Danielle_loves_cake Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 2:48pm
post #1 of

Some have said that this isn't a place for 'puppies and rainbows'. Well, why can't it be?

I used to come on Cake Central to relax, enjoy chating about cake decorating and looking at awesome pictures. This is the first time I've been on here on six months and yes, I've changed my profile name. It saves some looking at my old forum posts and telling me 'oh it wasn't that bad' or 'you're too sensitive' or blaming me for being someone else. My posts have never been in the business forum and I was made to feel horrible about something. I won't say what as it may start all over again. (All I can say is that I've never been rude or insensitive to anyone).

Some are using the excuse that all internet forums are like that and people just need to have tougher skin, well let's make Cake Central different. I miss it very much and I'd love to be able to comfortably post again. Some say they enjoy the drama here. It is enjoyable until you decide to make a post, then not so much!

Honestly though, if anyone needed a serious answer to a business question, they would just ask their lawyer or accountant. I don't it's necessary to type paragraphs and paragraphs of information for people (and hiden within those paragraphs, some condescending tone and rudeness). Some spend so much time and energy here answering forum posts all day, maybe that time and energy should be put into your business instead. Just shorten your responses, keep them light and factual, and perhaps point people in the right direction instead.

Thank you for listening to me. I'm hoping things will change around here. I know I'm not the only one that feels this way too. icon_smile.gif

115 replies
debidehm Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 3:04pm
post #2 of

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FromScratchSF Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 3:32pm
post #3 of

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jason_kraft Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 3:33pm
post #4 of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielle_loves_cake

Some spend so much time and energy here answering forum posts all day, maybe that time and energy should be put into your business instead. Just shorten your responses, keep them light and factual, and perhaps point people in the right direction instead.



People who spend time and energy answering forum posts do so because they enjoy helping others. Artificially shortening responses (which would usually involve leaving out important information) doesn't seem like it would help anyone.

If someone is being rude you can just report them, ignore the post, and move on.

You are certainly free to continue your quest for more puppies and rainbows here, but I don't think telling people to stop trying to be thorough when answering questions is the right way to do that, there's no reason they can't coexist. If you see a long informative post you don't want to read, don't read it.

Danielle_loves_cake Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 3:55pm
post #5 of

FromScratch: LOVE it! Thanks for that, lol! icon_lol.gif

Jason,
I just want people to respectfully answer the questions being asked. Some people, including yourself, offer excellent, helpful advice. Some others do not. But sometimes I do see you defending people that are condescending and rude. I wish you'd stop doing that. Sometimes it feels like being ganged up on.

icer101 Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 4:10pm
post #6 of

Thank you, FromScratchSF, for the beautiful pic. And yes, you are one that always answers very nice. I always look forward to you helping on this forum.

jason_kraft Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 4:15pm
post #7 of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielle_loves_cake

But sometimes I do see you defending people that are condescending and rude.



Unfortunately condescension and rudeness are in the eye of the beholder and can be read in to a post that may not have had that intent due to the impersonal nature of this medium.

When I defend people, it's because others have posted personal attacks against them instead of addressing the topic being discussed. If people stop posting personal attacks, there would be no need to defend anyone.

carmijok Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 4:42pm
post #8 of

I love puppies, rainbows AND unicorns...but I they're not always the answer I'm looking for if I wish to learn.

I'd rather have someone be honest about something than be told a lie for the sake of harmony. Who benefits when that happens? Sure there are ways to tell someone something without dashing their dreams, but seriously...there have been people on here who have wanted opinions on their cakes (that someone else is paying for) and I've seen 'rainbow' answers when they didn't deserve it. Now...would I say 'hey your cake looks like my aunt sat on it' ? No. But I wouldn't lie and say what a great job they did. If they're wanting an opinion I'd give it honestly but with some constructive ideas to improve. Something like 'you've obviously worked hard on this but I see some areas of improvement such as....yada yada yada.' Believe it or not there are those that would take that as an 'attack'.

