I did).  I think this is pretty universal state to state but I could be wrong.

 

Home businesses are a different animal.

 

Hope this helps!

LovelyCakes4Us Posted 9 Jan 2013 , 1:29pm
post #7 of

A

Original message sent by FromScratchSF

Simple - whatever they are making is shelf stable.  The American National Standards Institute (guidelines used by most health departments) says something is shelf stable if it has a water activity of  .85 or below, or a pH of 4.6 and above.  Science proves that under these conditions, the bacteria that causes food born illness cannot grow and thrive.  When you add pounds of powdered sugar to cream cheese, you are drastically lowering the water activity level way under .85 (sugar eats water by osmosis).  That's why, even with a little cream or sour cream added, ABC icing is shelf stable.

Thanks now I don't have to buy nasty fake powdered cream cheese! Yippy! safe serve this month, I'm glad to know that my cream cheese is shelf stable...

LovelyCakes4Us Posted 9 Jan 2013 , 1:32pm
post #8 of

A

You can't add enough sugar to real cream cheese to make it shelf stable. [/quo

Well now I'm a bit confused...

lilmissbakesalot Posted 9 Jan 2013 , 9:53pm
post #9 of

FromScratchSF is right... 100%.

 

Now not ALL recipes will get you to that magic number for water activity, and you should get your recipe tested by the state lab to confirm.  The state lab here does it for $15.00 per recipe. 

Cakepro Posted 9 Jan 2013 , 10:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovelyCakes4Us 


Thanks now I don't have to buy nasty fake powdered cream cheese! Yippy! safe serve this month, I'm glad to know that my cream cheese is shelf stable...

 

Yes, absolutely get your recipe tested before you declare your cream cheese icing shelf stable and store it in the temperature danger zone.  You could make someone really, really ill.

FromScratchSF Posted 9 Jan 2013 , 10:33pm

Clarification - most ABC recipes call for 1/2 lb cream cheese, 1/2 lb butter (or shortening) + 2 lbs PS (or around those ratios).  I'm not aware of any icing recipe that is 100% cream cheese + powdered sugar.  That would be gross and unworkable I think.  

 

ABC really isn't my area of expertise so I don't really know recipe variations or all the different things people do with it. but I think they all start with the above base recipe.

lilmissbakesalot Posted 9 Jan 2013 , 11:48pm

No... that wouldn't be workable at all (the all cream cheese and PS), and I don't know anyone who does that... LOL.  I don't use ABC much either, but I have in the past, and I have also made cream cheese icing much like the ratio you posted. 

 

I believe Earlene Moore has a CC icing on her site that is shelf stable. I found a site with the recipe here http://www.texascottagefoodlaw.com/Resources/Recipes/CreamCheeseButtercreamEarlene.aspx

BakingIrene Posted 10 Jan 2013 , 1:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by FromScratchSF 

Simple - whatever they are making is shelf stable.  The American National Standards Institute (guidelines used by most health departments) says something is shelf stable if it has a water activity of  .85 or below, or a pH of 4.6 and above.  Science proves that under these conditions, the bacteria that causes food born illness cannot grow and thrive.  When you add pounds of powdered sugar to cream cheese, you are drastically lowering the water activity level way under .85 (sugar eats water by osmosis).  That's why, even with a little cream or sour cream added, ABC icing is shelf stable.

 

So is ganache - I don't know why people here even question this!  There is so much sugar in chocolate and the pH is so high that its' completely shelf stable.

 

Well I have to correct some of the above.  My education taught me that bacteria like pH to be higher than 4--the closer it is to 7, the happier the little buggers are to eat and reproduce.  So I went to the link at Earlene's recipe in this thread. Thanks for posting it.

 

First of all, what is permitted to a cottage food operator varies from state to state.  The recipe link is ONLY good for the State of Texas.

 

Second: here is a link to the link to TX regulations http://www.texascottagefoodlaw.com/Resources/FoodTesting.aspx  and the regs themselves 

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CB0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dshs.state.tx.us%2Ffoodestablishments%2Fpdf%2FTFERFIMSeptember282006.pdf&ei=3xzeTpPsKsSFsgK5so30Dw&usg=AFQjCNEnMryhl3x2kED2FVTjhX-99_32sA&sig2=0rEM1DaYKlzZscBVF4sJAQ

 

I downloaded the rules and read pages 11-13 carefully:  correct info is that a LOW pH is what protects against bacterial growth. The pH and water activity must both be LOWER than set limits, as you can see from the two tables on page 13.  That is, FOR THE STATE OF TEXAS.

