dantherex Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 12:59am
post #1 of

I am a pastry chef for a very high class venue in Texas and I do all the dessert items for weddings and events here.

I am a newbie ( not even, more like, baby) at cake decorating except for torting and icing a cake.
My bosses recently wanted me to start making wedding cakes that the venue could be a one stop shop for everything needed. I did warn them that I was fairly new to decorating cakes but that I would learn and that we would get this ball rolling.

Needless to say it has been a rough road. Mostly because I take care of the desserts for the events, there is no time to practice my cake decorating skills and I have 0 pastry help, all I can get are people from the culinary side of the kitchen to help me do the redundant stuff like dipping things and melting chocolate (they can't even do THAT right!) So my cakes so far have not been up to par (acceptable, I would say, but not good.)

My question is that I get into pickles because a bride asked for a damask design on her cake. But the templates for stenciling costs 60 dollars. And that was ALOT for just 1 cake. So instead I did my own stencils and just did the best that I could for the sake of saving money. ERRGG! Big mistake. How do you deal with equipment and things that you need that you will rarley use. Should I have told her "no." when she requested a damask design?

53 replies
tiggy2 Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 1:13am
post #2 of

Discuss it with your boss and see they want you to handle those situations.

BlakesCakes Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 2:19am
post #3 of

I honestly don't think that this type of thing should be an issue at all.

If the venue wants to supply wedding cakes, then there needs to be parameters set for the production of those cakes.

If a damask cake is within the realm of what they want you to be able to supply, then the VENUE buys the proper equipment for you to use. The stencil is then their property.

You should have a budget for supplies necessary for wedding cakes that goes above and beyond pans and cake tips. And, if you need classes to gain or enhance skills, they should be paying for them directly OR reimbursing you for them OR upping your pay once the classes are completed OR not asking you to do anything that you don't already know how to do.

If the venue doesn't want to take on the expense of the proper materials for you, then you need to tell them what simple cakes you can do with what you have available to you--and not go beyond those styles of cakes until they give you a budget to increase your arsenal of tools.

You shouldn't be doing things that you don't know how to do, don't have time to figure out how to do, or haven't been given the opportunity to learn how to do.
Obviously, going beyond your comfort zone leads to stress on your part, possibly upset on the bride's part, and the potential for the venue to have to refund money/lose reputation/etc.

Learning on the job is fine, but it can't be at the expense of a customer. In the end, if the rigors of your current position don't really allow you to be the wedding cake DECORATOR, then the venue should hire a specialist who will either do that job or train you how to ultimately do it.

JMHO
Rae

cheatize Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 2:27am
post #4 of

If it won't get used again, the customer bears the cost of the item. However, remember that if the customer pays for it, the customer should also get the option of keeping the item.

jason_kraft Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 2:37am
post #5 of

The cost of specialized items like stencils should be charged back to the customer based on the expected utilization of said item over its lifetime.

Even if the customer is charged back 100%+ of the cost of the item, that does not mean they should be given the item...the cost of the item is balanced by lower labor costs due to the increased productivity the item allows.

This is definitely something you'll want to discuss with your management to make sure you are all on the same page. If you are paying for your supplies out of pocket and you are being treated as employee, the cost of your supplies should be reimbursed by the company, otherwise they run the risk of you being reclassified as a contractor.

BlakesCakes Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 2:49am
post #6 of

I can't really see a reputable venue asking a bride to purchase their own damask stencil. That would go over like a lead balloon.......

They could roll the cost of it into the price of the cake or reception package and the bride would never know. Over time, the venue would slowly gather the necessary items to make a variety of cakes.
I'd guess that on some level that happens all of the time, but it sounds so.............shady when said out loud.

I still feel that to do this on a professional level, the venue should foot the bill for the materials/tools.

Rae

jason_kraft Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 2:57am
post #7 of
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakesCakes

I can't really see a reputable venue asking a bride to purchase their own damask stencil. That would go over like a lead balloon.......

They could roll the cost of it into the price of the cake or reception package and the bride would never know.



That's exactly how it should be done. The bride is not charged a separate fee for specialty equipment any more than they are charged separate line items for other allocated overhead, ingredients, and labor.