I see posted cake photos that scream for constructive criticism...like mentioning that a ribbon around the base of the cake board would have finished off the look...or that they need to work on smoothing their buttercream--here's a youtube link to a really good tutorial But if someone is not asking for an opinion then I feel compelled to keep my mouth shut and comment on the positive aspects of the cake only. Then I wonder if that is fair to the person who posted it..maybe they would appreciate some real feedback. I know I do.

Honesty ain't always pretty...but it's important if you really want to improve your skills. I think the problem here is that when someone is--shall we say--'blunt' with their answer, then someone else feels the need to respond to that poster instead of letting it go and answering the OP instead. Keeping comments focused on the original question would help stop a lot of the puppy stomping. IMO!
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Danielle_loves_cake Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 6:02pm
post #9 of

I'm not really talking about constructive criticism, although I don't think it should be given unless asked for. I'm talking about someone saying inappropriate things often... it's not just regarding business either. Recently someone told another that the product they are using is more-or-less crap, and went on and on about it, which then caused an argument. The same person believes that American Buttercream is horrible and that baking from scratch is superior. That's totally fine to have these opinions, but don't put them all over the place when it's not asked for.

Also, don't get me wrong, there are some amazingly helpful experienced people on here and I love reading long responses from them as you can learn so much. Those people are what makes this website so wonderful. It's just a handful that are causing problems, and unfortunately this handful seems to be on here a lot!

By the way I have a sweet little brand new kitten sleeping on my chest right now. He's only eight weeks old. So let's call it 'kittens and rainbows' from now on, lol. icon_smile.gif
Can I get a picture of a kitten now maybe, lol?

Danielle_loves_cake Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 6:06pm

And Carmijok, I'm so sorry to hear about your kitty. I read it in a recent post. Was it the one in your picture with the melon on his head? That picture is so cute!

Kendall88 Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 7:22pm

Agree with you totally Danielle.....although it does not necessarily mean it has to be puppies and rainbows......

No one is saying you have to pat people on the head and say 'oh wow that cake is the best I have ever seen'.....there is a way to say things nicely and without being rude... Do you tell your friend who asks for the opinion 'does my bum look big in this' (as she excitedly tries on her new dress) "holy cow woman, you need to get that big arse of yours to the gym ASAP...and take the rest of that body with you"..... I doubt it....it would more likely be "I love the colour but I really think a different style would suit you better".... No lying (or sugar coating for that matter)....but no rudeness either.

No one starts off an expert but you will get better with practise and knowledge. I for one have learnt heaps off this site in such a short time....there are some really nice people on here that will go out of their way to help a 'newbie'. That being said there are people on here who are just rude and use a lot of the threads to constantly tell us how important and successful their businesses are (not sure how considering the amount of time they are on here) - who cares....the thread was nothing to do with that....but it always seems to come back to that.....

I also vote for more 'puppies and rainbows' - don't mind a bit of 'Rain' with that rainbow but 'cyclones and storms' are not really called for...... Thats my two cents for what it s worth icon_smile.gif

jason_kraft Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 7:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielle_loves_cake

I'm not really talking about constructive criticism, although I don't think it should be given unless asked for. I'm talking about someone saying inappropriate things often... it's not just regarding business either. Recently someone told another that the product they are using is more-or-less crap, and went on and on about it, which then caused an argument. The same person believes that American Buttercream is horrible and that baking from scratch is superior. That's totally fine to have these opinions, but don't put them all over the place when it's not asked for.



It takes two people to start an argument. If someone posts something you don't agree with (note: this is not the same thing as posting something "inappropriate") you can either post why you disagree with it (in which case you may end up having to defend your position), or ignore it. Same story if you don't want to hear about others talking about their businesses, you are free to skip over those posts.

