How Much Do People Think A Cake Costs To Make???

Business By TPACakeGirl Updated 23 Jun 2016 , 1:30pm by indydebi

howsweet Posted 17 Nov 2013 , 3:02pm
post #361 of 434

AIf this is going to be a real business, then you'll have to toughen up a bit. You've made a good first step by realizing you won't be giving your secrets away. There's no magic thing to say in this situation that isn't going put off some people.

LesleyMoore Posted 17 Nov 2013 , 3:48pm
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Hi I' am just starting out from home and I have these worries myself. Here in the UK we have an app called 'Cost a Cake ' its about £4 & I wonder if that's the same as your 'Cakeboss' app. I did ask another business owner about pricing and she said only start off for a limited time at low price telling everyone your prices will rise after the first few orders.

paigetx Posted 17 Nov 2013 , 8:54pm
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Thank you all so much for the great advice and for the welcome. I will definitely apply it! It helps to see that what I'm thinking is validated and not me just being too sensitive. I do want to make it a real business, and I want my business to work. Additionally, I don't mind sharing things here on Cake Central because I know we all have very similar interests and I believe the dialog will help us all. :-) 

LTerry Posted 8 Dec 2013 , 7:43pm
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This is a problem I have had and still have with a couple of my family members, I did some cakes for free as "gifts" for weddings, birthday's etc., but now it seems like there is something every month going on where someone needs a cake.  I started asking them to pay for the ingredients but some are hesitant and when it is time I usually insist we go shopping for the ingredients together, they are shocked to find out the cost involved in ingredients, supplies and added decorative items.  I am doing one more for just ingredient cost and then shutting off the one's who continually ask and expect me to do it for cheap or free.  It is one thing to offer, but to have people expect it all the time is ridiculous, and it does take the fun out of doing cakes.  I also find that no one wants to pay what the cakes are worth.  I just did a fondant Winnie the pooh shower cake, 12 x 12, fondant pooh, bumble bees, pooh pot, ribbon and bow, I charged $75.00, the customer agreed hesitantly.  It took me probably 15 to 20 hours, so I really didn't make that much, people just don't understand how time consuming custom cakes are.

IAmPamCakes Posted 8 Dec 2013 , 7:58pm
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AI have had my boyfriend's family stop ordering from me because I kept charging more for each cake. The thing is, his sisters kept ordering bigger & bigger cakes, and when their parents (who were paying, because God forbid these girls pay a dime for anything, ever) saw the price, they had a fit. The girls didn't tell them that they were ordering huge cakes. Then, one sister asked about cake pops (I'm a member of the no-cake-pops-club), and I quoted her a pretty fair sum. She didn't like that price, so asked for a super tiny cake just for her daughter, she'd make cupcakes for everyone else. Again, I quoted her a fair price (large family discount included), and she didn't want to pay. She was used to the prices I had been giving them before I started really needing the money. I evened explained that, to make this a viable business, I needed to charge appropriately for my work. She was all about it, totally agreeing with me... Until I actually charged her more than a few bucks. So a friend made her a tiny cake, out of cheap ingredients, and looked like crap. But she got it for free, so I guess she was happy. And so was I, because I didn't have to slave away for pennies or someone who doesn't appreciate the work & effort.

howsweet Posted 8 Dec 2013 , 8:28pm
post #366 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTerry 
 

This is a problem I have had and still have with a couple of my family members, I did some cakes for free as "gifts" for weddings, birthday's etc., but now it seems like there is something every month going on where someone needs a cake.  I started asking them to pay for the ingredients but some are hesitant and when it is time I usually insist we go shopping for the ingredients together, they are shocked to find out the cost involved in ingredients, supplies and added decorative items.  I am doing one more for just ingredient cost and then shutting off the one's who continually ask and expect me to do it for cheap or free.  It is one thing to offer, but to have people expect it all the time is ridiculous, and it does take the fun out of doing cakes.  I also find that no one wants to pay what the cakes are worth.  I just did a fondant Winnie the pooh shower cake, 12 x 12, fondant pooh, bumble bees, pooh pot, ribbon and bow, I charged $75.00, the customer agreed hesitantly.  It took me probably 15 to 20 hours, so I really didn't make that much, people just don't understand how time consuming custom cakes are.


