Makonakins Posted 11 Jun 2012 , 10:53pm
post #1 of

Just a little bit of a vent really. I won't disclose names, but I am sick of being seen as the "bad guy if I mention IP/copyright theft in comments/posts on baking blogs or facebook.

The way I see it, if you post a picture or are promoting your/someone else's work in either of these social type places, then you are inviting comments and discussion. But when they don't get the normal fawning replies of "omg", "wow" etc and instead get a more in-depth remark, in this case about copyright theft, you get nailed to the wall - and are seen as being jealous, spiteful, etc etc.

I actually said the work itself was amazing, and the artist/baker is very talented, but hoped they had considered the downfalls of ip/copyright theft. The baker themselves is well known in the UK (awards, magazines etc clearly indicating that she's a talented lady) but as a business woman why hasn't she at least considered that this type of illegal activity could actually ruin her?

Is it the nature of the business? Is it because it's edible (art) and won't be around for a long time... the evidence being gobbled up? icon_biggrin.gif Is it because they see all the TV/popular chefs doing it? Who most likely have got permission, but never actually disclose that important bit of information to the masses. -.-

Or is it simply they are just too preoccupied with the benefits and income that come from recreating well known brand characters in cake, and just don't care? Or that they don't think they'll get caught or are oblivious to it... posting countless photos around the internet for anyone to see.

Why is it in their minds they see that internet piracy is wrong yet are so casual when it comes to copyright infringement? /sigh

I guess these are just rhetorical questions as we'll never know why she (or other infringers) do what they do... XD

(This baker in question has also used characters from well known brands such as, Disney, Sanrio, DC and Marvel comics to name a few,, which are all clearly visible on her sites, so it's not her first time)

I admit it may be possible that she does have permission, but if that's the case, wouldn't it be better to inform potential customers/fans of this, instead of going on the defensive?

So what do you all do? Do you just let it slide and no longer comment on photos/work of this nature for fear of the backlash. Or do you try and make people aware (bakery business owners and customers) of the issue?

Side note: I know when I start my business it's going to be tough to not only say no to those popular character cakes but to also explain why I can't do it. But at the end of the day I wouldn't want to put my business at risk, and would much rather create my own art and build my own individual brand.

I suppose this whole post really just boils down to me wishing people were more informed about this sort of stuff... and that they would all stop shooting the messenger!

Thanks for listening all. icon_smile.gif


edit: the other thing about the photos that sparked this whole thing off which I forgot to mention, is that she's even using the actual brand logos/images on her photos, and then also has the nerve to put the copyright symbol © and her business name at the bottom. icon_surprised.gif

49 replies
Pearl645 Posted 11 Jun 2012 , 11:02pm
post #2 of

I'm glad you wrote this thread. I live and operate my cake business in a small island and I am not sure I understand all the posts and comments about using Disney and other characters as cakes legally. Can you explain what is allowed and what are the limitations? I rent Wilton character cake pans all the time. Are my cakes now at risk for copyright or some sort of infringement? Also, if a client brings a photo of another baker's cake and I replicate it, what is the proper procedure for this? Do I write the baker and ask for permission to use their cake image? I have seen many artists on flick posting links to the original cake designer's website to give credit to their work. Hope you can give advice.

Makonakins Posted 11 Jun 2012 , 11:42pm
post #3 of

To be completely honest I do not know all the ins and outs of copyright theft (I'm not a lawyer), but I'll try to answer some of your questions, and I'm sure other people on the board will also try to help answer too.

The character cake tins, and toppers and any of that kind of merchandise afaik (someone correct me if I'm wrong) are for personal use only. As a business you are not allowed to use these tins to bake cakes and profit from them. So for example, a mom could buy/rent the character tins to make a birthday cake for her children... but she could not sell that character cake and make money. I'm not sure of the legalities or pitfalls if the character cake was made as a gift though.

The character cakes and such that you see in the big supermarkets are licensed/have permission to make and sell them, since part of the profit is kicked back to the license holder (or the supermarkets pay a fixed sum for the license afaik).

Your second question about replicating someone else's work is something else that I would personally stay far far away from (so I wouldn't be contacting the original creator). Yes the client may want such and such's design but I would much prefer to create something custom for them and would try to steer them in a different direction. Worst case scenario: perhaps something inspired by the design they want but not an exact match.