It seems a little restrictive to ask people not to post their opinions on a public forum except in response to direct questions just because you don't want to read them. Some of the most interesting and informative threads I've seen on CC resulted from back-and-forth discussions that focused on a topic tangentially related to the original thread.

Danielle_loves_cake Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 8:40pm

I don't mind at all when a thread goes off topic. It can actually be kind of fun! I just don't like it when someone takes it off topic just to be rude and condescending (or as Kendall said, to tell us how important and successful their businesses are). I also don't mind people disagreeing with one another as long as it done respectfully. For example Jason, you and I had a disagreement once but we did it with respect. And because of that #1 I don't even remember what it is about and #2 I still respect you and value your opinion.

jason_kraft Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 10:13pm

I'm not sure I understand...it sounds like you want people to stop being "rude and condescending", but as I mentioned above rudeness and condescension can be read into posts that were written without that intent, so I don't see how people can avoid the possibility of someone subjectively reading it into their posts unless they walk on eggshells.

Are we also supposed to avoid talking about our businesses because others might be envious (or whatever reason it is upsetting)? Or is it only OK to talk about businesses that have failed? Or can people bring up their businesses only in certain situations, and if so who judges which situations are appropriate?

As for people posting off-topic just to be "rude and condescending", that rarely happens in my experience, since if someone posts something OT they usually have a point to make. In fact I've found that the worst posts are usually people responding with insults and personal attacks.to negativity they've read into someone else's post.

It sounds like you are asking for a lot of accommodation from this community, and frankly I think you are going to be disappointed. If the relatively tame discourse here is upsetting to you and you can't ignore the small minority of offending posts, you may be better off participating in smaller communities on Facebook, creating your own forum or blog so you can control and moderate the content, and/or sticking to browsing pictures here.

carmijok Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 11:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielle_loves_cake

And Carmijok, I'm so sorry to hear about your kitty. I read it in a recent post. Was it the one in your picture with the melon on his head? That picture is so cute!


'

Thanks. No... that's an internet picture. My cat was black with gold eyes. She would have never allowed a lime on her head! icon_lol.gif

Danielle_loves_cake Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 11:09pm

Actually I do enjoy hearing about others' businesses very much. But bragging about your business and all your credentials over and over is kind of a put off. I wouldn't say that I'm envious of anyone's business here. There are a lot of people I admire though. We have some amazing decorators on Cake Central!

I guess we will have to agree to disagree about the rudeness and nastiness here then because I do see it and others obviously see it, but you do not. I certainly do not think it's something us 'sensitive' people are seeing that's not really there.

I don't think I'm asking for a lot of accomodation from this community. I'm just asking for a select few to be more respectful, especially to Newbies, so that everyone is comfortable posting and chatting on the forums.

jason_kraft Posted 12 Oct 2012 , 11:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielle_loves_cake

I'm just asking for a select few to be more respectful, especially to Newbies, so that everyone is comfortable posting and chatting on the forums.



Agreed there, but the "select few" you're thinking of are probably different from the "select few" I'm thinking of who need to show more respect.

Kendall88 Posted 13 Oct 2012 , 3:10am

Jason I find it very telling that you automatically think people are 'envious' because we mentioned we are sick of hearing about a persons business.....jumping to this conclusion could maybe lead me to believe 'you' get a teeny tiny bit envious of people icon_eek.gif ....but then again, I'm no shrink icon_wink.gif.

I simply mentioned that I am sick of the SAME person/s 'banging on' about how successful,knowledgable, educated they are, their crap don't stink, etc, etc and basically if anyone has a different opinion they are WRONG....

I think this is what Danielle is referring to as well....but once again, I could be wrong as.....apparently every so often I am....damn it's one of the problems with being human.

