They Lied?

Business By kmstreepey Updated 28 Nov 2016 , 9:49pm by bellacibo

FromScratchSF Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 5:17am
post #91 of 146

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This has been bugging me. I define a "mix" as a commercially prepared powder mix that is so full of chemicals that it makes baking 99% foolproof, no matter how much other junk you add to it. That is the universally accepted idea of what a mix is. Let's stop being obtuse here.

If I take flour, sugar, salt etc. and prepare it in advance, of course I am still baking scratch. icon_rolleyes.gif

There are several professional scratch bakers on this thread alone that have built successful businesses selling their real scratch cake. Clients specifically seek us out because of it and their reasons vary from moral reasons to health complications. These clients want to avoid processed food and unnecessary chemicals, and yes... they start the conversation asking questions to make sure.

These people aren't mythological unicorns no matter how much you want to tell yourselves they don't exist. They do.

So lets playing nice, y'all. Don't lie or stretch the truth. It only makes you look bad.

LoveMeSomeCake615 Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 5:27am
post #92 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by kmstreepey


Given this whole debate, which I honestly didn't mean to start up again with this post, I have to ask, why are box-based cake bakers so defensive when someone brings up scratch baking?




Probably because, from what I have observed, those who bake exclusively from scratch seem to imply that their way is really and truly the best way, and that those who bake from a mix are sub-par, and that their customers are deprived of really good baking, so they don't know any better but to like that nasty mix stuff. Wouldn't that make you a tiny bit defensive?

Even though scratch bakers will swear up and down that if you bake from a mix, say it loud and proud and it's really ok, and don't feel inferior, the fact is that they DO feel mix baking is inferior. At least, that's the impression I get. Am I wrong?

Not that it matters, but as a point of reference for my view point, I bake both scratch and mix based, depending on flavor. And (unless all of our customers are lying to us) everyone loves our cakes, both scratch and mix. Take that for whatever it's worth. And if someone were to ask me point blank if we bake from scratch, I would tell them the truth, that some are mix based and some are from scratch. What's the big frickin' deal? So far not one of our customers has asked.

kelleym Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 5:40am
post #93 of 146

And, we're in the ditch.
LL

FromScratchSF Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 6:35am
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scp1127 Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 9:35am
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Baker Rose, I started my babies on how to make a box mix, but then it was taken to a higher level. My oldest daughter was cranking out yeast breads and rolls when she was 13.

It sure is interesting that we debate this subject. Box mixes are the paint-by-number of baking. Scratch (that is good) is so far above this level.

By this analysis, FromScratch and I both bake from scratch. We would probably be worthy opponants in that area. We also both decorate cakes. Because we are both decorators, are we equal? I am stuck in the middle school of decorating and I have no problem recognizing that in this analysis, FromScratch has her PHD in decorating. I have no problem being honest with my customers.

Other posters have commented and I agree that some scratch baking is worse than box mixes. If you can't bake better than a box, then your scratch baking skill level is very low. That is the honest truth. The debate about people preferring box is because they haven't had a great scratch cake. If they pick your box mixes and your doctored mixes over your scratch, again, your skills are low. Nobody has ever even thought to compare my cakes to a box. It's like comparing cake to pie. The box issue never never comes up because there is no comparison.

It is always comical to me that again, only a tiny few bakers will ever debate that box baking is equal. Ask people on the street what is superior. The few people who belittle the art of scratch baking are only fooling themselves among a global population who have no problem defining the difference between a processed food product and a fine food product.

Again, the lie or skirting the truth is because the baker does not believe in her product and is afraid that if the customer found out, they too would not see the value. In simple economics 101 terms, a sale occurs when the value for a product exceeds the the dollar amount given up. So the lie is in place solely to extract more money from the unsuspecting client than they would give up if the truth were known. Take that business plan to the bank and see if that would get you a loan.