Being inspired by someone else's work is great and is inevitable in life and art, but I'd want to put my own artistic mark on the work. Seems silly but personally I'd break it down like this - 80-90% my input/design and 10-20% inspiration from other peoples work, whether it be cakes, fashion, or anything else "arty". icon_biggrin.gif And saying that I'd of course link in the original designer on social media sites if my work had been inspired by them.

Pearl645 Posted 11 Jun 2012 , 11:54pm
post #4 of

Well this is certainly news to me. How then are cake stores selling character cake pans? The cake stores in my country sell and rent hundreds of character cake pans from Wilton. This is of great concern to me. So then if someone wants a sponge bob cake...what do you do if you can't use a character cake pan? Do you tell them you can't do images or replicas of licensed characters and end it there?

jason_kraft Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 12:01am
post #5 of

You are not alone...I attribute the problem to general lack of awareness about the scope of copyright combined with the current low enforcement level by IP owners.

To answer the question above, if you copy someone else's copyrighted work without their permission you are committing copyright infringement, regardless of whether the copy was sold or not (by itself or as part of another product). There are a few exceptions, such as parody or educational use.

If a Wilton pan is labeled as "home use only", that means Wilton has negotiated a limited license with the IP owner, and if you sell the cake you are still infringing unless you get permission yourself.

When customers ask us to use the likeness of a copyrighted character on the cake, we ask the customer to provide written permission from the copyright owner. The order then typically becomes a different, non-infringing design or a generic cake with a licensed figurine on top (which is not infringing, since you are using the original figurine you bought and not a copy made with BC or fondant).

Pearl645 Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 12:06am
post #6 of

Oh my. Thanks for clearning up. I have done 2 wilton character cakes and never noticed "for home use only". I am now concerned about people bringing photos of cakes they got from online for their wedding cake. We don't even have Cottage Food Laws here. Anyone can start a cake business from home all with just a 2hr tv lecture at the Health office and a Health badge is issued right after. No inspection whatsoever.

Makonakins Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 12:12am
post #7 of
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl645

How then are cake stores selling character cake pans? The cake stores in my country sell and rent hundreds of character cake pans from Wilton.




The cake shops can sell/rent them, that's not an issue, and it's not up to the shop to police people who buy them. But those types of tins are produced for personal use only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl645

So then if someone wants a sponge bob cake...what do you do if you can't use a character cake pan? Do you tell them you can't do images or replicas of licensed characters and end it there?




Pretty much yeah I say no can do. I personally (even though this is just a hobby for me at the moment, but will be opening my business next year) will not create any cakes that are of licensed characters or items (like the fashion brand cakes). The only exception to this is if I have/get permission to do so - ie if a business has asked me to do their logo, or if I got permission to use a sports team's logo.

Another example of this is Bakerella and her cake pops - the licensed characters she recreates in cakepop form and posts on her blog are ok because she's got the permission - she contributes to Disney's site too iirc.

Hope that helps icon_smile.gif

erin2345 Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 1:52am
post #8 of

At the end of the day - who really cares? I literally could not care less is some famous baker is making illegal Mickey Mouse cakes. It is not good to hold on top that negative energy. Just do you own thing, and let them do theirs icon_smile.gif You are not the cake police.

BlakesCakes Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 2:11am
post #9 of

Well, if you wanted to take me on about my practices or policies, I'd want you to do it in a private communication and NOT in a public forum.

If forced to defend myself in a public forum, I'd get nasty, too.

Everyone should have the option to either address your concerns, or, quite honestly, to ignore your concerns. That's not an option in a public forum--people really are compelled to reply. And many people would feel that if you can't stop them from doing what they're doing, that you're just being a PIA and a troublemaker.

We have a few "police" here on CC.............generally, not very popular for starting off replies to questions like, "How much should I charge for this cake?" with "Well, are you licensed? If not, you shouldn't be charging anything......"

Being a whistleblower is a tough row to hoe. For every 2 people who feel grateful for the information, 98 more are going to be really upset with YOU--and you'll NEVER stop people from feeling that you're just a case of sour grapes, either because you can't do comparable work, or because you won't do comparable work. Hard to win unless it involves someone's personal injury or death.

