Being on this site not very long, I already know who will come after someone (more times than not-off topic) about being legal and copyright issues, who has snarky comebacks, and those that have the "better than you" type attitudes. Some will go after people making copyrighted character cakes, yet how come with all the pictures being posted every single day, not one comment on those cakes mentions the copyright law??
I see this type of comment quite a bit, and frankly I'm a little puzzled. In my experience it is rare to see someone "go after" someone else (the implication here being malicious intent/personal attacks) for legal or copyright issues, the intent is simply to inform. More often than not people will reply to, say, a pricing thread saying that their state may require XYZ to be a legal home bakery and this should be factored in to the price instead of demanding to know if they are legal or not.
It is more common to see someone posting a factual, informative, on-topic message have that message misinterpreted and come under attack from others and/or the OP with malicious personal attacks, as we've seen in this very thread. When this happens it often escalates into a flame war that could have been avoided if the original factual message had not been taken personally or if the personal attacks are ignored (admittedly the latter is more difficult).
It is never OK to post personal attacks publicly. If you feel the need to make fun of or attack someone please keep it to private messages. If you think someone is attacking you, the best thing to do is to just ignore them, and if you can't do that, again try to resolve things via private messages.
Not sure what the issue about insulting someone's parenting skills is about, I must have missed that one.
just to add...
it's all about perception and framing...what people read, they have their own experiences and use that to write what they want to write. Then, when another person reads it they read it how they wanted to read it and continue the situation. We cannot hear infliction in our voices or know the background of the person posting, but only know our own.
in my opinion, this is what has been happening on this site. instead of folks just putting out information as in "hey i know this!" they make a post like "you HAVE to be licensed to do this and if you're not you're in the wrong" etc or whatever how they write it.
Jason, I find your posts to be very informative. and I know that with you being a guy you are just putting out facts and don't have an ill intent behind anything you post on here.
Also going back to the question in the OP it only seems to happen so often because when flame wars start the thread in question keeps getting pushed up to the top of the forum.
There are many, many business-related threads here that are quickly and definitively answered without any drama, but you may not notice them when the threads with infighting monopolize the attention of the community.
Jason, I find your posts to be very informative. and I know that with you being a guy you are just putting out facts and don't have an ill intent behind anything you post on here.
Yeah, not anymore...Some people changed their attitude for the better. This thread brings me deja vu feelings...
http://cakecentral.com/cake-decorating-ftopic-723008-135.html
Jason, I find your posts to be very informative. and I know that with you being a guy you are just putting out facts and don't have an ill intent behind anything you post on here.
Yeah, not anymore...Some people changed their attitude for the better. This thread brings me deja vu feelings...
http://cakecentral.com/cake-decorating-ftopic-723008-135.html
and that thread actually makes my point...it's all interpretation and how people frame things (i just skimmed things). also, i'm not saying I've agreed with all of his posts. This is NOT a personal attack. But, i would rather 
omg, and most of the time i don't even notice if it's in a business forum
pps: is that bad?
I don't know what forum a thread is in half the time, since I use the consolidated "new posts" page to check the site:
http://www.cakecentral.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=search&search_id=newposts
But it really doesn't matter, since a question about pricing usually involves business/legal issues no matter which forum it's in.
Jason, I find your posts to be very informative. and I know that with you being a guy you are just putting out facts and don't have an ill intent behind anything you post on here.
Yeah, not anymore...Some people changed their attitude for the better. This thread brings me deja vu feelings...
http://cakecentral.com/cake-decorating-ftopic-723008-135.html
The thread you linked to (which is over 9 months old, before you joined the site) was created in part because I made a mistake in another thread and assumed the OP was asking about a commercial transaction. I apologized in both threads (the other thread is linked from my post below) and I'd like to think I've been more careful about that since then.
http://cakecentral.com/cake-decorating-ftopicp-7153660.html#7153660
omg, and most of the time i don't even notice if it's in a business forum
pps: is that bad?I don't know what forum a thread is in half the time, since I use the consolidated "new posts" page to check the site:
http://www.cakecentral.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=search&search_id=newposts
But it really doesn't matter, since a question about pricing usually involves business/legal issues no matter which forum it's in.
this is something I don't agree with. Who has made this rule on this forum? I've been on this site for a long time now and the way it used to be is very different from now because of these types of questions.
this is truly rhetorical as I don't really care if people are legal or what everyone else's reasons are behind asking these questions over and over.