If a bride requests a design that requires a $60 stencil, and there's little chance the stencil will be used again, then ~$65-75 would be added to the cost of that design. If the designer decides to try it without the stencil, then the cost for additional labor + rent would be added instead.

If the bride doesn't like the cost of that design, they can choose a simpler design that costs less and does not require specialty equipment. This is not shady at all...your prices should reflect all costs involved in making the product, unless you are running a charity instead of a business.

BlakesCakes Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 3:50am
post #8 of

God, I just know I'll regret this later............

Yes, I know, I know, I know. That's what I said IS done.

It's practical, but in some ways unfair to the first person who requests that "specialty" item--particularly if they don't KNOW that they're the first.

It's a crap shoot as to whether someone else will come along and need it, but if they do, then THEORETICALLY, the subsequent customer(s) get the benefit of the extra that the first person paid for-- AND, the venue does get the ultimate benefit of now having the continued option to use the item.

Most brides wouldn't recognize a $60 upcharge on cake of any significant size, especially if it's part of a package plan.

If the bride has the option to "choose a simpler design that costs less and does not require specialty equipment", then the venue also has the option to (be honest) and tell her that they don't have the equipment to do that design and that it either can't/won't be done OR that there will be an upcharge not only for the time & labor to do the design, but also for the purchase of the specialty item. And if they do upcharge at all for it, it had should be done right.

I still maintain that a good business provides it's staff with the proper tools to do a proper job. It's not up to a customer, who has no idea of what tools are needed (or available to the decorator) to guess that the slight increase in the cost of the cake is due to the fact that the venue doesn't have the stencil.

Ah, yes, Jason, I do run a charity--and my way of handling this is to simply make the choice to offer the style OR to NOT offer it (because I don't want the expense or know that I will likely never use it again).

I don't go around bumping up my inventory of "cake toys" by tacking on a bit here for this and a bit here for that cutter, stencil, pan, etc.--and I don't feel that "businesses" should be doing that, either.

Spending money to make money is an old concept, but it works. In this scenario, had the decorator had the right tool, she would have saved herself time, labor, & heartache AND everyone might have been happy with the cake. She also would have been confident in offering the same design again.

So, quote away! Knock yourself out!

I'm out.
Rae

jason_kraft Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 4:04am
post #9 of
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakesCakes

It's a crap shoot as to whether someone else will come along and need it, but if they do, then THEORETICALLY, the subsequent customer(s) get the benefit of the extra that the first person paid for-- AND, the venue does get the ultimate benefit of now having the continued option to use the item.



Absolutely correct...and this situation should happen more often than the opposite situation, since you would err on the side of conservatism when estimating if a specialty item will be used in the future.

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If the bride has the option to "choose a simpler design that costs less and does not require specialty equipment", then the venue also has the option to (be honest) and tell her that they don't have the equipment to do that design and that it either can't/won't be done



It seems silly to tell someone you can't give them what they want if the only barrier is ordering a specialty item. If you feel you can't do the job right even with the specialty item (or there are space constraints in terms of storing the item), that's another story and I agree that you should decline.

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that there will be an upcharge not only for the time & labor to do the design, but also for the purchase of the specialty item.



Typically specialty items like stencils will reduce the time & labor cost vs. if the stencil was not used, this is the tradeoff I was referring to.

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And if they do upcharge at all for it, it had should be done right.



One would think it should be done right even if there was no upcharge. icon_wink.gif

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It's not up to a customer, who has no idea of what tools are needed (or available to the decorator) to guess that the slight increase in the cost of the cake is due to the fact that the venue doesn't have the stencil.



The reason for the price difference is not really relevant to the customer, they don't care if it costs more due to more labor or more equipment, they just see that more complicated designs cost more, which is as it should be. The decorator controls the process, not the customer, and that's why I recommend not breaking out labor and equipment costs in quotes.

Apti Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 4:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dantherex

I am a pastry chef for a very high class venue in Texas and I do all the dessert items for weddings and events here.

I am a newbie ( not even, more like, baby) at cake decorating except for torting and icing a cake.
My bosses recently wanted me to start making wedding cakes that the venue could be a one stop shop for everything needed. I did warn them that I was fairly new to decorating cakes but that I would learn and that we would get this ball rolling.