People don't understand because not enough bakers "teach" them. When anyone  sells a 15-20 hour cake for $75.00  they are teaching customers that cake is cheap. If everyone charged what they were worth, the word would spread that custom cakes are luxury items. Right now, the word out on the street about cake pricing is "don't buy it from one of those crazy price gougers, keep trying and you can find someone to do it for cheap".

LTerry Posted 8 Dec 2013 , 9:02pm
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I agree with you, that isn't enough for a 15 to 20 hour cake, but unfortunately where I live, you won't get more than that for a 12 x 12" cake. 

howsweet Posted 8 Dec 2013 , 10:23pm
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AHow do you know? Have you truly researched it or are you going by your personal experience? I don't mean that to sound mean or like some kind of challeng... I ask because ive seen posts by people who say the same thing and then have it turn out they serve the same area as I serve. And I rarely sell a cake for less than about $7-8 per serving.

kbunn170 Posted 8 Dec 2013 , 10:58pm
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I am new to cake decorating and to Cake Central. I am considering baking cakes as a side business. The Lego cake in the picture took me over 9 hours to complete. It is not as smooth as I would normally have it but I really underestimated how long this cake would take to make. I worked on it one night and I was up until 2 am. I also underestimated how much to charge. This cake is a 9 inch white almond sour cream, butter cream frosted and fondant covered, molded Lego blocks and other details as well. The lady I made it for paid $45 dollars, and purchased her own Lego cement mixer as well as the toys for the topper. I made everything else. First question: What would a cake like this really cost if I had charged correctly? Second question: do you think I am have enough talent to start a small side business and charge the prices you are all talking about?

LoveMeSomeCake615 Posted 8 Dec 2013 , 11:31pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbunn170 
 

I am new to cake decorating and to Cake Central. I am considering baking cakes as a side business. The Lego cake in the picture took me over 9 hours to complete. It is not as smooth as I would normally have it but I really underestimated how long this cake would take to make. I worked on it one night and I was up until 2 am. I also underestimated how much to charge. This cake is a 9 inch white almond sour cream, butter cream frosted and fondant covered, molded Lego blocks and other details as well. The lady I made it for paid $45 dollars, and purchased her own Lego cement mixer as well as the toys for the topper. I made everything else. First question: What would a cake like this really cost if I had charged correctly? Second question: do you think I am have enough talent to start a small side business and charge the prices you are all talking about?

Well, if it took you 9 hours to make, and you charge $10 an hour for labor (Not sure if that's what you need to charge for labor, just an example) that's $90. That's just labor. Then you would need to figure out your materials cost, overhead and profit and add those numbers to the $90 for labor. We've done those lego cakes. They're a pain in the butt. 

 

As far as ability, it looks like you definitely have the basic skills down! It's hard to say for sure without seeing a few different examples of your work, but this one is well done. It just depends on how well you are able to execute smooth buttercream, fondant, clean lines and decorating, etc. 

howsweet Posted 9 Dec 2013 , 1:02am
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That's 9 hours that includes shopping time, time spent talking to the customer, running her card (or however you do payment), taking the photos, cleaning up and packing it up to go? And I've probably left something out...

 

I would quote that out at $300 and then offer other options to let them know just what else they could get for that price.  Some cake designs just aren't very practical for what you get.  Because when you think of the alternative designs you could make for that amount, most people would choose the showier cake.

LTerry Posted 9 Dec 2013 , 2:25pm
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I don't think you are being mean, but yes I have researched my area and what is driving the low prices around here are the people who are selling their cakes cheap. And that is cheaper than my pricing.   I honestly have calculated my costs and time and can not afford to do cakes for what they are charging.  I live in Southwest Iowa in a rural community, most people are charging $2.00 per person (or cake slice), some other's figure their price by doubling their ingredients.  I have had so many people who don't even want to pay that for a cake, and of course I don't end up making cakes for them.