Rae

LoveMeSomeCake615 Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 2:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakesCakes

Well, if you wanted to take me on about my practices or policies, I'd want you to do it in a private communication and NOT in a public forum.

If forced to defend myself in a public forum, I'd get nasty, too.




Yup.

People really don't respond well to finger-wagging, no matter how kindly it is meant.

scp1127 Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 6:53am

In response to Blakes, this is the business forum. If someone posts in the business forum, be prepared for a business related answer.

I cannot imagine where you get your percentages. My inbox has been full for two years with people who actually do care about the legalities of doing business and proper business procedure.

Maybe because this is cake and many go into "business" with no business experience, but the majority of those who are serious about their trade and expect to make a good income legally, do care about the details.

I owned a marketing company for 15 years that catered to the marketing needs of small businesses. I had clients in almost every profession. Not until I got to CC did I see a small faction of members who were insulted and irritated by discussions and posts that were strictly business in the business forum.

So I will have to respectfully disagree that the majority of people in business, cake or any business, want to be in the dark about their profession.

And I will have to respectfully disagree again that the nature of our post are due to bad attitudes or jealousy. The true reason for our responses is because we either looked up the answer or because we have experience, education, or knowledge in the subject.

Crazy-Gray Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 7:49am

If it wasn't for the advice of others on CC I would never have realised (ignorantly I appreciate) that there were copyright issues; ridiculously assuming that if its going to be eaten surely it doesn't count so I am hugely grateful!
As a result I enjoy being more creative in my designs and when permission does unexpectedly arrive its a great feeling; Mulberry just gave me permission for a one-off replica of a bag, never thought that would come through at all!

SugaredSaffron Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 10:59am

I know who you are talking about and to be honest I would have sent a private message if I had a problem about it. If the cakes in question weren't so popular, would you have been so annoyed? I mean, maybe she doesn't know or maybe she doesn't care? If you give your advice I think it should just be left at that, no everyone is bothered about copyright characters - its just a fact.

I don't do characters or modelling so it doesn't effect me but on a personal level it doesn't upset me when I see character cakes. Not that my feelings have any bearing on the legalities btw.

JaniceBest Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy-Gray

If it wasn't for the advice of others on CC I would never have realised (ignorantly I appreciate) that there were copyright issues; ridiculously assuming that if its going to be eaten surely it doesn't count so I am hugely grateful!
As a result I enjoy being more creative in my designs and when permission does unexpectedly arrive its a great feeling; Mulberry just gave me permission for a one-off replica of a bag, never thought that would come through at all!



thumbs_up.gif

Makonakins Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 12:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by erin2345

At the end of the day - who really cares?



I do, hence why I posted. This is the industry I will be joining soon, and I care about what goes on in it. I think if I were, for example, a retailer of licensed goods in a brick and mortar store, and the shop down the road from me were selling knock off/fake goods of the same ilk I'd also care about the situation, and I believe other people in the community would too.

And this is what I'm trying to get my head around; why do some people in this industry feel that this type of law breaking is ok, yet another comparable type of law breaking isn't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by erin2345

Just do you own thing, and let them do theirs icon_smile.gif You are not the cake police.


Yup, true I am not the cake police, and I do do my own thing icon_biggrin.gif, but when I see very talented people risking their livelihoods, it makes my mind boggle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakesCakes

Well, if you wanted to take me on about my practices or policies, I'd want you to do it in a private communication and NOT in a public forum.



Why? If you're operating legally why would any business owner not want to be open and public about how they run their business? Surely if they do that it would actually create a greater selling point and interest. If they've got something to hide and are non-communicative then they will just create suspicion. (A little off topic but a good example of this openness that I recently heard is about Urban Decay (make up). They announced freely to their customers that they will be going into business in China, who may do animal tests on the products. I was grateful for the information, but I no longer will be buying their products due to them allowing even the possibility of animal testing on their products.)

Furthermore, if a business is using public social media to promote and showcase their business then this, in my opinion, clearly indicates that they want feedback about their business, and everything that entails. If they don't they shouldn't be using these sites.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BlakesCakes

If forced to defend myself in a public forum, I'd get nasty, too.



From purely a business marketing viewpoint, this would create a perfect opportunity to be open about your business practices and to promote yourself in a professional manner, so there would be no benefit to them getting "nasty". Perhaps I have a naive way of thinking icon_smile.gif, but if it were me I'd welcome questions from each end of the spectrum about my business practices... whether they be questions about what ingredients I use or copyright questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by scp1127

In response to Blakes, this is the business forum. If someone posts in the business forum, be prepared for a business related answer.