Needless to say it has been a rough road. Mostly because I take care of the desserts for the events, there is no time to practice my cake decorating skills and I have 0 pastry help, all I can get are people from the culinary side of the kitchen to help me do the redundant stuff like dipping things and melting chocolate (they can't even do THAT right!) So my cakes so far have not been up to par (acceptable, I would say, but not good.)

My question is that I get into pickles because a bride asked for a damask design on her cake. But the templates for stenciling costs 60 dollars. And that was ALOT for just 1 cake. So instead I did my own stencils and just did the best that I could for the sake of saving money. ERRGG! Big mistake. How do you deal with equipment and things that you need that you will rarley use. Should I have told her "no." when she requested a damask design?




Goodness.....Sounds like you have excellent basic skills for desserts, but cake decorating is not a quickly learned skill. Like everything you have learned, it takes PRACTICE and TRAINING. A "high class" venue that wants to be a "one stop shop", has a VERY high bar for client expectations. Wedding cake tools and supplies can be very different from other culinary/dessert supplies/tools.

I would suggest that you meet with the management and tell them that the learning curve is more pronounced than you anticipated and cannot be done adequately while covering all of your other duties. They need to pay for you to attend an intensive training course from a wedding cake professional (many, many options out there), and provide the time off from work (at their expense), to attend the classes and perfect your skills. They also need to commit to a certain amount of tools and supplies specific to wedding cakes. The $60 stencil you are asking about is only the tip of the iceberg.

With your current skill level, you will probably be able to master many of the skills needed for wedding cakes in a fairly short time. BUT--you will also be spending much more time in addition to your current position.

If you or they don't wish to do this, I would suggest that they are not ready to be a "one stop shop". If they want to keep the profit "in house" and not use a wedding cake sub-contractor, then they need to spend the money for training and equipment and your extra time.

LKing12 Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 4:39am

Inventory as part of the overhead of a business can be daunting. If a customer wants a cake that requires special processes, designs, or investment in equipment, these elements will be included in the price of the cake. You cannot afford to absorb the cost and the price of the cake should reflect the ingredients, time to design and equipment needed to produce the end result.
If you are producing the cake as an employee, your employer should be making the investment in all the inventory that you need. If you are producing the cake as an outside source, then you are a contractor and really your inventory should be separated from your employers.

dantherex Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 6:55am

Alright, thank you all for your advice. Basically you were confirming my first thoughts. Now my employer reimburses me 100% of everything I spend. The problem I foresaw was that things like a damask stencil were going to raise questions (for example : Why is this so expensive? Is this thing necessary? Is there another way?) Plus I had already quoted the bride a price without the stencil.

I did have a nice little chat after my boss brought up the fact that the bride did not mention anything about the cake (which is a bad thing, she complimented everything else.) and I don't blame her, it was mediocre, but I'm just glad I had something out there.

I think my temporary fix is that I only do cakes I can see myself doing with essential tools, at least until our cakes grow better reputation. I also demanded to my boss that if she insists on doing cakes, that I need help in the pastry department and that the help from the culinary department is no help, they are retarded at taking things off the stove at a certain temperature for some reason.

Thank you guys so much, I included a pic of the cake (I think it belongs in the cake disasters section XD )
LL

Bluehue Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 11:52am

Good grief - cannot believe that YOU have to buy the tools of the trade that you need to produce a cake that your bosses are promoting as part of their package..... icon_confused.gif

The place you work for would write everything off against their tax.

You say you do the desserts - well any stencils bought can also be used on ome of those - so it would be worth your while to keep them safe and use occassionally .
Even laid over a cake and then icing sugar sprinkled over the stencil and stenciled cookies - just to name two.

Think i would be sitting down with my boss - discussing this whole Wedding Cake Projuect in detail and asking for XXX.XX ammount of dollars to go buy some very worthwhile handy tools that you can use again and again..for both your desserts and cakes.

That is how you build up a workable cake decorating supply.