This is an example, last night I received a phone call from someone asking me to make a simple birthday cake for next weekend.  Although, that is a little short notice I thought I could fit it in, so I proceeded to ask what size, kind etc., once she started talking she was adding more detail, fondant decorations etc.  She wanted a square cake, again it ending up being my 12 x 12 which is enough to feed 30 to 40 guests.  And you should know, this is my future in law, my son is marrying her daughter, so it is a sticky situation.  She told me she didn't want anything extravagant, and she wanted to keep the cost down.  I told her my normal charge for the 12 x 12 cake with buttercream and fondant, $75.00, the phone line went quiet, and then she gasped and said wow!!!, that is a lot!  So she said what if we scratch the fondant and just go with a white buttercream with piping and a simple Happy Birthday.  So, being that she is my future daughter-in-laws mother I told her I could do it for $40 to $50 depending on which cake recipe she wanted to go with.  That was merely doubling my ingredients.  She thought that was still a lot of money, so I suggested (nicely) that she may want to get a cake from Wal Mart or Hy-Vee, she said "yuck!"  I was kind of at a loss for words, lol!  But, I ended up just suggesting that maybe she would be better off making a cake herself, trying to be ever so polite.  She finally agreed after saying she didn't want to offend me and saying that she does have a buttercream recipe! 

liz at sugar Posted 9 Dec 2013 , 2:32pm
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LTerry - I live in the other corner of the state (southeast Iowa) and I agree that we do live in regions where there are more poor/lower middle class customers.  But, you shouldn't be making fondant cakes for those customers!  If they want the world, they have to pay for it!  You should figure out the quickest styles to make out of buttercream for your clients, and price them so you still make a decent hourly wage and profit, and you were right to suggest Walmart if they can't afford your cake.

 

Fancy cake isn't one of the rights the founding fathers promised our citizens - it is a luxury item, and should be priced as such.

 

Liz

kikiandkyle Posted 9 Dec 2013 , 6:19pm
post #374 of 434

AIf you have a Wal-Mart budget you need to buy your cake at Wal-Mart.

People are not entitled to get these custom cakes for a bargain price. If there are no customers in your area for a cake made at minimum wage (and really, who thinks they should only get minimum wage for the kind of skill that goes into these cakes), then custom cake is not the business for you.

Wal-Mart should not be your competition, and neither are the bakers who will pay people to take their cakes. Wal-Mart doesn't even make a profit on their cakes and they are made with cheap junk in factories.

embersmom Posted 12 Dec 2013 , 11:54am
post #375 of 434

Quote:

Originally Posted by kikiandkyle 

If you have a Wal-Mart budget you need to buy your cake at Wal-Mart.

People are not entitled to get these custom cakes for a bargain price. If there are no customers in your area for a cake made at minimum wage (and really, who thinks they should only get minimum wage for the kind of skill that goes into these cakes), then custom cake is not the business for you.

Wal-Mart should not be your competition, and neither are the bakers who will pay people to take their cakes. Wal-Mart doesn't even make a profit on their cakes and they are made with cheap junk in factories.


Conversely, we tend to get customers who can well afford a custom cake but they don't want to pay for it.  We get phone calls and inquiries all the time at work about it.  The other day I turned down a woman who wanted a 3D Barbie cake because, as I said to her, no supermarket in the area makes those kind of cakes because it's too labor intensive, but I'm pretty sure [name of nearest retail bakery] or [next closest retail bakery] makes them.  She gave me such an incredulous look I almost laughed out loud.

kikiandkyle Posted 12 Dec 2013 , 2:41pm
post #376 of 434

AI guess 'afford' and 'want to spend' kind of fall into the same category in this instance. I used to live in a very wealthy area but every party would have a Costco cake, even the ones where the kids lived in mansions. They got that money somehow right!

flours4u Posted 27 Dec 2013 , 7:55am
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Hi- just curious! How did the cake come out?  I know its been a couple years, but I just read it.  ;)

Lizzybug78 Posted 12 Jan 2014 , 12:03pm
post #378 of 434

AHi all :)

I'm new to CC, having lurked for quite a while, but I've been decorating for about 20 years, having started by jumping in at the deep end when I was 15 by doing my sister's 3 tier royal iced wedding cake.

I've always hobby baked for friends and family who knew the time and effort involved but would never do anything for strangers due to no insurance etc. The only exceptions being gift cakes for teachers (which is now getting me proper orders :))

I've been professionally decorating now for some years, but a Facebook message today made me come on here to see if I was mental with my pricing!

I had a request for a 3 tier black and white wedding cake with a large cascade of black and white anemones, hydrangea blossoms and fantasy flowers running the full length of the cake, and each tier was to have diamanté banding (real glass, not mesh). This was to feed around 80.