*runs away* 
But it really doesn't matter, since a question about pricing usually involves business/legal issues no matter which forum it's in.
this is something I don't agree with. Who has made this rule on this forum?
No one made up a rule, it's just the way it is. If you are charging for your products in the hopes of making money then you are de facto running a business. If you know your state has certain requirements and you choose not to follow them that's fine (no one can force you to do anything), but many people do not know what the laws are in their area and I don't think there's any harm in encouraging people to find out so they can more accurately price their products.
To be clear, when I say a post involves business and legal issues I don't mean it's OK to immediately demand to know the legal status/license number/inspection status/etc., just that all pertinent information should be considered when making a decision like pricing a product. If the OP says that they live in a CFL state and have no overhead or they pay $X for a commercial kitchen that's one thing, but you simply can't accurately answer the question "how much should I charge" without knowing that information.
[quote="ChristineCMC"]First let me say that I am not trying to start anything nor do I have an agenda.
Oh my goodness thank you so much for saying that! I have been the victim of a "Verbal pistol whipping" on here and it really is hurtful to come to a forum looking for support, encouragement, and advice and instead get snarky comments and leave feeling like I've been wasting my time even trying to do this...
I made the comment awhile back about being examples to our children. After repeatedly being beat up over the legal/illegal issue, posters were justifying why it was ok to defy the law and how to get around it. Finally I got tired of post after post of why the laws do not need to be followed and all of the personal attacks. One of my comments was that our children are watching us. We are the example that they follow. This is a true statement that has quite a big following in the human race. It wasn't personal, it was just a fact. My point was to be aware that it may not be true that you are not hurting anyone when you choose to openly defy the law.
I'll be the first to own up to any comment I make. You are welcomed to just post my name instead of the "someone said" statement. But be prepared that I may justify that statement by giving the context of the thread and post.
This is not a scrapbooking or knitting site. To be in business in these trades, you just need a local business license. But with food, it is regulated by the government in many places in the world. Specific licenses, many times with expensive codes of compliance, are required. So because of the essence of what this site is all about, food products, if money, ingredients or a favor changes hands, most HD's (and the IRS) want to know about it. Therefore, any mention of compensation, or the use of the words client, customer, or business, means that the poster should expect the comments to answered or commented on within legal business parameters.
Don't you find it odd that some people are so offended when the legalities of business are mentioned?
I must confess there are some new threads I read, and just know when certain folks show up, it's going to be on and popping
I've never been disappointed. 
and then they are the ones saying things like: "I'm not bullying you; I'm not attacking you; I don't know how I offended you."
...and to think....some of them are parents!
I must confess there are some new threads I read, and just know when certain folks show up, it's going to be on and popping
I've never been disappointed. and then they are the ones saying things like: "I'm not bullying you; I'm not attacking you; I don't know how I offended you."
...and to think....some of them are parents!
Can you clarify what you mean by the last part of your statement?
Without nonverbal cues it is in fact quite easy to misunderstand a post (or private msg/email/text/etc) and assume ill intent when none was present.
I must confess there are some new threads I read, and just know when certain folks show up, it's going to be on and popping
I've never been disappointed. and then they are the ones saying things like: "I'm not bullying you; I'm not attacking you; I don't know how I offended you."
...and to think....some of them are parents!
Can you clarify what you mean by the last part of your statement?
Without nonverbal cues it is in fact quite easy to misunderstand a post (or private msg/email/text/etc) and assume ill intent when none was present.
I was saying what scp1127 was saying, but she said it much better (And I did not see her post as you can see we only posted a minute between each other.)
Just that parents forget their children was watching ALL THE TIME! I've done my time in teaching and retail and it amazes me how grown adults will behave right in front of their children. I don't believe for a minute that the 'bullies" on these boards sing a different tune when their children are around.
Being on this site not very long, I already know who will come after someone (more times than not-off topic) about being legal and copyright issues, who has snarky comebacks, and those that have the "better than you" type attitudes. Some will go after people making copyrighted character cakes, yet how come with all the pictures being posted every single day, not one comment on those cakes mentions the copyright law??