I wish every happiness to anyone who is successful in life....damn there should be more of it as heavens knows there are so many out there that are really struggling (and this is where it is nice to have compassion.....another quality so many of us are lacking in today's society)..... What is annoying is how they just go on and on about it - no matter what the thread is about.....kind of gets a little bit to the point of "who freaking cares, we all know you are the best, chuck out the rest (you can say that last bit in a sing song-y voice if you like......because it sounds kinda cool and it does get a little bit like pre school on here icon_wink.gif )

Me thinks I am definitely thinking of the same select few as the OP..... icon_rolleyes.gif

ellawillow Posted 13 Oct 2012 , 3:28am

Hahaha - Kendall it is true, you do automatically want to sing that line. I have nothing to add of any importance, just could tell you were Aussie. Your reply made me both smile and nod my head....same weird sense of humour icon_lol.gif (Oh and another LEO I see.....good stuff).....

Quote:
Originally Posted by carmijok

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielle_loves_cake

And Carmijok, I'm so sorry to hear about your kitty. I read it in a recent post. Was it the one in your picture with the melon on his head? That picture is so cute!

'

Thanks. No... that's an internet picture. My cat was black with gold eyes. She would have never allowed a lime on her head! icon_lol.gif




I am surprised anyone got a lime on any cats head....being 'supreme creatures' that they are it must have been a dog behind it icon_wink.gif

jason_kraft Posted 13 Oct 2012 , 5:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendall88

I simply mentioned that I am sick of the SAME person/s 'banging on' about how successful,knowledgable, educated they are, their crap don't stink, etc, etc and basically if anyone has a different opinion they are WRONG....



I was just trying to figure out why a few people are so concerned when others talk about their businesses. If it's just that they are tired of hearing about it, it's a little puzzling to me why they continue to read the posts instead of skipping over them. There are new people joining CC all the time, and just because you have heard something before doesn't mean everyone has.

It's also quite a leap from someone bringing up their business and educational experience to address a topic (in my experience it isn't brought up for no reason) to them saying "everyone else's opinions are wrong". If anything this thread is more a fit to the latter, as OP is asking other people to conform to her standards of inferred rudeness/condescension as well as how often one is allowed to talk about their business.

Danielle_loves_cake Posted 13 Oct 2012 , 5:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kendall88

I simply mentioned that I am sick of the SAME person/s 'banging on' about how successful,knowledgable, educated they are, their crap don't stink, etc, etc and basically if anyone has a different opinion they are WRONG....

I think this is what Danielle is referring to as well....but once again, I could be wrong as.....apparently every so often I am....damn it's one of the problems with being human.




This is exactly what I am referring to, thank you Kendall! icon_smile.gif

Danielle_loves_cake Posted 13 Oct 2012 , 5:43am

[quote="jason_kraft"]I was just trying to figure out why a few people are so concerned when others talk about their businesses. If it's just that they are tired of hearing about it, it's a little puzzling to me why they continue to read the posts instead of skipping over them. There are new people joining CC all the time, and just because you have heard something before doesn't mean everyone has./quote]

It's not just the bragging about their business, it's a slew of other things as well, as I mentioned. The reason it's hard to skip over them is because this person answers my posts which have nothing to do with business (they are more to do with baking, buttercreams,etc.) And sometimes this person has good advice mixed in with the condenscending attitude so I tend to quickly read it. Also, when someone demeans you, it's hard to ignore and just 'skip over' it.

I'm wondering if you're reading the same posts that we are or if you're perhaps 'playing dumb' to get me riled up. Perhaps you're hoping I'll mention specific incidents and then you can acuse me of 'attacking' people'. icon_confused.gif [/u]

Danielle_loves_cake Posted 13 Oct 2012 , 5:45am

By the way, I'm not sure if I'm doing the quoting correctly. Sorry if I've messed it up. I was just trying to take part of a quote instead of the entire thing. Is that even possible?

jason_kraft Posted 13 Oct 2012 , 6:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielle_loves_cake

It's not just the bragging about their business, it's a slew of other things as well, as I mentioned.