I went through my quote and worked out the ingredients/materials alone were significantly over £100. Adding on all other working costs, then labour, then profit, I came to £470. Bearing in mind I conservatively estimated the flowers alone would take about 14 hours work!

I had a message back this morning to say I was 'massively overpriced' and that she'd ordered her cake at a cost of £150. I just cannot believe this is a real price!

I will only use top quality ingredients which would add a few quid, but honestly! I was so irritated that I worked out the cost of making this with Tesco value products (that's dirt cheap for those of you not in the UK:)), cheap and nasty fondant, diamanté effect mesh and ready made sugar flowers (not what she wanted as they aren't available, just cr***y looking roses) from eBay. Not including any work time at all, this was still over £110, although obviously you can knock the flower making time off.

I was soooo annoyed at her choice of wording that I wrote back explaining that this cost rang a massive warning bell with me, something I never normally do as I know if they buy cheap they'll get cheap.

I knew it wasn't overpriced as I have a similar cake booked in for later this year at a similar price, but she rocked my confidence till I read through these posts!

I am finding more and more that if I get an enquiry through Facebook I will not get that booking, and they'll be rude about the cost. I don't know what is like where any of you are, but in my area it appears that people going through fb are expecting car boot sale prices. Like the lady I had enquire about an 18" fully sculpted car cake, but when I told her the cost said she was expecting it to be about £30 (very clearly fishing for a reduction). I just wished her luck on finding it at that price.

I used to be embarrassed about asking for proper money as it was 'just something I love doing'. Now I still get that pang - until I work out the costs to me, at which point I get much less shy.

Sorry for the rambly post, I was just caught off guard with her response and needed to rant. It always irks me that people are rude when they reply, but really that was one of the most rude comments I've had.

We've all had quotes for things that were more than we expected, but do you turn round to your plumber etc and say 'you're massively overpriced ?' No, you politely say you can't quite manage it at the moment, thanks for your time though. Anything else is just implying that their time and expertise is worth diddly squat!

Rant over :)

Liz x

Godot Posted 12 Jan 2014 , 12:11pm
post #379 of 434

APeople!

costumeczar Posted 12 Jan 2014 , 1:33pm
post #380 of 434

ALizzybug78, whoever wrote to you and told you that is a rude cow, and she deserves what she gets for that price. Wait, are you sure it wasn't my sister in law? ;)

howsweet Posted 12 Jan 2014 , 7:50pm
post #381 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTerry 
 

I don't think you are being mean, but yes I have researched my area and what is driving the low prices around here are the people who are selling their cakes cheap. And that is cheaper than my pricing.   I honestly have calculated my costs and time and can not afford to do cakes for what they are charging.  I live in Southwest Iowa in a rural community, most people are charging $2.00 per person (or cake slice), some other's figure their price by doubling their ingredients.  I have had so many people who don't even want to pay that for a cake, and of course I don't end up making cakes for them.

This is an example, last night I received a phone call from someone asking me to make a simple birthday cake for next weekend.  Although, that is a little short notice I thought I could fit it in, so I proceeded to ask what size, kind etc., once she started talking she was adding more detail, fondant decorations etc.  She wanted a square cake, again it ending up being my 12 x 12 which is enough to feed 30 to 40 guests.  And you should know, this is my future in law, my son is marrying her daughter, so it is a sticky situation.  She told me she didn't want anything extravagant, and she wanted to keep the cost down.  I told her my normal charge for the 12 x 12 cake with buttercream and fondant, $75.00, the phone line went quiet, and then she gasped and said wow!!!, that is a lot!  So she said what if we scratch the fondant and just go with a white buttercream with piping and a simple Happy Birthday.  So, being that she is my future daughter-in-laws mother I told her I could do it for $40 to $50 depending on which cake recipe she wanted to go with.  That was merely doubling my ingredients.  She thought that was still a lot of money, so I suggested (nicely) that she may want to get a cake from Wal Mart or Hy-Vee, she said "yuck!"  I was kind of at a loss for words, lol!  But, I ended up just suggesting that maybe she would be better off making a cake herself, trying to be ever so polite.  She finally agreed after saying she didn't want to offend me and saying that she does have a buttercream recipe! 