Ridiculous that you have to buy anything - icon_rolleyes.gif
I shake my head at that

Bluehue.

jason_kraft Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 1:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluehue

Good grief - cannot believe that YOU have to buy the tools of the trade that you need to produce a cake that your bosses are promoting as part of their package..... icon_confused.gif



OP is reimbursed for the tools they buy, this is a relatively common practice when working as an employee.

Bluehue Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 3:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_kraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluehue

Good grief - cannot believe that YOU have to buy the tools of the trade that you need to produce a cake that your bosses are promoting as part of their package..... icon_confused.gif


OP is reimbursed for the tools they buy, this is a relatively common practice when working as an employee.




Maybe where you come from Jason - but no way in hell would that be acceptable over here.....Honestly - its no way to run a business... totally not acceptable here in Australia.

If the tools of the trade aren't there when you need them then the boss/bosses assitant would give you the petty cash to go buy....but that would be a rare thing.
Although i do find it odd that the OP is in this situation - surely to goodness the bosses or whoever is running the show would have bought in supplies in readiness for such orders.
Stencils aren't that uncommon - Just like having a mirred of colours - cutters and piping tips.... i know we come from different worlds - but gee, no supplies when one had to present wedding cakes - bit rough really.

Bluehue

jason_kraft Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 3:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluehue

Maybe where you come from Jason - but no way in hell would that be acceptable over here.....Honestly - its no way to run a business... totally not acceptable here in Australia.



I don't think it's specific to the US. I work for a large multinational company (nothing to do with cakes), and I routinely purchase tools and services that I need for my work on my credit card (or cash if the vendor does not accept credit cards), then I file an expense report to get reimbursed. My colleagues in Australia do the same thing.

Large purchases of capital equipment (like computers) are of course handled through the company's procurement process, but a $60 tool would typically just be bought OOP and expensed.

Bluehue Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 4:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_kraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluehue

Maybe where you come from Jason - but no way in hell would that be acceptable over here.....Honestly - its no way to run a business... totally not acceptable here in Australia.


I don't think it's specific to the US. I work for a large multinational company (nothing to do with cakes), and I routinely purchase tools and services that I need for my work on my credit card (or cash if the vendor does not accept credit cards), then I file an expense report to get reimbursed.

My colleagues in Australia do the same thing.
What???
Jason - if anyone in this country works for a Multinational Company then trust me everything is supplied. UNLESS YOU ARE CONTRACTED. Then and only then would you need to buy your own tools of the trade.
Multinational firms in this country do not have people willy nilly running around purchasing things and then running back with a receipt for petty cash.......... please, this is the country that has been phasing out cheques for the last 3 years... and EFT's (electronic Funds Transfers) are used more than any other form of payment.

Anyhoooooo - getting back to the OP's situation - she should have a supply cupbaord with tools at her finger tips if she is to present wedding cakes as part of her job discription...and they should be supplied by her employer.

Bluehue
Large purchases of capital equipment (like computers) are of course handled through the company's procurement process instead of being bought OOP and expensed.


jason_kraft Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 4:16pm

I speak from personal experience. Some things are supplied by my employer, but if I need a book, an inexpensive piece of hardware or software, training classes, etc. I can and do use a credit card to purchase it. Then I fill out an online expense report, and the cost of the item is paid to my credit card account, or I get an EFT into my payroll account if I paid cash. This is SOP for many companies around the world.

Bluehue Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 4:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_kraft

I speak from personal experience. Some things are supplied by my employer, but if I need a book, an inexpensive piece of hardware or software, training classes, etc. I can and do use a credit card to purchase it. Then I fill out an online expense report, and the cost of the item is paid to my credit card account, or I get an EFT into my payroll account if I paid cash. Hold on - we had this very discussdion the other day where i spoke of EFT and i thought you said it wasn't readily available over there in the States.....and you ent on to describ another form of transferring funds....icon_confused.gif
Again - you would have to be a contractor not an employee persae
. This is SOP for many companies around the world.

Yes, we here in Australia are well aware of how multinational companies all around the world operate.... why, we even have some from the Sates here - lollllllllllllllllllllllll


icon_confused.gif

jason_kraft Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 4:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluehue

Hold on - we had this very discussdion the other day where i spoke of EFT and i thought you said it wasn't readily available over there in the States.