 

FYI a partial answer to the original question: I have read the ingredients lists of commercial icings, and they contain potassium sorbate and other chemical preservatives. 

 

Commercial sour cream naturally contains a fair bit of acid, and when you load it with sugar, it may comply with safe rules for commercial restaurants and bakeries but NOT some state cottage food regs.

 

I will finally say that food establishments usually replenish room-temperature products every few hours from chilled products stored in production fridges.  Food put out for sale must be covered if not packaged, and must comply with holding temperature times in some local jurisdictions.  

lilmissbakesalot Posted 10 Jan 2013 , 10:11pm

Those regulations are the same as they are here in NH, or at least they were back when I was still at home.  I would imagine that most states are the same as you aren't going to change the fact that bacteria don't like those conditions from state to state.  No one has said to not take a look at your state's regulations... this was just to answer the question as to if either options could be shelf stable.  The answer was yes... but that not all recipes are created equally.

 

The sour cream is added to regular butter cream so it's not just sour cream and sugar... it's shortening, butter, sugar, salt, and a wee bit of sour cream.  And the cream cheese is also added to regular buttercream... nowhere in this thread has anyone ever suggested that people use cream cheese or sour cream alone mixed with sugar and I don't know why people keep saying things like you can't add enough sugar to cream cheese/sour cream to make it shelf stable... that was never questioned. 

LovelyCakes4Us Posted 11 Jan 2013 , 3:35pm

A I don't know why people keep saying things like you can't add enough sugar to cream cheese/sour cream to make it shelf stable... that was never questioned.  [/quote]

I was wondering the same thing lol! I clearly wouldn't use just powder sugar and crea? Cheese... ICKY Butter,Shorting,Sea salt,Powder sugar,Vanilla beans,ect ect then sour cream/cream cheese delish!!

mrsgreshcakes Posted 6 Aug 2013 , 5:26pm

AHas anyone found a cream cheese frosting recipe.whose ph is below 4.6 and the aw is below .85 that California has accepted for CFOs? I've submitted a few recipes to the State but havent gotten a response.

Dayti Posted 7 Aug 2013 , 4:28pm

Would this one work for them? http://www.texascottagefoodlaw.com/Resources/Recipes/TraditionalCreamCheeseFrosting.aspx

ddaigle Posted 7 Aug 2013 , 4:47pm

This is one of the brands that some bakery's buy that does not need refrigerated.  

 

 

 

 

 

 
Spedzie Posted 19 Feb 2014 , 12:26am

You have three very different questions with similar answers.

 

Lets start with some food science principles, non-heat treated foods have a variety of ways that they become "safe". By water activity, water phase acitity, low pH, high acid content, and dehydrstion or lack of water (moisture in the food).

 

Cream cheese by itself has a pH around 4.2 or a low pH, when you add one pound of sugar to about 8 ounces of cream cheese yo drop the moisture content from the normal range of 55% to something much less as the sugar will bind the moisture. There are a combination of things that will allow cream cheese frosting from causing food borne pathogens, the low pH and the low water activity caused by the addition of sugar. By placing the cupcakes in the refrigerator you drop the temperature and when you bring them out of the cooler atmosphere moisture will collect on the surface creating a micro-enviroment for bacteria to grow. In this case refrigeration will harm the cupcakes.

 

Sour cream frosting; Sour cream is naturally acidic, as it "sours" it increases in acid and the pH drops and the lactic acid increases, the addition of sugar drop the available moisture and thus you have a higher water phase acidity which is good. Unfortunately sour cream has such a high moisture content that you will have to add two to one or more of sugar by weight to get a satisfactory water phase acidity that the sweetness may be over powering. There is a chance that you can get mold growth on sour cream frosting if not refrigerated or the sugar content is not sufficiently high.

 

Butter cream frosting: Butter is a high fat very low moisture food bacteria does not grow in fats in and oils, they go rancid. Rancid is a food science term for the development of off flavors not spoilage in fats and oils. When you add sugar to butter you have a very low water activity product and the frosting will not spoil. let me say this again the product will not spoil with out the addition of moisture (water), it is impossible. The issue will be that that butter cream frosting will get soft as butter gets soft when it sets at room temperature. So refrigeration is done to keep the butter cream semi-solid.

 

Now for dry cup cakes, they are just like baked breads, they can stay out if kept in a container, however they are best kept moist by basting with a one to one simple syrup and then placing in the refrigerator overnight.

 

As for my experience, I worked in food research for over 30 years for a very large food company. Presently retired but am a silent partner in a successful cakery in southern California.

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