I see this type of comment quite a bit, and frankly I'm a little puzzled. In my experience it is rare to see someone "go after" someone else (the implication here being malicious intent/personal attacks) for legal or copyright issues, the intent is simply to inform. More often than not people will reply to, say, a pricing thread saying that their state may require XYZ to be a legal home bakery and this should be factored in to the price instead of demanding to know if they are legal or not.
It is more common to see someone posting a factual, informative, on-topic message have that message misinterpreted and come under attack from others and/or the OP with malicious personal attacks, as we've seen in this very thread. When this happens it often escalates into a flame war that could have been avoided if the original factual message had not been taken personally or if the personal attacks are ignored (admittedly the latter is more difficult).
It is never OK to post personal attacks publicly. If you feel the need to make fun of or attack someone please keep it to private messages. If you think someone is attacking you, the best thing to do is to just ignore them, and if you can't do that, again try to resolve things via private messages.
General discourse here has actually improved quite a bit over the past year or so. A handful of members used to consistently attack posters (including me) who were answering business related questions, they were either banned or moved on to another site so you don't see flame wars nearly as often as you used to.
Not sure what the issue about insulting someone's parenting skills is about, I must have missed that one.
***************************************************
If you've never seen it, then we must not be reading the same posts.
Let's also remember that it's difficult to detect somone's tone in a forum (just as it is an e-mail, text message, etc.). It's VERY easy to interpret a malicious or "on a soapbox" tone when somone is being direct when that is not the poster's intent. I'm not saying this is ALWAYS the case, especially when it starts to go back and forth - then it really does seem like personal attacks.
Yes, sometimes it can be intimidating to post a question, but at least I know I'm getting straight answers.
And lastly, there will always be "hot topics" that will get people wired up, no matter how innocent the OPs intent. Like politics, it's often difficult for people who feel strongly about things to admit to, or even imagine, that a gray area can exist. When one has a strong opinion about something, it will always create a heated discussion.
well I can't post the link to the thread that had me in tears for 2 days as it was removed by cake central because it had gotten so abusive.... however, the same names showed up here over and over again. It is constantly the same people that turn things negative and chalk it up to "telling it straight" or "if you didn't want to hear my opinion, you shouldn't have posted int he first place". It's like the anonymous mob mentality kicks in and they just start attacking - all the while saying "I'm not attacking you". Please, you can rationalize your behavior all you want, but at the end of the day there is a right way and a wrong way to talk to people, no matter the content or topic.
And secondly, not everyone that posts questions in the business forum is a novice. Perhaps someone just has a specific question about a specific situation. Who are you to then go on criticizing every aspect of that persons business? Who's to say the way you run your business is better than they way they run theirs? I was attacked repeatedly about everything from my pricing structure to my businesses website, however I went on to a few of the people's website that were criticizing mine and some of them were laughable. But I know that if I DARED say anything about anything that had to do with their business it would have been like throwing gasoline on a fire.
Bottom line is that most of the constantly negative posters would probably feel much differently if the tables were turned on them...
well I can't post the link to the thread that had me in tears for 2 days as it was removed by cake central because it had gotten so abusive.... however, the same names showed up here over and over again. It is constantly the same people that turn things negative and chalk it up to "telling it straight" or "if you didn't want to hear my opinion, you shouldn't have posted int he first place". It's like the anonymous mob mentality kicks in and they just start attacking - all the while saying "I'm not attacking you". Please, you can rationalize your behavior all you want, but at the end of the day there is a right way and a wrong way to talk to people, no matter the content or topic.
And secondly, not everyone that posts questions in the business forum is a novice. Perhaps someone just has a specific question about a specific situation. Who are you to then go on criticizing every aspect of that persons business? Who's to say the way you run your business is better than they way they run theirs? I was attacked repeatedly about everything from my pricing structure to my businesses website, however I went on to a few of the people's website that were criticizing mine and some of them were laughable. But I know that if I DARED say anything about anything that had to do with their business it would have been like throwing gasoline on a fire.
Bottom line is that most of the constantly negative posters would probably feel much differently if the tables were turned on them...
