I started it, let's talk about it...

Business By NikiH Updated 7 Apr 2013 , 1:30am by AnnieCahill

torysgirl87 Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 9:14pm
post #121 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by -K8memphis

Her county does not approve her having a business the way she had first been told. They are ok with a few hobby cakes.

It's really hard for some people to understand that a few cakes for friends and family that you get paid for is not going to blow up the phones at the Pentagon or something. Swat teams are not surrounding the houses of those who bake thusly.

It is ok. It is ok with the officials. We can get paid for baking like this, a little baking. Not a business. One cake two cake three cakes is not a business.

Taking money for a cake does not institute a business in many locales.


thumbs_up.gif

jason_kraft Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 9:20pm
post #122 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by -K8memphis

It is ok. It is ok with the officials. We can get paid for baking like this, a little baking. Not a business. One cake two cake three cakes is not a business.



That's not how laws work...either someone is licensed as a business and can operate commercially (i.e. selling goods and services) or they aren't. If they're not licensed according to the rules of the state/county/municipality, they can't legally sell items commercially.

But while there is no gray area in the letter of the law, the spirit of the law and how each govt entity enforces the law varies widely. I have heard several cases where (for example) the county will let an unlicensed business slide as long as it stays small...but good luck getting that in writing.

If you live in one of those areas, I see nothing wrong in taking advantage of the situation, as long as you are aware that the rules can change at any time and are willing to either abandon your business or start on the road to legality if things change or you start attracting attention outside your circle of friends and family.

geri4292adams Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 9:23pm
post #123 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonkraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by geri4292adams

What if you open a party planning service. All the sevices that you offer have a cake included. So technically, you're not selling your cakes, you're selling your party planning services. It just so happens to havea cake included in that package that the bride/customer wants. It's one way around it....right!


Correct, as long as the cake was made in a licensed and inspected facility (for example, if you bought the cake from a real bakery pre-decorated and brought it to the venue).

If you are still making/decorating the cake at home, and your state does not allow this, it's still illegal. In fact, it's worse if you try to get around it with clever tricks, because that shows that you knew what you were doing was wrong and you were trying to circumvent the law (could be interpreted as fraud).




I say this because I have a few of my cake buddies that from time to time make cakes for a lady that runs a party planning service. The customer calls her and tells her what they would like she then in turn goes to the bakers that she uses and asks them to give her a cake quote. When the quotes are given, she contacts the customer and she says what she can do about the cake and all that.

I am a WMI for hobby Lobby and have had a ton of people come in and ask me to make their cakes for them and even though I hate to turn them down I do. It sucks and I know that I could be making a pretty good living at it, but I myself don't want to get into trouble.

torysgirl87 Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 9:29pm
post #124 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonkraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by -K8memphis

It is ok. It is ok with the officials. We can get paid for baking like this, a little baking. Not a business. One cake two cake three cakes is not a business.


That's not how laws work...either someone is licensed as a business and can operate commercially (i.e. selling goods and services) or they aren't. If they're not licensed according to the rules of the state/county/municipality, they can't legally sell items commercially.

But while there is no gray area in the letter of the law, the spirit of the law and how each govt entity enforces the law varies widely. I have heard several cases where (for example) the county will let an unlicensed business slide as long as it stays small...but good luck getting that in writing.

If you live in one of those areas, I see nothing wrong in taking advantage of the situation, as long as you are aware that the rules can change at any time and are willing to either abandon your business or start on the road to legality if things change or you start attracting attention outside your circle of friends and family.




When DoA left my home, the docmentation stated that I could continue to pursue baking as a hobby until I was ready to return to them with a license from my county.

When I went to a zoning meeting with my county and they declined my appeal request to let me have the bakery at home/on my property, documentation reflected that it was allowable to prusue as "hobby only".

I think at this point, you should watch that foot that keeps going in your mouth. Every situation is different. By now, this should be clear to you.

CakeDiva101 Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 9:32pm
post #125 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by -K8memphis

Her county does not approve her having a business the way she had first been told. They are ok with a few hobby cakes.

It's really hard for some people to understand that a few cakes for friends and family that you get paid for is not going to blow up the phones at the Pentagon or something. Swat teams are not surrounding the houses of those who bake thusly.

It is ok. It is ok with the officials. We can get paid for baking like this, a little baking. Not a business. One cake two cake three cakes is not a business.

Taking money for a cake does not institute a business in many locales.





Thank you! somebody finally put it right! A few cakes here and there is not a business. Well said! thumbs_up.gif

jason_kraft Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 9:36pm
post #126 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by torysgirl87

When DoA left my home, the docmentation stated that I could continue to pursue baking as a hobby until I was ready to return to them with a license from my county.

When I went to a zoning meeting with my county and they declined my appeal request to let me have the bakery at home/on my property, documentation reflected that it was allowable to prusue as "hobby only".



That's interesting, thanks for filling in the details...the story makes more sense now. I can see why you are being careful about your baking activities though, as there is a fine line between "hobby" and "business", and the DoA's definitions might not match up with what the IRS thinks.

jason_kraft Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 9:41pm
post #127 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by CakeDiva101

A few cakes here and there is not a business.



That's a dangerous statement...in some areas, accepting compensation for a single cake is enough to constitute a business and trigger local food safety licensing rules. It depends on how lenient your local authorities are in terms of enforcement (and of course if the govt finds out in the first place).

Annabakescakes Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 9:44pm
post #128 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonkraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by -K8memphis

It is ok. It is ok with the officials. We can get paid for baking like this, a little baking. Not a business. One cake two cake three cakes is not a business.