We are priviledged to have a Pennsylvania Dutch Market in our area. They are open 3 days a week and they are always jam packed with customers. If you ask any vendor what is from scratch or what did they make themselves, they will all quickly tell you which items they purchase elsewhere that are processed, which are made fresh or organic from local vendors, and what they make themselves from scratch.

Luckily, there are a multitude of businesses and industries who are proud of their products and portray them honestly. We all know that there are dishonest businesses too. Too many people are successful selling goods and services honestly depicted. They do not have to resort to lies, exaggerations, embellishments, or deceitfully mincing words to be successful.

syarber Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 2:59pm
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Some of my nieces and nephews have food allergies so for me its really important that any where we eat have an ingredient list available. I have been in several bakeries where they thought I was crazy and have even been accused of looking for their secret recipes. icon_confused.gif My personal opinion is that if your going to bake for a living you need to be upfront and honest about your ingredients.

FromScratchSF Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 4:06pm
post #97 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by syarber

Some of my nieces and nephews have food allergies so for me its really important that any where we eat have an ingredient list available. I have been in several bakeries where they thought I was crazy and have even been accused of looking for their secret recipes. icon_confused.gif My personal opinion is that if your going to bake for a living you need to be upfront and honest about your ingredients.




you can't really tell the difference

they really don't have to tell you anything. It's their proprietary right to keep their products and recipes--be they from box or scratch--a secret.

I acquired them at a food distributor. You may think they are the same but I consider stores-bought to be the boxes you buy from Walmart not the mixes I would buy from food distributors.

It translates into "made in-house" versus having been made in a factory and purchased, either fresh, or frozen, by the bakery.

what difference does it make? It's cake!

WHO CARES!!!

it's still possible you were not lied to since the question you specifically asked really wasn't that specific

If the cake taste great isn't that what you are really paying for? Asking if it is made from scratch really makes no sense. I've had box mixes that tasted wonderful and scratch recipes that I fed to my dog. Who cares whether scratch or box, make and sell me a wonderful tasting cake.

After discussing, again, with the owner, it was agreed that when asked if we bake from scratch the answer would be yes...period.

everyone loves our cakes, both scratch and mix. Take that for whatever it's worth. And if someone were to ask me point blank if we bake from scratch, I would tell them the truth, that some are mix based and some are from scratch. What's the big frickin' deal? So far not one of our customers has asked.

These nuggets of BS brought to you by the obtuse box mix bakers in this thread that refuse to actually read what is posted, they just want to make themselves feel better about the lies they tell. Bottom line, all of them could give a rat's @ss about you, your family or your health concerns. To them, YOU ARE A UNICORN THAT DOES NOT EXIST and should just shut up because everyone loves their cake! I mean, the bubble they live in is absolutely how people are everywhere period, no discussion, and people everywhere would absolutely love their cake because everyone does, period, in the entire world, and it's completely impossible that anyone cares about how the cake is made because cake is cake and it doesn't matter because nobody has ever asked them before so that means nobody cares and that no one ever will ever ask and even if they did (but they won't) it doesn't matter because cake is cake and it's OK to say whatever you want because everyone loves loves their cake so suck it scratch bakers. Amiright?

Ob·tuse: Adjective:  Annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.

QTCakes1 Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 4:31pm
post #98 of 146

BAM BAM!!! But, yeah, SF, basically you got it right. Now all I can say is bite me Liars. If it was so great and equal, you wouldn't have to lie about it, now would you.

SugaredSaffron Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 4:39pm
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You craaazzzzyy americans icon_lol.gif

QTCakes1 Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 4:46pm
post #100 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by SugaredSaffron

You craaazzzzyy americans icon_lol.gif




icon_lol.gif We know... thumbs_up.gif

jason_kraft Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 5:26pm
post #101 of 146

Re FromScratch's rant:

Aside from the few posts saying that no one cares and the question does not make sense, most of the quotes in your post are valid points that have added to the discussion.

I understand that you disagree with them, but saying they are BS, and claiming that the posters are obtuse or don't care about their customers is over the line and reflects poorly on all scratch bakers.