I'm not sure what you're talking about, I know what thread you are referring to but I repeatedly brought up ACH transfers as being used for electronic funds transfer in the US. It's person-to-person EFTs that typically go through something like PayPal, things like payroll and expense reimbursement are virtually all electronic in the US (we call it "direct deposit").

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Again - you would have to be a contractor not an employee persae



I am a full-time employee, not a contractor.

BlakesCakes Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 9:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by dantherex


Thank you guys so much, I included a pic of the cake (I think it belongs in the cake disasters section XD )




No, it DOESN'T belong in the wrecks section. You made a valiant effort and that's to be applauded. For someone who admits to little training in cake decorating, I think you did an admirable job, but you've already acknowledged that it's probably not what the bride envisioned.

I don't think that, right now, you should be the one pricing these cakes, either.

Since this is a new venture for the venue, I'd suggest that, for the time being, there be some frank communication between a planner/order taker and you. At that time, you could bring up any special equipment necessary for a design and then get the yea or nay for it, plan the design accordingly, and then the other person would give the quote and options to the bride.

This might give the management a better idea of what they need to supply to you for you to do your job properly. It also may give them a better idea of what levels of cake styles they want to offer and what they prefer to omit from their options. It may be in the management's interest to forgo overly large or complicated cakes, rather than to purchase specialty supplies or utilize too much of your time for those.

Another possibility would be that a portfolio of designs that you're comfortable producing be provided to brides. If what they want falls way outside of that, then they would get a credit and be encouraged to find an outside decorator.

This is a very hard thing to learn as on the job training. I'd think that it's very stressful on you.

Hope it all works out for the best.
Rae

howsweet Posted 20 Aug 2012 , 11:04pm

I would never pass on the cost of of a typical bakery tool to a customer, itemized or not. Certainly not something as generic as a damask template. If a customer wants petal shaped pans does she have to pay for those, too? Either you do the order, or you don't, but don't ask the customer to buy you a new *fill in the blank*. Tools are part of the cost of doing business.

If the customer is shopping around, she may find someone whose quote is about
$60 less lol

jason_kraft Posted 21 Aug 2012 , 1:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by howsweet

If a customer wants petal shaped pans does she have to pay for those, too?



So if you don't see yourself ever using those petal-shaped pans again for another order, who should pay for them?

Jess155 Posted 21 Aug 2012 , 4:17am
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Originally Posted by jason_kraft

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Originally Posted by howsweet

If a customer wants petal shaped pans does she have to pay for those, too?


So if you don't see yourself ever using those petal-shaped pans again for another order, who should pay for them?




If you are a home hobby baker, yes maybe the customer could pay for them, but I doubt any customer would go for that. If you're an established, reputable business, then I would be laughing all the way to another baker at the fact that you wanted me, the customer, to pay for a pan or a stencil. No way! thumbsdown.gif

jason_kraft Posted 21 Aug 2012 , 4:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess155

If you're an established, reputable business, then I would be laughing all the way to another baker at the fact that you wanted me, the customer, to pay for a pan or a stencil. No way! thumbsdown.gif



So which situation do you think would be the most appropriate for the customer getting a specialty design?

A. The customer paying extra for the specialty pan
B. The customer paying extra for the additional labor involved in executing the design without the specialty pan
C. The customer paying the same as a simpler design, with the decorator paying for the difference out of her own pocket

Option C is the equivalent of lowering your price at the customer's request. Also, if you read earlier in this thread, the cost should not be broken out for the customer on a line item basis, so the customer would not know that $X went towards a pan any more than they would know how much went to pay for insurance, how much went to the profit margin, etc.

Note that if you are correctly capturing your costs, all your pans (and your other supplies) are being paid for in part by every single one of your customers. The only difference here is the rate of depreciation.

Jess155 Posted 21 Aug 2012 , 2:43pm

D. You buy the pan as a cost of doing business. You don't know that you'll never use it again. You could get 3 orders for it next week, you don't have a crystal ball.

