Sarsi Posted 23 Jun 2012 , 12:38am
post #1 of

So, I'm just wondering if my filling will spoil. It is a filling for german chocolae cake. It is made with evaporated milk, egg yolks, coconut and sugar...is it okay to be sitting out a couple days??? Thanks!!

18 replies
ibeeflower Posted 23 Jun 2012 , 12:46am
post #2 of

a friend made one for my boyfriend's birthday since those are her specialty. It was in room temp the day she made it, in room temp the day given to him, and in room temp the following day. There was never any spoilage. I don't know about the egg yolks though since I don't know how she made it.

BlakesCakes Posted 23 Jun 2012 , 3:18am
post #3 of

I wouldn't trust it. Seeing the ingredients, even without proportions, I feel strongly that it needs refrigeration.

Lemon curd is made with egg yolks, is highly acidic, and requires refrigeration.

Rae

kelleym Posted 23 Jun 2012 , 3:42am
post #4 of

I had a recipe for this type of filling (coconut, sugar, egg yolks, evap. milk) tested for pH and water activity (this determines if it requires refrigeration), and it came back as YES it requires refrigeration.

Incidentally, Rae, I also had a recipe for lemon curd tested, and it tested within the range of NPH (not requiring refrigeration) due to its very high acidity. I'm not saying every lemon curd is safe, but I was very surprised and happy to get that result.

BlakesCakes Posted 23 Jun 2012 , 4:06am
post #5 of

Thanks, Kelly. Good to know.
Rae

Sarsi Posted 24 Jun 2012 , 4:41am
post #6 of

Thank you all for your input. I put it in the fridge just to be safe. I hope my fondant doesn't sweat too much!!!

Angfastic Posted 24 Jun 2012 , 5:02am
post #7 of

I've been making coconut pecan frosting for german chocolate cake for over 20 years and I've never refrigerated it. Granted my family can polish off a cake rather quickly, they have set out at room temperature for 2-3 days without any issue.

scp1127 Posted 24 Jun 2012 , 11:21am
post #8 of

It's one thing to do what you want personally, but if selling or donating, you should follow the guidelines of the official sites and your HD. The HD would deem that recipe to be a custard and it would require refrigeration. Even if you have been told a recipe tests ok for no refrigeration, you must still follow the guidelines of your local HD. Just like the butter issue... refrigerate, don't refrigerate... is an issue of rancidity, not safety, the local HD has the final say.

kelleym Posted 24 Jun 2012 , 2:14pm
post #9 of
Quote:
Originally Posted by scp1127

It's one thing to do what you want personally, but if selling or donating, you should follow the guidelines of the official sites and your HD. The HD would deem that recipe to be a custard and it would require refrigeration. Even if you have been told a recipe tests ok for no refrigeration, you must still follow the guidelines of your local HD. Just like the butter issue... refrigerate, don't refrigerate... is an issue of rancidity, not safety, the local HD has the final say.



The guidelines provided by Texas law are scientific. It is pH and aW that determines whether or not a food requires time and temperature control. Local HD personnel do not have the authority to contradict what is written in the law.

Anecdotal evidence can be compelling... "well I've done this for 20 years and never had a problem..." and similar stories. But I am most concerned with the science. I've spent a lot of time and energy studying and understanding the criteria for non-potentially hazardous food, and also quite a bit of my own money having recipes tested. I had 8 recipes tested, and the only two that came back in the potentially hazardous range (requiring time and temperature control) were the aforementioned coconut filling for German Chocolate cakes, and also IMBC. So refrigerate those IMBC cakes. thumbs_up.gif

cakemagic Posted 24 Jun 2012 , 2:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelleym

Quote:
Originally Posted by scp1127

It's one thing to do what you want personally, but if selling or donating, you should follow the guidelines of the official sites and your HD. The HD would deem that recipe to be a custard and it would require refrigeration. Even if you have been told a recipe tests ok for no refrigeration, you must still follow the guidelines of your local HD. Just like the butter issue... refrigerate, don't refrigerate... is an issue of rancidity, not safety, the local HD has the final say.


The guidelines provided by Texas law are scientific. It is pH and aW that determines whether or not a food requires time and temperature control. Local HD personnel do not have the authority to contradict what is written in the law.

Anecdotal evidence can be compelling... "well I've done this for 20 years and never had a problem..." and similar stories. But I am most concerned with the science. I've spent a lot of time and energy studying and understanding the criteria for non-potentially hazardous food, and also quite a bit of my own money having recipes tested. I had 8 recipes tested, and the only two that came back in the potentially hazardous range (requiring time and temperature control) were the aforementioned coconut filling for German Chocolate cakes, and also IMBC. So refrigerate those IMBC cakes. thumbs_up.gif



This is good to know. Thanks for info. What about SMBC? have you tested that for refrigeration?

karateka Posted 24 Jun 2012 , 11:37pm

Kelley-
Out of curiosity...where do you have your recipes tested, and how much does it cost you? I wouldn't even know where to begin to inquire.