FromScratchSF Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 6:16pm
post #102 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_kraft

Re FromScratch's rant:

Aside from the few posts saying that no one cares and the question does not make sense, most of the quotes in your post are valid points that have added to the discussion.

I understand that you disagree with them, but saying they are BS, and claiming that the posters are obtuse or don't care about their customers is over the line and reflects poorly on all scratch bakers.




Ha.

Haha.

Hahahahahaha.

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.

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Seriously killing me here with all this nonsense!

LoveMeSomeCake615 Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 9:48pm
post #103 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by FromScratchSF


These nuggets of BS brought to you by the obtuse box mix bakers in this thread that refuse to actually read what is posted, they just want to make themselves feel better about the lies they tell. Bottom line, all of them could give a rat's @ss about you, your family or your health concerns. To them, YOU ARE A UNICORN THAT DOES NOT EXIST and should just shut up because everyone loves their cake! I mean, the bubble they live in is absolutely how people are everywhere period, no discussion, and people everywhere would absolutely love their cake because everyone does, period, in the entire world, and it's completely impossible that anyone cares about how the cake is made because cake is cake and it doesn't matter because nobody has ever asked them before so that means nobody cares and that no one ever will ever ask and even if they did (but they won't) it doesn't matter because cake is cake and it's OK to say whatever you want because everyone loves loves their cake so suck it scratch bakers. Amiright?

Ob·tuse: Adjective:  Annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.




Ok, did I not SAY that I would tell the truth if asked?? And I wasn't saying that I don't care and no one else cares either. I was merely relating my experience so far, that no one has asked us yet. It just hasn't even come up in conversation with our customers. We have no problem telling them the truth.

Is all the inflammatory stuff really necessary?

QTCakes1 Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 10:00pm
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Lovesmesomecake, if you tell the truth about your product, then obviously she is not directing her comments at you.And nor am I for that matter.

all4cake Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 10:11pm
post #105 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by FromScratchSF

After discussing, again, with the owner, it was agreed that when asked if we bake from scratch the answer would be yes...period.

[/b]




Please, don't take what I said out of context to use as an example of bs. Reread the entire post. If you are left with the message of non-disclosure of information, misleading or deceptive information, read it again.

LoveMeSomeCake615 Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 10:12pm
post #106 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by QTCakes1

Lovesmesomecake, if you tell the truth about your product, then obviously she is not directing her comments at you.And nor am I for that matter.




Well, I would have assumed that, except that she quoted part of my post in her little rant thing. icon_wink.gif

Vista Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 11:09pm
post #107 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by FromScratchSF


These nuggets of BS brought to you by the obtuse box mix bakers in this thread that refuse to actually read what is posted, they just want to make themselves feel better about the lies they tell. Bottom line, all of them could give a rat's @ss about you, your family or your health concerns. To them, YOU ARE A UNICORN THAT DOES NOT EXIST and should just shut up because everyone loves their cake! I mean, the bubble they live in is absolutely how people are everywhere period, no discussion, and people everywhere would absolutely love their cake because everyone does, period, in the entire world, and it's completely impossible that anyone cares about how the cake is made because cake is cake and it doesn't matter because nobody has ever asked them before so that means nobody cares and that no one ever will ever ask and even if they did (but they won't) it doesn't matter because cake is cake and it's OK to say whatever you want because everyone loves loves their cake so suck it scratch bakers. Amiright?

Ob·tuse: Adjective:  Annoyingly insensitive or slow to understand.




WOW, To assume that because I bake from a box that I don't care about my customers is down right ARROGANT! I am always honest with my customers! I do not mind meeting my customers needs/wants. I was once told by a customer that the birthday girl would not be able to eat the cake because of a gluten allergy, having NO experience with gluten free cakes I offered to make a small smash cake, just for the b-day girl that was gluten free, at no charge. It was the first time the 11 year old girl had gotten to eat her birthday cake!!