Which other things, aside from the subjectively inferred rudeness and condescension?

Quote:
Quote:

The reason it's hard to skip over them is because this person answers my posts which have nothing to do with business (they are more to do with baking, buttercreams,etc.) And sometimes this person has good advice mixed in with the condenscending attitude so I tend to quickly read it.



Well then you have a choice to make: if the inferred attitude upsets you more than you value their advice, skip their posts. If not, suck it up and read it. People usually don't change their posting style, it tends to be as unique as a fingerprint and can even be used to identify alternate IDs.

Quote:
Quote:

Also, when someone demeans you, it's hard to ignore and just 'skip over' it.



Yes, it's hard, but it's the right thing to do. When people insult me here (I have a small fan club) I will typically remove the offending part of their post in my reply or just ignore the post completely.

Quote:
Quote:

I'm wondering if you're reading the same posts that we are



I'm wondering the same thing. I have an idea of who you may be referring to, and while this person has a direct, no-nonsense posting style I don't read in condescension or bragging. I can see how one could interpret it as somewhat rude if you aren't used to people not pulling their punches, but that's how the business world works, and asking others to compromise their style because you don't like it doesn't seem fair to me.

Also there's nothing wrong IMO with pointing to specific incidents and explaining why you felt the posts were rude/etc. That's not a personal attack at all, since you are sharing your opinion on the content that was posted, as opposed to the poster.

And BTW your quote didn't work because the close quote tag was missing a bracket, it should be [/quote].

Kendall88 Posted 13 Oct 2012 , 6:24am

[quote="Danielle_loves_cake"]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_kraft

I was just trying to figure out why a few people are so concerned when others talk about their businesses. If it's just that they are tired of hearing about it, it's a little puzzling to me why they continue to read the posts instead of skipping over them. There are new people joining CC all the time, and just because you have heard something before doesn't mean everyone has./quote]

It's not just the bragging about their business, it's a slew of other things as well, as I mentioned. The reason it's hard to skip over them is because this person answers my posts which have nothing to do with business (they are more to do with baking, buttercreams,etc.) And sometimes this person has good advice mixed in with the condenscending attitude so I tend to quickly read it. Also, when someone demeans you, it's hard to ignore and just 'skip over' it.

I'm wondering if you're reading the same posts that we are or if you're perhaps 'playing dumb' to get me riled up. Perhaps you're hoping I'll mention specific incidents and then you can acuse me of 'attacking' people'. icon_confused.gif [/u]






Lol - funny you should say that Danielle - was just wondering exactly the same thing - Jason you are just repeating yourself......are you reading the same posts as us or are you just seeing what you want to see?? Can we just clarify once and for all that I or the OP have nothing against people talking about their business.....can you just see what I have typed.....or do we need to go back and forth and just keep writing the same stuff...

Now I would type slow if it would help you get the 'jist' of what I am saying....it is annoying when people (yes the same few) constantly remind us how important they are.......and I am talking about in threads that have nothing to do with their business..... Please do not try and put words into my mouth Jason in the hope someone else will jump on and think I am attacking them. And FYI I do skip these posts when I see them.....does not mean I don't cringe and involuntarily 'dry reach' and think......here we go again!!!!! icon_cry.gif

Anyway as you have admitted you are very puzzled by things....and how could you not be....it is some unGodly hour of the morning over there....shouldn't you be sleeping or something, no wonder it is all puzzling.....I think it is best we just agree to disagree.... thumbs_up.gif

Danielle_loves_cake Posted 13 Oct 2012 , 6:35am

Jason,
I knew that you were going to ask me to post specific incidents. I won't do that because, you and I both know, it will add to the drama. I see now that I was right, you are trying to rile me up. I'm pretty disappointed as I did have quite a bit of respect for you.
Your comment 'that's how the business world works' is not an excuse for people to act this way. Many on Cake Central are hobby bakers who don't even own businesses, so why should they have to be subjected to people 'pulling punches and the real business world' (keeping in mind that this is also happening in the non-business forum).
Thank you for your help with the quoting.
Danielle

jason_kraft Posted 13 Oct 2012 , 2:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielle_loves_cake

I knew that you were going to ask me to post specific incidents.