Not sure that my HD or Dept of Agriculture would be remotely interested in anything I turned up in an independent lab, but if they would be, it sure would be an interesting experiment!

Angfastic Posted 25 Jun 2012 , 3:55am

By no means was I advocating not following rules, etc. I was just relaying my personal experience.

Thanks Kelly for the info regarding coconut pecan frosting and IMBC. I would have never imaged coconut pecan frosting being not allowed. I'll have to try the SMBC recipe you have posted on your site so if I do need to sell a cake with MBC I'm following the law. I don't want to mess things up for people who do this full-time. Thanks for all you have done for the home bakers in TX!

kelleym Posted 25 Jun 2012 , 3:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by karateka

Kelley-
Out of curiosity...where do you have your recipes tested, and how much does it cost you? I wouldn't even know where to begin to inquire.

Not sure that my HD or Dept of Agriculture would be remotely interested in anything I turned up in an independent lab, but if they would be, it sure would be an interesting experiment!




We found a place in Texas called Food Safety Net Services, and they will test a recipe for pH and aW for less than $35.00. I was able to drive my samples to the lab, but you can overnight them on ice, too. There may be a setup fee for non-Texas residents. I caution you that you need to study your own state's definitions for potentially hazardous foods, so that you will be able to make meaningful use of the test results. http://texascottagefoodlaw.com/Resources/FoodTesting.aspx

Quote:
Originally Posted by CakeMagic

This is good to know. Thanks for info. What about SMBC? have you tested that for refrigeration?



The recipe we tested for SMBC tested non-potentially hazardous by Texas law. I did not make the recipe personally, but it was made for me by a good friend who has owned her own cake shop and competed on Food Network Challenge. http://texascottagefoodlaw.com/Resources/Recipes.aspx

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angfastic

By no means was I advocating not following rules, etc. I was just relaying my personal experience.

Thanks Kelly for the info regarding coconut pecan frosting and IMBC. I would have never imaged coconut pecan frosting being not allowed. I'll have to try the SMBC recipe you have posted on your site so if I do need to sell a cake with MBC I'm following the law. I don't want to mess things up for people who do this full-time. Thanks for all you have done for the home bakers in TX!



Oh, I didn't mean to imply that! I just wanted to say that I know it's tempting to rely on your own experiences. Everyone does it. It was one of our supporters who found the food testing lab, and I was thrilled to finally be able to get some burning questions answered, in a scientific way.

BakingIrene Posted 25 Jun 2012 , 3:44pm

I'm confused. I read the Texas document and at the bottom of page 11 it says that "potentially hazardous food includes
(i) an animal food (a food of animal origin), including fresh shell eggs, that is raw or heat-treated;...."

I was taught that all products containing milk, cream, and eggs were required to be kept at/above 40'C (160F) or below 4'C (39F) in food establishments. Doesn't the Texas CFL rule still say the same thing?

kelleym Posted 25 Jun 2012 , 4:12pm

Yes, foods of animal origins like milk, cream, eggs, seafood, and chicken, are potentially hazardous. You cannot let a carton of milk sit out on the counter all day. We are speaking not of sole ingredients, but a finished product like buttercream, which may contain butter and milk, but also copious amounts of sugar, which adds acidity and acts as a preservative. We look to the final product, not each ingredient contained therein. It is the pH and aW of the final product which determines whether or not it is potentially hazardous.

But if you have been taught otherwise, then you should certainly continue to do things in that manner. Since you are not a Texas resident, our laws are probably irrelevant to how you operate.

BakingIrene Posted 25 Jun 2012 , 4:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelleym

We look to the final product, not each ingredient contained therein. It is the pH and aW of the final product which determines whether or not it is potentially hazardous.

But if you have been taught otherwise, then you should certainly continue to do things in that manner. Since you are not a Texas resident, our laws are probably irrelevant to how you operate.




You might be interested to know that my local pizza joint wouldn't let me buy a cool slice to reheat at home. They insisted that they had to reheat it onsite before they could sell it. They are a chain and I have to say that their food handling impressed me the first time I walked into one of their shops.

ccc407 Posted 25 Jun 2012 , 5:16pm

Wow! Great topic and sooo informative. I've always refrigerated after putting together only because I also glop the frosting all over the sides and refrigeration helps to hold it on. I think my cake is much more frosting than cake..lol. I don't normally refrig. after cutting, but will do so in the future. Thanks all for the info.

sammie192 Posted 26 Jun 2012 , 5:39am

I make my son a B-bay cake a few years back with the cooked coconut filling. They were to put in the refrigerator after they cut it. NOT they left it out for a couple of days. It grew hair-and it molded.He was just a little up set to say.

Angfastic Posted 26 Jun 2012 , 7:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccc407

Wow! Great topic and sooo informative. I've always refrigerated after putting together only because I also glop the frosting all over the sides and refrigeration helps to hold it on. I think my cake is much more frosting than cake..lol. I don't normally refrig. after cutting, but will do so in the future. Thanks all for the info.






I also frost the entire cake with it. To me it is not a german chocolate cake with just a coconut pecan filling icon_smile.gif.

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