I thought that was you - - glad you're still around. I stated my opinion in one thread - and it was shared by others. A reply was posted and was there just long enough for me to see it before it was deleted. I don't know who deleted it, but I saw it. I was accused of being a hypocrite and of saying "mean and hateful things". I pm'd the person, but to this point she hasn't had the courtesy to reply. It was so unexpected that I was really thrown for a loop. So I don't post very often anymore, but I will continue to try to help someone else if I have information they need,
if I was the person you PM'd, the reason I haven't had the "courtesy" to reply is because after the incident I deleted that account and debated weather or not to even come back to cake central at all. So your message was sent to an inactive account, that is why there was no response.
I don't post often...but here is my chime....
I never allow my lack of knowledge on something make me feel stupid....EVER...nor would ever allow the nameless, faceless persons on this forum make me feel stupid or make me cry for 2 days....
And since the name of this post is entitled: "I just don't get it"...what I don't get is how an adult would let someone they don't know, living in far far away, ever...EVER make them feel bullied...bullying is a term for children who lack the skills to defend themselves.....as an adult you should have by now acquired these social skills.
Why in the world give so much power to someone you don't even know and who doesn't make one whit of a difference in your "real" life (you know the life away from CC message boards)
and "turning the tables"...be careful lest you become what you decry.
Anyway just my two cents
if I was the person you PM'd, the reason I haven't had the "courtesy" to reply is because after the incident I deleted that account and debated weather or not to even come back to cake central at all. So your message was sent to an inactive account, that is why there was no response.
NO it wasn't you. I'm sorry, I didn't mean you to get that idea. I really am glad you're still here because I remember that entire thread. That was not a good day and noone came out looking very good.
And since the name of this post is entitled: "I just don't get it"...what I don't get is how an adult would let someone they don't know, living in far far away, ever...EVER make them feel bullied...bullying is a term for children who lack the skills to defend themselves.....as an adult you should have by now acquired these social skills.
clearly you have never been the target of such a circumstance, luckily for you. I consider myself a VERY strong individual, and probably would have said and felt the same things you just said...before I was the target of it. What happens is, when you have to defend yourself over and over again, it becomes emotionally exhausting, it quite literally wears you down. And you can say, well just ignore it, don't respond. That's is precisely what I tried to do, and then they starting showing up on my business's facebook page with things to to say. It was now crossing over into the real world, messing with my business is messing with my livelihood. So I am thankful that you have not encountered this kind of situation, but it is naive to say "bullying" is something that only happened to children who cannot defend themselves.
". . . . . then they starting showing up on my business's facebook page with things to to say. It was now crossing over into the real world, messing with my business is messing with my livelihood. So I am thankful that you have not encountered this kind of situation, but it is naive to say "bullying" is something that only happened to children who cannot defend themselves."
At that point I'd say that things had passed from "give and take" to beyond "bullying" and into the realm of harrassment. Harrassment, if it interferes with your livlihood, can have legal repercussions for the one who is doing the harrassing.
Note directed at Leah only using it as an example of the kind of self-serving justification that routinely appears in this forum.
This is simply a self-serving justification for aggressive and insulting responses. Have seen this excuse posted more than once---if you want flowers and hugs go to the decorating forum, if you want people to tell it straight come here. Whether or not those describe the general orientations of each forum, they do not account for how "one tells is straight." There is a difference between offering constructive advice designed to educate and engaging in presumptuous lecturing underwritten by a tone of self-righteousness. One need look no further than responses which include "our children are watching" for instances of things that go beyond educating or helping address legal questions. They smack of self-righteousness (as if the poster is morally pure) and are insulting by explicitly questioning the parenting skills of the poster.
You want to help people become legal? Fine. You want to help clarify questions about what constitutes copyright infringement? Fine. You want to explain to someone how pricing decisions include any number of calculations including licencing fees, inspections? Fine. But note, that response does not require you to questions one's legal status first. You simply provide the information when asked what would you charge for X.
Providing that information without asking does not make a presumption about the poster's legal status as it factually states all the costs that you must calculate into a pricing scheme. If they do not have those costs well that is for them to decide to what to do with the information, it is informative and instructional without becoming self-righteous lecturing. This kind of response is a far cry from beginning a post based on the question "are you legal?" or trying to deduce their legal status by what they have posted.