Generally best to just gift cakes to relatives. I had a lady actually start yelling at me and chewing me out on the phone for my prices. Most people most of us know cannot afford our cakes and don't understand paying high prices for something that's just going to get eaten. The people who can afford your cake are the ones who don't flinch at paying $600 for a pair of shoes.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzybug78 

Hi all icon_smile.gif

I'm new to CC, having lurked for quite a while, but I've been decorating for about 20 years, having started by jumping in at the deep end when I was 15 by doing my sister's 3 tier royal iced wedding cake.

I've always hobby baked for friends and family who knew the time and effort involved but would never do anything for strangers due to no insurance etc. The only exceptions being gift cakes for teachers (which is now getting me proper orders icon_smile.gif)

I've been professionally decorating now for some years, but a Facebook message today made me come on here to see if I was mental with my pricing!

I had a request for a 3 tier black and white wedding cake with a large cascade of black and white anemones, hydrangea blossoms and fantasy flowers running the full length of the cake, and each tier was to have diamanté banding (real glass, not mesh). This was to feed around 80.

I went through my quote and worked out the ingredients/materials alone were significantly over £100. Adding on all other working costs, then labour, then profit, I came to £470. Bearing in mind I conservatively estimated the flowers alone would take about 14 hours work!

I had a message back this morning to say I was 'massively overpriced' and that she'd ordered her cake at a cost of £150. I just cannot believe this is a real price!

I will only use top quality ingredients which would add a few quid, but honestly! I was so irritated that I worked out the cost of making this with Tesco value products (that's dirt cheap for those of you not in the UK:)), cheap and nasty fondant, diamanté effect mesh and ready made sugar flowers (not what she wanted as they aren't available, just cr***y looking roses) from eBay. Not including any work time at all, this was still over £110, although obviously you can knock the flower making time off.

I was soooo annoyed at her choice of wording that I wrote back explaining that this cost rang a massive warning bell with me, something I never normally do as I know if they buy cheap they'll get cheap.

I knew it wasn't overpriced as I have a similar cake booked in for later this year at a similar price, but she rocked my confidence till I read through these posts!

I am finding more and more that if I get an enquiry through Facebook I will not get that booking, and they'll be rude about the cost. I don't know what is like where any of you are, but in my area it appears that people going through fb are expecting car boot sale prices. Like the lady I had enquire about an 18" fully sculpted car cake, but when I told her the cost said she was expecting it to be about £30 (very clearly fishing for a reduction). I just wished her luck on finding it at that price.

I used to be embarrassed about asking for proper money as it was 'just something I love doing'. Now I still get that pang - until I work out the costs to me, at which point I get much less shy.

Sorry for the rambly post, I was just caught off guard with her response and needed to rant. It always irks me that people are rude when they reply, but really that was one of the most rude comments I've had.

We've all had quotes for things that were more than we expected, but do you turn round to your plumber etc and say 'you're massively overpriced ?' No, you politely say you can't quite manage it at the moment, thanks for your time though. Anything else is just implying that their time and expertise is worth diddly squat!

Rant over icon_smile.gif

Liz x

Her choice of wording.. which I assume was to let you know she thought you were trying to take advantage of her.  Whenever that happens to me, three things occur:

 

1) I get a twinge of anger at the unknown baker who is teaching this customer that I'm price gouging

2) I have a little satisfaction knowing how hard this idiot is working for no money

3) I hope that the cake turns as bad as it should for the money.

 

I know I'm going to hell for all that!! :lol:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by costumeczar 

Lizzybug78, whoever wrote to you and told you that is a rude cow, and she deserves what she gets for that price. Wait, are you sure it wasn't my sister in law? icon_wink.gif

What drives me crazy is sometimes she gets a very nice cake.

-K8memphis Posted 12 Jan 2014 , 7:56pm
post #382 of 434

Quote:

Originally Posted by howsweet 
 
 

...Her choice of wording.. which I assume was to let you know she thought you were trying to take advantage of her.  Whenever that happens to me, three things occur:

 

1) I get a twinge of anger at the unknown baker who is teaching this customer that I'm price gouging

2) I have a little satisfaction knowing how hard this idiot is working for no money

3) I hope that the cake turns as bad as it should for the money.