I personally prefer scratch cake (although I really don't like cake at all), but do not have the skill level to bake from scratch. I am not OBTUSE enough to say that my box cake is a better product. But I can tell you that many people DO prefer box mixes. Is it because they have not had a good scratch cake? Possibly. But who are we to say what our customers would rather have. I am, and will ALWAYS, be honest with my customers. I have no problem admitting that I bake my cakes with a mix.

When I first decided to sell cakes I tried several scratch recipes, but have not found any that I was happy with. I am a stay at home mom/ homeschool mom of 4 kids. I do not have the time or the funds to experiment on recipes just to throw them away (no one in my family eats alot of cake). I recognize that it is an art, one that I have not come close to mastering. If you have, that is great! There is a market for both! It all boils down to integrity. Baking from a box does not mean we lack integrity, it means we lack the skill and/or desire to bake from scratch.

in·teg·ri·ty
Noun:   The quality of being honest and having strong moral principles; moral uprightness.

kelleym Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 11:11pm
post #108 of 146

Ruuuuun, Forrest!
LL

Norasmom Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 11:26pm
post #109 of 146

I have decided to bake all scratch cakes, because I enjoy the baking process. That being said, at one point I baked from box mixes and my customers LOVED those cakes.

FromScratchSF Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 11:57pm
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Sometimes I think 1/2 of the people here are speaking a completely different language.

Nowhere did I say SCRATCH CAKE IS TEH BETTER THEN YOUZ!!!!! anywhere. in. this. thread. Nowhere. Nope, nada. Read again. Ya'rly. I never did. Not once. Not even implied. Not even hinted at. Not even a little bit. I have zero idea what YOU have been talking about, but I have been talking about honesty in business practices.

I'll sum up: Point #1: It's a big world with lots of people that want different stuff then you. I know, crazy, right? That other people actually want and may actually NEED different things? And there might just be someone, other then you, to provide that product or service? Shocking! Stop the insanity!

Point #2: Lying about a product is lying. Gasp! Choke! OMG!

There.

It's very simple: Do you lie? Do you think your customers don't have a right to question you? If so, then yeah, I'm calling you a liar and strongly implying that your business strategy sucks.

BUT... If you don't and you are honest then you need to take a chill pill or have a glass of wine or something. Like, a really big one. Because I was not directing anything at you. Ridiculous the conclusions people are coming to here.

Or you can keep getting as OUTRAGED!!! as you want reading into stuff that isn't there.

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FromScratchSF Posted 27 Jan 2012 , 11:59pm
post #111 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelleym

Ruuuuun, Forrest!




LOL.

jason_kraft Posted 28 Jan 2012 , 12:41am
post #112 of 146

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

FromScratch is arguing against a point that no one in this thread has taken.

LoveMeSomeCake615 Posted 28 Jan 2012 , 12:47am
post #113 of 146

I'm so confused. But I sincerely apologize if I have contributed to any "flame wars" or any such thing. I was just trying to respond to the OP's question about why mix bakers tend to get defensive about scratch baking. I wasn't trying to start an argument. TRULY, I REALLY wasn't. So I'm sorry if I did.

QTCakes1 Posted 28 Jan 2012 , 1:47am
post #114 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMeSomeCake615

I'm so confused. But I sincerely apologize if I have contributed to any "flame wars" or any such thing. I was just trying to respond to the OP's question about why mix bakers tend to get defensive about scratch baking. I wasn't trying to start an argument. TRULY, I REALLY wasn't. So I'm sorry if I did.