If you are concerned about aiding an unlicensed operation then do not respond. If your reason for responding is that is helps others who may see the thread, then why do you care if they are legal? You are not interested in helping the original poster so you should not worry about uncovering their legal status because you note--the information is not for them. You don't want things to turn into a flame look to your own practices before you accuse others.
And there is most certainly a difference when you insult other posters (whose personal situations you have no idea about) parenting skills. Since when did business discussions include discussions of parent skills? That you are telling it "straight" does not excuse presumptuous, abusive, aggressive, and/or insulting discourse.
VERY well said.
Second that! So well said, it needs to be framed on here.
[quote="labelle24"]
clearly you have never been the target of such a circumstance, luckily for you.
Not really luck, I just would never consider myself a target
[quote="labelle24"]
I consider myself a VERY strong individual, and probably would have said and felt the same things you just said...before I was the target of it. What happens is, when you have to defend yourself over and over again, it becomes emotionally exhausting, it quite literally wears you down.
If you mean continual response to a flame war as "defending" yourself....I just don't get why you would allow yourself to get worn down and exhausted, step away from the computer......if you mean the repeated defense of your business, under attack, then I can completely understand the exhaustions...I have to agree with cakeyouverymuch..this is beyond the realm of flame war or "bullying" (if that is how one feels about it) and now into the legal realm of harrassment, which has a rememdy...legal wise and facebook wise.
But, as an observation of mine, the entire time I have been a member of this board, there have always been people that have felt others are rude, mean, bullyish...etc...last year there was a big ban of some members who were thought to fall into that category, and yet here we are....still discussing the same issue a year later, and I would imagine that it had been discussed long before either you or I were members. Unfotunately those kinds of people exist in all walks of life, and the only thing one can do is keep your chin up and your bootstraps strong.
in any event, I hope things are better for you.
I just wanted to chime in and say that even though I have never been personally attacked, I could totally see myself crying for two days over it if it were to happen. Even though I haven't met any of you (at least as far as I know!), I feel like we're a part of a community with the common interest of cake making. And I feel like I do expose a little part of myself here that my other friends can't understand. So even though we're strangers, I appreciate all those who have been so very helpful on here (which is the vast majority). It makes my day when people give me nice comments and helpful information. And I'm very grateful that so far I haven't been attacked! Although, I think it helps that I'm a hobby baker. 
Allrighty, my 2 cents...
I don't ever see bullying here. This site is practically Disneyland. If you feel bullied here I suggest turning off your computer permanently and giving it to charity because it's a scary, big, mean world out there, and I dare say you might not be able to handle it. 
Look, women that run successful business are aggressive. Just like men that run businesses are aggressive. The differences is men are called "awesome" and women are called "bitches". The biggest problem I see here is the women that think to go into business decorating cakes tend to be sensitive, artistic types that dream of decorating cakes all day and making people happy. That is a fantasy... ask anyone that does this for longer then 6 months. I know I spend more time doing my books, writing contracts, updating my website, ordering supplies, pimping my product, and coming up with new and interesting ways to make my business stand out then I do actually making cake. I guess if there is a business that has managed to live the fantasy please let me know how you do it without hiring someone to do it for you because it sounds awesome
Cake Central is a place where if you post your business information and ask business advice, you are going to be peer reviewed, just like in any other business. I welcome it! If you see something I am doing that you feel is illegal or immoral, or even if you see a misspelling on my website... I hope you would have the professional courtesy to let me know so I can correct it because chances are really good that I didn't know and really want to do the right and legal thing. And I especially don't want to look like an illiterate dumb@ss on my webpage.
I want to caution people judging others based on past threads that have been deleted - you don't really know *why* it was deleted or what really happened. I don't want to stir the pot and want bygones be bygones (really, I do!) but I'm fairly certain I know who you used to be and what thread you are talking about, Isabell24. I think it's probably best for all, since you created a new profile looking to clean the slate, that you avoid bringing up your past dirty laundry unless you want to get back into a very hot topic... one that gets the most heat on here of any topic *ever*. Why would you want to do that??? If you are who I think you might be, you really made a lot of people angry here.
If you are *not* who I think you are I sincerely apologize but the advice is still valid - if you dumped an old profile because nobody liked you and you made people really mad, you may want to never bring it up in your new profile. Bygones be bygones only works if you pretend the past didn't happen.
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