 

I know I'm going to hell for all that!! :lol:

 

 

 

hahahaha

Phaedramax Posted 12 Jan 2014 , 8:49pm
post #383 of 434

I agree I think the T.V.shows, Bridal magazine should list if not the exact price but a ball part price so these people ( customers ) would have some idea before they ask and take up you time.The smallest 3 tier75 ser here goes for $4.50 + per ser. Yes per seving. plus delivery and set up fee.That's basic.

Lizzybug78 Posted 13 Jan 2014 , 12:44am
post #384 of 434

AThanks all for making me feel better. Yes she was definitely a rude cow :-) I may have dodged a bullet anyway as I spoke to a friend who knows of this woman and apparently she's renowned for being unreliable and not paying for things she orders!

@Howsweet- your point #3; Not that I'm hoping for it at all of course (ahem) , but I've not seen cakewrecks' 'what they asked for and what they got' posts in a while, and this one is a prime candidate ;-)

MBalaska Posted 13 Jan 2014 , 1:02am
post #385 of 434

Quote:

Originally Posted by howsweet 

 

Her choice of wording.. which I assume was to let you know she thought you were trying to take advantage of her.  Whenever that happens to me, three things occur:

 

1) I get a twinge of anger at the unknown baker who is teaching this customer that I'm price gouging

2) I have a little satisfaction knowing how hard this idiot is working for no money

3) I hope that the cake turns as bad as it should for the money.

 

I know I'm going to hell for all that!! :lol:

 

Never fear, as you'll never be alone when you get there, in fact you'll be among other decorators who feel the same. 

 

as everyone knows,( because of TV), Duff and Buddy and all their friends working in the shop all make minimum wage because they sell their cakes for pennies.   no worries.

MBalaska Posted 19 Jan 2014 , 11:49pm
post #386 of 434

here's what a Post Office employee thinks.  It's expensive in Alaska.  I picked up a package from the post office yesterday and the employee said that they were shocked at the prices here compared to the south.  He had a person who would make chocolate lollypops for him for (back home) for about $.30 cents a piece.  When he asked a candy maker here in town the price was $1.00 a piece.  He me asked if that was fair.

 

I said well considering that in your old town you could buy a pound of good $5.oo chocolate by simply driving over to the store.  And here I may have to ship it at the cost of $10.oo a pound.  that triples the price, so YES tripling the price of the lolly's sounds reasonable.  Chalk one up for supporting the local candymaker, who ever they are.

 

I didn't think about it until later, but perhaps he thought that I'd undercut the price and make them for less, but no - no I did not and I'm content.

sassyjssweets Posted 20 Jan 2014 , 5:57pm
post #387 of 434

A

Original message sent by cookiemama2

[quote="ginger001"]I too, have given people cakes at a ridiculously cheap price. I spend somewhere around 20 hours on a cake, then to have someone hand you 20 or 30.00 is an absolute insult.

And they think they are a hero giving you that!

sassyjssweets Posted 20 Jan 2014 , 6:00pm
post #388 of 434

AI am just getting started on all if this myself. I actually doubt my work even though other people rave about it. I KNOW I'm not there yet. I have the cake boss software also, although I'm still figuring that all out, too. Its tough when it comes to pricing cakes. If I truly charged $10/hr, the cake would be $200 before costs!! Lol .. pricing is tough.

howsweet Posted 20 Jan 2014 , 8:22pm
post #389 of 434
Quote:
Originally Posted by sassyjssweets 

 If I truly charged $10/hr, the cake would be $200 before costs!! Lol .. pricing is tough.


Exactly. So if you can't wrap your brain around charging that much for a cake, it just means you can't afford a cake for that price. LOTS of people can't. In fact most people wouldn't dream of spending that amount on a cake. Just like you probably wouldn't spend $700 on a pair of shoes. But the people who do are your customers.

 

This is really meant as a joke, but most of us would be better off hanging around the front of a high end shoe store handing out cards than spreading the word through our friends and family.

jo3d33 Posted 5 Mar 2014 , 1:12am
post #390 of 434

Quote:

 

I really think it would be great if the "Cake shows" would actually list the prices of their work much like they do on Fabulous Cakes.

EXACTLY!!!!

 
I couldn't agree more. Another one I hate is the emails/calls that say I only need a cake for 10 people but I would like a 3 tier cake with blah blah blah.....ugh. Really??

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