Totally agree with this. Another reason why I posted on this board - I am trying to see it all from a business standpoint. Not here to ruffle feathers, or for that matter to ruffle feathers of the business that practice illegally. I wanted to find out how people who are more experienced in this business industry, how they deal with this (taboo) subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SugaredSaffron

I know who you are talking about and to be honest I would have sent a private message if I had a problem about it. If the cakes in question weren't so popular, would you have been so annoyed?



I think you missed my point completely. I am not annoyed, jealous or spiteful, I am genuinely curious as to why in this industry copyright/IP theft is seen by the majority as "OK", and as such should be ignored. Yet in other artistic endeavors (music, film, fine art etc) it is fiercely frowned upon.

And yes they are popular, for a very good reason, the baker is very talented, but I am not annoyed at her talent - I have been following her creations for a while now (as well as many other talented bakers/artists) and I am inspired by them; that they can create wonderful edible art. But when they start showcasing items that they have no legal right too and have the audacity to use actual copyrighted graphics on top of all that and profit from it all, I kinda lose respect for them as an artist and a business.

At the end of the day this will be a business for me and the bakers who do this type of work, like it or not, will be my competition. I understand that from a logical standpoint that I shouldn't care, and should do my own thing - which I already said I would be/have been doing - but was curious on how others in the same industry handle these situations. And I thank you all for your replies and input, it has given me a lot to think about. <3

SugaredSaffron Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 12:32pm

I said annoyed because that was the tone of the first post. As for copyright in other disciplines, I think you'll find that decorators do not like their own work being copied (without credit) or their photos being used by other people. Its the same for music, art etc but this is different.

Here a cake artist is taking inspiration, or straight lifting ideas/images from things that are in a completely different industry. Taking characters from a book or a film and then turning into a cake or cupcakes. Similar to the T-shirt in the market that has Rihanna's face on it, or some slogan from a movie. Copying music and spreading it around arguably has a direct effect on the musician. Those people who might have been inclined to purchase the song wont, now that they have it for free. A person who wants a 007 cake isn't hurting the pocket of the producers by purchasing or eating the cake. I think it actually helps build brand awareness and is kind of free advertising. The cupcakes you're talking about actually got people to google the characters, take a look at the stories etc. I wouldn't be suprised if a few people actually bought the stories after seeing how cute they are.

I'm not talking about the morals or the legality here, I'm just explaining why I think people are less inclined to care about copyright here.

cakecraving Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 1:11pm

I am a little confused. I have made a SpongeBob cake, a Falcons cake and so on. Since I dont sell my cakes and only make for family and friends am I legal or not. I dont want to get into any trouble. Thanks icon_smile.gif

Makonakins Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 1:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SugaredSaffron

Here a cake artist is taking inspiration, or straight lifting ideas/images from things that are in a completely different industry



It doesn't matter if it's in a different industry, it's still theft. And as we all know brands like to diversify into other markets with it's merchandise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SugaredSaffron

A person who wants a 007 cake isn't hurting the pocket of the producers by purchasing or eating the cake. I think it actually helps build brand awareness and is kind of free advertising.



I have to disagree, it could hurt a brand a lot, especially if the work is not up to par and the creator has not been given permission. (Fake watches, bags etc spring to mind.)

For example, this is especially evident on Etsy where a number of "artists" are creating copious amounts of Hello Kitty merchandise and profiting from it without Sanrio's permission. Just because Sanrio haven't created XYZ items, doesn't mean other people are allowed to.

And what if the brand in question wants to get into the business of selling cakes or character figure toppers for cakes? Like a lot do, which are sold in supermarkets etc. Yes they may not be as good/tasty as the bespoke and custom ones but that's the choice the owner of the brand/character has given it's customers. So the whole theory that it wouldn't hurt these business is without merit.