If you read my post more carefully, I didn't ask you to post specific incidents. You said that I was trying to trick you somehow into posting specifics so I could accuse you of attacking people (not sure why you would think that) and I replied that there's nothing wrong with posting specifics as I don't consider that a personal attack.

Quote:
Quote:

I won't do that because, you and I both know, it will add to the drama.



It's pretty transparent now that you were targeting a "select few" people by posting this thread, so it doesn't really matter if you post specifics or not (and I don't really care either way). Perhaps this issue would have been better handled by sending private messages to the individuals in question to avoid the drama you've already generated.

Quote:
Quote:

I see now that I was right, you are trying to rile me up.



I'm sorry if you feel "riled up", I thought we were just discussing and clarifying the details of this topic. If even this discussion is upsetting you, I'm not really sure how much softening of tone by the "select few" will help.

Quote:
Quote:

Your comment 'that's how the business world works' is not an excuse for people to act this way.



Agreed. Ideally everyone would post perfectly so there would be no chance to read in any rudeness, but they don't. Since you can't really change people's posting styles, your options are to skip content by the offending posters, read it and deal with the rudeness, or leave the forum altogether.

For example, I thought much of Kendall's last post was rude and unnecessary, so I'm simply not replying to it. (FWIW I usually sleep between 11:30pm-7:30am, and that post was written at 11pm.)

vgcea Posted 13 Oct 2012 , 6:47pm

cowboy.gif All we need is looove...love... love.

Seriously though, some questions are just begging for a virtual slap upside the head. I just read one about someone contemplating a 6 tier cake and not even knowing what supports are required.

Some will come in here and argue that the individual is a newbie, so he/she should be spoon-fed. NO. There are too many resources online and in books for folks to be walking around completely ignorant and waiting to be fed information. Now, nobody knows everything there is to know about caking. There will be times when even the pros want to know how a specific design was executed but there are some things that should be basic knowledge before one accepts to do some cakes; things like understanding that a six tier cake is not just cake piled on top of cake.

Sometimes I try to answer a thread question by doing a Google search, and come up with so many appropriate hits that I just have to shut the page down and SMH because it's obvious the OP didn't take the initiative for a simple Google search. For example, pricing has been discussed to pieces on CC, there are literally HUNDREDS of posts on pricing, many of them saying the same thing. A simple search would answer the question but noooo, folks want to be bottle-fed the info. Other times when I'm in the mood I post a response with multiple links (I have a number of those multi-link posts floating around).

I'm not the most patient person, and more times than not, I try to exercise some restraint (like not responding to that thread) but man, some threads are just asking for it. Le sigh.

DeniseNH Posted 13 Oct 2012 , 7:30pm

We're all adults, we know who the bullies on the playground are and we just ignore them, take the constructive information we need and move on.

Kendall88 Posted 14 Oct 2012 , 5:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellawillow

Hahaha - Kendall it is true, you do automatically want to sing that line. I have nothing to add of any importance, just could tell you were Aussie. Your reply made me both smile and nod my head....same weird sense of humour icon_lol.gif (Oh and another LEO I see.....good stuff).....

Quote:
Originally Posted by carmijok

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danielle_loves_cake

And Carmijok, I'm so sorry to hear about your kitty. I read it in a recent post. Was it the one in your picture with the melon on his head? That picture is so cute!

'

Thanks. No... that's an internet picture. My cat was black with gold eyes. She would have never allowed a lime on her head! icon_lol.gif



I am surprised anyone got a lime on any cats head....being 'supreme creatures' that they are it must have been a dog behind it icon_wink.gif





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