OR

E. You try to talk the customer into a different design if you absolutely don't want to buy the pan.

But really, as a reputable baker, shouldn't you have petal, diamond, sqaure, round, oval, and paisley pans?? Walmart only has round. Why would you want to be that limited??

jason_kraft Posted 21 Aug 2012 , 3:14pm
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Originally Posted by Jess155

D. You buy the pan as a cost of doing business.



That's the same as option C, and when you increase your costs without increasing your price you are reducing your profit margin just like if you were to lower your prices.

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E. You try to talk the customer into a different design if you absolutely don't want to buy the pan.



That's definitely an option, ideally presented as a lower-priced alternative to the original design. I do find it puzzling that so many people are willing to force the customer to compromise on their design without even presenting them with the price just to avoid buying a pan (unless there is an issue with storage space).

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But really, as a reputable baker, shouldn't you have petal, diamond, sqaure, round, oval, and paisley pans?? Walmart only has round. Why would you want to be that limited??



This comment is even more puzzling. There are many pan shapes out there, and it may not be realistic to buy them all at once, so if you have the opportunity to build your inventory of specialty pans on an ad-hoc basis with customer chargebacks I don't see what you would pass that up.

When we started out I went out and bought a ton of different pans, and in hindsight that was a mistake since they take up a lot of space and some were never used. It also increased the allocated overhead cost for all our orders, but luckily our volume was relatively high so it wasn't that noticeable (~$1/order).

Jess155 Posted 21 Aug 2012 , 3:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_kraft

so if you have the opportunity to build your inventory of specialty pans on an ad-hoc basis with customer chargebacks I don't see what you would pass that up.




There's the rub. I could never imagine charging a customer full price or even a majority of the cost for a reusable item. A structure specifically for that cake that the customer disposes of after use, like SPS, yes, but not something reusable to you the baker. I could never imagine walking into a specialty baker wanting a petal shaped cake and them saying "Ooooh, yeah I don't have those pans, so that's anther $60 onto your bill. Oh, and I get to keep them because hey, you don't want them. Yes, I may use them again, but who knows, right??" Yeah,...no. Oh, and I know you're not planning on actually telling the customer all this, you just do it in secret and hope that they won't catch on. Classy.

But then, I'm in a position where I can say "you get round or square because that's what I have". Because I do free cakes just for family and special friends and charity. And you don't have to worry about it either. So I'm not sure why me and you are the ones debating this. Let's let people discuss it who actually have a vested interest.

jason_kraft Posted 21 Aug 2012 , 3:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jess155

I could never imagine walking into a specialty baker wanting a petal shaped cake and them saying "Ooooh, yeah I don't have those pans, so that's anther $60 onto your bill. Oh, and I get to keep them because hey, you don't want them. Yes, I may use them again, but who knows, right??" Yeah,...no. Oh, and I know you're not planning on actually telling the customer all this, you just do it in secret and hope that they won't catch on. Classy.



I keep seeing this argument that it's somehow sneaky or dishonest to not break out all your costs on a line item basis when you present a price to the customer, but that's just not the case. The only breakouts that are relevant are items the customer can choose to remove or change.

For example, if the customer wanted a petal design that required X hours (or X - Y hours with the addition of a specialty pan), you would quote a price of, say, $360, with an additional option of $300 for a more simple round design. Alternatively, you could break out the quote as $300 for the cake plus $60 for the premium design. You wouldn't say that the price is $300 plus $60 for the pan, since the customer doesn't care about the pan, they care about the finished product (the premium design). The customer also doesn't care about insurance costs, rent, or your profit margin, but they are going to pay for them anyway.

Of course if you are not charging for cakes none of this applies, if the cake is free you will generally have much more leeway.

Jess155 Posted 21 Aug 2012 , 4:16pm

It's dishonest to charge a customer the full price or close to it for an item you can use again. Unless you tell them exactly what you're doing and why, it's dishonest. You're trying to get products for free that you should have on hand.

Customers expect the costs of insuance, utilities, etc, in their cakes. They do not expect to pay for a set of pans for you to keep and reuse.

Many bakers already charge a premium price for petal shapes because of the added labor. So now you want to charge them a super duper premium price and pay for your lack of supplies. Aaaand hope they won't notice.

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