I think if the tables were turned, and it was small business or artist who had come up with an idea/character/whatever and had it stolen by a well known "big" business, then there would be uproar. But because the majority of these companies that own the rights to the characters we're talking about are making tons of money, then it's seen by many that it's ok to steal from them. Sorry I don't buy that. icon_biggrin.gif And trying to convince me that stealing is ok just because the originator is in a different industry doesn't wash with me either. icon_smile.gif

gatorcake Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makonakins

Just a little bit of a vent really. I won't disclose names, but I am sick of being seen as the "bad guy if I mention IP/copyright theft in comments/posts on baking blogs or facebook.




One thing to consider is how you address question. You do not say how you address the issue--for instance do you pose a question (did you get permission?), do you make a statement (you are violating copyright), etc. Consider this carefully as it is easy for the person you addressing to see you essentially calling them a thief or characterizing their practice as a form of theft. You are doing this on public forums, are you are surprised why people reacting negatively? How would you react if after opening a cake business someone posted on a public forum that intimated you were a thief and /or engaging in theft?

And before others jump in and say it is a form of theft, that is not the point, The point is you are calling out particular practices in a public forum. Whatever your personal motives you are marking the product as illegal. Thus it is not surprising that individuals react negatively. You are not posting a question in a business forum. You are not responding to a picture posted in a business forum. You are publicly calling out others and frankly it is understandable that people react negatively.

As Blake notes if you are motivated out of a desire to help people protect their businesses then do it in private. If this is you motive, there is simply no reason to address the issue in public. But do not be surprised if individual do not appreciate your unsolicited advice. If it is something more like educating the public, do not be surprised that individuals are going to be unhappy with you using them as an example.

The simple fact is people are not going to take kindly to being called a thief publicly. If you do not want to be seen as the "bad guy" then stop addressing the question in public. But if you feel it is important to raise the issue then you should not expect people to be happy about it.

SugaredSaffron Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 1:34pm

Honestly, I don't actually care, its not what I like to do and it doesn't affect my business. as I clearly said, I was just posting why I felt people in the cake business are much more relaxed about copyrighted characters. I wasn't trying to convince you stealing is okay, so there's really no need for the amateur dramatics. I just don't get why you need to get your nose out of joint at someone's business practices which don't affect yours in any way shape or form. So much so that you need to 'rant' on a pulic forum where its pretty easy to figure out who you're ranting about.

I would love it if someone did a canvas based on my work, or wrote a song about my shizzle icon_smile.gif

Makonakins Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 1:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatorcake

But if you feel it is important to raise the issue then you should not expect people to be happy about it.



I think you're right; I am going to have to accept that people who essentially get "caught", or who are questioned about their business practices (and are guilty), will not be happy about it at any juncture, whether they are asked in public or private. The only real consequence and difference, if the issue is raised in a public or social forum and not privately, is improved awareness regarding copyright theft.

Pearl645 Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 2:05pm

Well when I finally got clarification and so much knowledge about using character pans and using licensed cake toppers I felt really bad about my situation. I had no idea until this thread I wasn't allowed to sell character cakes. In fact I just took them down from my website. In my tiny island we don't know about these laws only until we start doing U.S. research and talking to ppl on CC. I just saw someone post a nemo cake and it got lots of favourites.Am I to assume they got permission to make Nemo out of gumpaste? I have an upcoming order for snoopy cookies and snoopy character cake pops. What do I do now? Do I write disney and ask for their permission or do I now turn down every licensed cake figure job? Just trying to operate my business legally.

Makonakins Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 2:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SugaredSaffron

Honestly, I don't actually care, its not what I like to do and it doesn't affect my business.


That's great for you and I respect your opinion. After all that's why I posted, to vent a little and to get some feedback on how other people in the industry feel about the copyright issue. And from your posts it's obvious that you're on the other end of the spectrum from me on this issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SugaredSaffron

I wasn't trying to convince you stealing is okay, so there's really no need for the amateur dramatics.



I have to respectfully disagree. You condoned theft based on it being in a different industry and that in your opinion it wouldn't affect the owners of the license. And I am not being "dramatic", merely stating my own opinions and facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SugaredSaffron

I just don't get why you need to get your nose out of joint at someone's business practices which don't affect yours in any way shape or form. So much so that you need to 'rant' on a pulic forum where its pretty easy to figure out who you're ranting about.



Once again I think you've misunderstood. Perhaps I'm not getting my viewpoint across correctly. My nose isn't out of joint... please see my earlier posts about my intentions.
And granted, currently this does not *yet* affect me directly, but could in the future.