I got what you were trying to say and from what I got your bakery is like 95% scratch and I see the confusion they can get. I know bakeries that do all scratch and I know bakeries that do all base mix products, with "Bettercream" and sleeved filling, the whole processed sha-bang. The whole processed up bakery that says they bake from scratch is the one I have a problem with and I am pretty sure SF is refferring to. She isn't talking about the typical "Scratch vs. mix" debate, but about disclosure of what you are sellling. Yet those who bake from a mix are not addressing the disclosure aspect, but addressing the whole "Scratch vs. mix" debate. The only person, who I assume bakes from a mix, and that was Carmijok, said the bakery did not have to say if it was a mix or not, cause it's their business and their business secret. THAT is a load of crap. People need to address that! And yes, it is about intergrity, so people should have some and be honest about what they are selling.

gatorcake Posted 28 Jan 2012 , 2:09am
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[ icon_surprised.gif

Vista Posted 28 Jan 2012 , 2:15am
post #116 of 146

I too apologize. I took the statement about mix bakers personally, I shouldn't have. I know where I stand with my customers, who are still primarily friends and family and friends of family and friends. I did not mean to insinuate that any specific person lacks integrity, only that I value mine, and that ALL of us should, not just as business people, but as people in general.

jason_kraft Posted 28 Jan 2012 , 2:42am
post #117 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by QTCakes1

The only person, who I assume bakes from a mix, and that was Carmijok, said the bakery did not have to say if it was a mix or not, cause it's their business and their business secret.



She is correct that businesses do not have to divulge their proprietary recipes, but she also said "I just told them 'we do both scratch and mix baking depending on what the customer wants'--which was true." Doesn't sound like she's advocating lying to me, there's a difference between what businesses have to do and what they should do.

QTCakes1 Posted 28 Jan 2012 , 5:18pm
post #118 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by jason_kraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by QTCakes1

The only person, who I assume bakes from a mix, and that was Carmijok, said the bakery did not have to say if it was a mix or not, cause it's their business and their business secret.


She is correct that businesses do not have to divulge their proprietary recipes, but she also said "I just told them 'we do both scratch and mix baking depending on what the customer wants'--which was true." Doesn't sound like she's advocating lying to me, there's a difference between what businesses have to do and what they should do.




But like I said before, asking if you bake from scratch or a mix is NOT the same thing as asking for your recipe. And if you say it is, well I have no answer for that, cause that is just so silly. But really at this point, I think you are just saying whatever to keep things going, cause as you mentioned on other threads, you are here for the entertainment aspect. For some of us, we're not here to be entertained by each other, because this is what we love.

LoveMeSomeCake615 Posted 28 Jan 2012 , 5:45pm
post #119 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by QTCakes1

She isn't talking about the typical "Scratch vs. mix" debate, but about disclosure of what you are sellling. Yet those who bake from a mix are not addressing the disclosure aspect, but addressing the whole "Scratch vs. mix" debate.




I wasn't trying to start up the scratch v. mix debate again, but the OP asked a specific question about why mix bakers get defensive, and I felt like I could give some insight as to why. I'm sorry that my contribution put this thread "in the ditch" and started "flame wars", etc, etc. I didn't know answering a specific question that someone asked on the thread was against the rules. icon_rolleyes.gif

LoveMeSomeCake615 Posted 28 Jan 2012 , 5:57pm
post #120 of 146
Quote:
Originally Posted by FromScratchSF


BUT... If you don't and you are honest then you need to take a chill pill or have a glass of wine or something. Like, a really big one. Because I was not directing anything at you. Ridiculous the conclusions people are coming to here.

Or you can keep getting as OUTRAGED!!! as you want reading into stuff that isn't there.




I'm sorry if I assumed wrongly that something was directed at me. It's just hard to think otherwise when you quote part of my post along with the others and then proceed to call the whole group that you quoted an "obtuse box mix baker" that doesn't care about my customers. In saying that everyone loves our cake, I was not saying that everyone on the face of the earth would like our cake, I was relating my experience with those who have tasted our cake so far. By "everyone" I meant everyone of our acquaintance. I am not under some illusion that we can do no wrong or that there aren't some people who may not care for it. Nor was I saying that no one will ever ask us if we bake from scratch, just that it hasn't happened yet. And my "what's the big frickin deal" was directed at those who don't want to tell the truth about using mixes, as in what's the big deal, just tell them the truth.

Phew! Did I explain myself well enough this time???

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