In response to me coming to a public cake business forum to discuss copyright theft (and yes vent a little bit) I make no apologies. If people, like yourself, feel the need to use google and find out where the issue originated, then that's their business. But I have remained professional in the fact I have not disclosed any names.

scp1127 Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 2:15pm

There are numerous articles about how protected property theft hurts the owners. The law is slowly catching up with the web. Just recently, FBI task forces, our tax dollars, have had to be assigned to theft and duplication. I have posted this a hundred times, but there is a reason why the feds set the number of duplications at 10 when converting a civil tort to a federal crime. It is there for the property holder's discretion.

To be blunt, this country and our civilization would not be where it is without those two very important laws, vital to our very mortality. With no copyright/trademark laws, we would have no Disney, MRI machines and medical breakthroughs, books, research, on and on...

These products and writings are all protected, allowing the holder to reap the benefits of the researchand creation, and to be able to realize the much deserved financial rewards.

I see nothing wrong with calling it whatever it is and I don't care who gets ruffled. This is the business forum. I will bet that those of us on CC who do post the true information, given the readership and membership of CC, have been monumental in the sheer numbers of bakers and decorators who can no longer claim ignorance on the subject. But ignorance is no excuse...

Stealing is morally and ethically wrong in all cultures. Until the web catches up legally, those who see an opportunity to benefit at the expense of others will see it as ok until they are caught. It really doesn't matter what the individual thinks, those of us with an education are well aware of the great value of those laws to our everyday quality and longevity of life.

For the poster asking about home use, it is still infringement. The courts do look at the size of the compensation when awarding damages, but it could be an issue. If I had to guess, I think that when the law does catch up, the home bakers with no compensation will more likely get C&D letters, giving them a chance to stop vs. a fine. For those who were compensated, the law may not be so forgiving.

The law is catching up with smaller and smaller operations. If you actually research the subject instead of just posting opinions, you will see this. This is why it is only a matter of time before it hits this industry. Remember, it could be two years from now that you get a charge for a cake posted today, and over 10 violations could be potentially much longer in how far they go back. So you have to look at where inforcement will be in two years for the picture you post today. And many are cached so it doesn't help to later take it down.

Just think, if every cake on the web that violates this law actually bought the little $8.00 cheap version of the legal options, how much would that be? How much on CC alone? If there weren't so much theft, the holders may have been able to actually market more detailed kits and we all could benefit.

SugaredSaffron Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 2:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Makonakins

Quote:
Originally Posted by SugaredSaffron

Honestly, I don't actually care, its not what I like to do and it doesn't affect my business.

That's great for you and I respect your opinion. After all that's why I posted, to vent a little and to get some feedback on how other people in the industry feel about the copyright issue. And from your posts it's obvious that you're on the other end of the spectrum from me on this issue.

I have to respectfully disagree. You condoned theft based on it being in a different industry and that in your opinion it wouldn't affect the owners of the license. And I am not being "dramatic", merely stating my own opinions and facts.

Once again I think you've misunderstood. Perhaps I'm not getting my viewpoint across correctly. My nose isn't out of joint... please see my earlier posts about my intentions.
And granted, currently this does not *yet* affect me directly, but could in the future.

In response to me coming to a public cake business forum to discuss copyright theft (and yes vent a little bit) I make no apologies. If people, like yourself, feel the need to use google and find out where the issue originated, then that's their business. But I have remained professional in the fact I have not disclosed any names.




No, you are the one who has missunderstood. Clearly you were annoyed when you posted 'Headdesk, rant etc', and annoyed that the person you berated didn't take your advice. Just to help you, I'll repeat what I said:

I'm not talking about the morals or the legality here, I'm just explaining why I think people are less inclined to care about copyright here.

I don't do character cakes, personally I wouldn't recreate copyrighted characters. You asked for reasoning why and I gave it to you. I'm not asking you to agree, but you'd be much better of reading peoples post and judging the content as oppose to assuming things that aren't true. And be clear, for the most part you we're stating your opinion, and that is not fact.

gatorcake Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scp1127


I see nothing wrong with calling it whatever it is and I don't care who gets ruffled. This is the business forum. I will bet that those of us on CC who do post the true information, given the readership and membership of CC, have been monumental in the sheer numbers of bakers and decorators who can no longer claim ignorance on the subject. But ignorance is no excuse..




Irrelevant, the OP has nothing to do with discussion in the business forum. The OP is addressing the question on cake blogs and on Facebook. Publicly question the ethics and integrity of an individual (and for the record the OP notes they do not know whether or not the individuals in question have permissions) you are doing more than simply responding to questions raised in a business forum.

You want to publicly call out others that is certainly your prerogative but don't be surprised when people look upon you unkindly even if they agree with the idea that one should not appropriate other's intellectual property. There is simply no reason to do it in public when it can be done in private, particularly when you have no idea whether or not they have permissions.

jason_kraft Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 2:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by scp1127

I cannot imagine where you get your percentages. My inbox has been full for two years with people who actually do care about the legalities of doing business and proper business procedure.



Same here, I get many more PMs and emails that are appreciative of the discussion of legal issues and copyright here than I see negative responses (which are often just repeated by the same vocal minority).

I do agree that tone is important, on both sides of the issue. If you are bringing up copyright you should be careful to be inquisitive as opposed to accusatory, and if you are arguing against it you should try to avoid personal attacks.

I also prefer to use the term copyright infringement instead of theft, and I try to avoid the term "piracy", unless the infringement is occurs on the high seas.

Makonakins Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 2:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SugaredSaffron

for the most part you we're stating your opinion, and that is not fact.



Please stop putting words into my mouth - I didn't say that my opinion was a fact. However copyright theft is illegal and that is a fact. I also did not "berate" or scold them angrily.

As I have said before I respect your opinion, but don't agree with it - so thanks for your input and your thoughts behind the reasons why copyright theft is not a big deal to some.

I also want to thank Scp1127 for their latest post - very insightful and informative. One of the reasons why I love cakecentral... all the helpful information people are willing to post. And I agree ignorance is no excuse, although saying that when I first started this as a hobby I knew fundamentally that "copying" was frowned upon and wrong but didn't realise the extent of how far copyright law can reach or have any interest in finding out more till I came to CC.

scp1127 Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 2:52pm

I personally have no idea, and I don't care, who this person is in the OP.

Gatorcake, you respond to my posts the same way every time. My posts are relevant to an above post, not necessarily the OP. I always appreciate a true rebuttal vs just a negative "pick" for the sake of a negative response..

BlakesCakes Posted 12 Jun 2012 , 4:53pm

Well, I'm late back to the party, but here goes:

I was responding the very public aspect of calling someone out on THEIR blog or THEIR FB page, as noted by the OP---not HERE on CC in the Business Forum. I think people would see negative comments and question on THOSE as way to close to home and be inclined to respond strongly & negatively as a matter of self defense.

I never said, or even implied, "....... that the majority of people in business, cake or any business, want to be in the dark about their profession." I wasn't citing specific figures for agreement, or disagreement by "people in business". I was making a generalization that the majority of people do get angry with the messenger.

But I will say that from the OP's post, I imagine him/her posting on cake blogs & FB pages in a way that IS perceived as offensive by the business owner(s) and that he/she gets less than positive feedback for being so............informative.

So, scp1127, your assessment of my response has virtually nothing to do with what I was actually responding to.

I'd say, in general, that attacking someone's business practices, unsolicited & out of the blue, on a public forum would be seen as wrong by most people. It's pollyannaish to think you would be welcomed with open arms for having "opened their eyes".

I didn't say that others reading the posts might not be grateful for the insights provided. We see that here all of the time and that's the benefit of open discussion. I just think the same results could be reached by posts that are information based--ONLY--and not so geared toward first calling out/preaching to/embarrassing the poster, and only then providing educational information.

As for the question to me, by the OP, of about why I would be upset about being attacked in a public forum about my business practices if I were "..... operating legally.", I would be upset because I would see their behavior as rude & UNPROFESSIONAL . If your behavior is viewed as that of a busy-body or marauder, then that's how you'll be treated.

I don't know you from Adam. You have no right, whatsoever, to assume that I want, or need, to explain myself to you in a public forum. Yes, you have a very naive way of thinking icon_smile.gif

Not every person wants themselves, or their business practices, to be flayed open on the internet for everyone, including competitors, to see. There is reasonable transparency, but that's rarely total transparency.

And finally, as for getting PMs about our posts here on CC---the ones I get are supportive.

Rae

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