That's not how laws work...either someone is licensed as a business and can operate commercially (i.e. selling goods and services) or they aren't. If they're not licensed according to the rules of the state/county/municipality, they can't legally sell items commercially.

But while there is no gray area in the letter of the law, the spirit of the law and how each govt entity enforces the law varies widely. I have heard several cases where (for example) the county will let an unlicensed business slide as long as it stays small...but good luck getting that in writing.

If you live in one of those areas, I see nothing wrong in taking advantage of the situation, as long as you are aware that the rules can change at any time and are willing to either abandon your business or start on the road to legality if things change or you start attracting attention outside your circle of friends and family.




Actually, there are tons of gray areas in the laws, that is why politicians can get by with out paying their taxes and still advice the President and write the tax code. And politicians can have homes in other countries that have income that they forget to report, and they can still walk as free men! Loopholes are INTENTIONAL, so the ruling class elite can get by with things we little people get locked up for! I say Praise be to God that this woman has found a loophole, and that she is using it,and I really wish that "people" would give it a freaking rest!
There are "those" on here that have joined in the last year that have commented 5 times more than others who have been on this site for years, and the BULK of their comments are argumentative know-it-all, legalistic blather about "illegal caking" and "proving" points until they run them into the ground, and people want to stab their own eyes out from reading his or her posts! Give it a rest!

jason_kraft Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 9:46pm
post #129 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by torysgirl87

It matches up fine.



I'm curious, what is the official legal definition of a "hobby" (as opposed to a business) from the GA DoA? Depending on how generous the definition is, this might be another way to get tacit approval for low-volume home bakeries in states that do not allow full-fledged businesses.

kelleym Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 9:47pm
post #130 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonkraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by CakeDiva101

A few cakes here and there is not a business.


That's a dangerous statement...in some areas, accepting compensation for a single cake is enough to constitute a business and trigger local food safety licensing rules. It depends on how lenient your local authorities are in terms of enforcement (and of course if the govt finds out in the first place).



Where? Please cite one place where accepting compensation for ONE SINGLE CAKE cake triggers local food safety licensing rules. Please include a link and a person's name and phone number.

jason_kraft Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 9:49pm
post #131 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annabakescakes

Actually, there are tons of gray areas in the laws, that is why politicians can get by with out paying their taxes and still advice the President and write the tax code. And politicians can have homes in other countries that have income that they forget to report, and they can still walk as free men!



Those are not gray areas, your examples are all violations of US law. As with this thread, the big issue is whether or not those violations are prosecuted.


Quote:
Quote:

people want to stab their own eyes out from reading his or her posts! Give it a rest!



No one's forcing you to read my posts, it's a free country. icon_wink.gif

-K8memphis Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 9:51pm
post #132 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annabakescakes

Quote:
Originally Posted by -K8memphis

Her county does not approve her having a business the way she had first been told. They are ok with a few hobby cakes.

It's really hard for some people to understand that a few cakes for friends and family that you get paid for is not going to blow up the phones at the Pentagon or something. Swat teams are not surrounding the houses of those who bake thusly.

It is ok. It is ok with the officials. We can get paid for baking like this, a little baking. Not a business. One cake two cake three cakes is not a business.

Taking money for a cake does not institute a business in many locales.



I totally "get" your frustration here! Thanks for wording it better than I could have! I just have to say "DITTO, for the love of all things HOLY, FREAKING DITTO!!"




Oh I'm so surprised--thanks!

torysgirl87 Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 9:52pm
post #133 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonkraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by torysgirl87

It matches up fine.


I'm curious, what is the official legal definition of a "hobby" (as opposed to a business) from the GA DoA? Depending on how generous the definition is, this might be another way to get tacit approval for low-volume home bakeries in states that do not allow full-fledged businesses.




I will not indulge your ignorance any longer. The State of Georgia does allow for home bakeries, 'full-fledged businesses', etc. You may contact the GA State Dept of Agriculture just as I did to become a more informed citizen.

jason_kraft Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 9:53pm
post #134 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelleym

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonkraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by CakeDiva101

A few cakes here and there is not a business.


That's a dangerous statement...in some areas, accepting compensation for a single cake is enough to constitute a business and trigger local food safety licensing rules. It depends on how lenient your local authorities are in terms of enforcement (and of course if the govt finds out in the first place).


Where? Please cite one place where accepting compensation for ONE SINGLE CAKE cake triggers local food safety licensing rules. Please include a link and a person's name and phone number.



In my county (Santa Clara, CA) I asked the dept of env. health if I could sell cakes from home. They said that if I wanted to sell anything (even for cost) I would need an inspected kitchen.

http://www.sccgov.org/portal/site/deh
(40icon_cool.gif 918-3400

You're completely missing my other main point, which is that this rule is not enforced in some areas, and in many cases the govt wouldn't even know you were selling. Obviously if your friend gives you $20 for a cake once a year the county will not send a SWAT team after you, but according to the letter of the law in many areas that is a commercial transaction. Knowledge of the law is never a bad thing, it helps you make informed decisions and judge risk.

jason_kraft Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 9:58pm
post #135 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by torysgirl87

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonkraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by torysgirl87

It matches up fine.


I'm curious, what is the official legal definition of a "hobby" (as opposed to a business) from the GA DoA? Depending on how generous the definition is, this might be another way to get tacit approval for low-volume home bakeries in states that do not allow full-fledged businesses.



The State of Georgia does allow for home bakeries, 'full-fledged businesses', etc. You may contact the GA State Dept of Agriculture just as I did to become a more informed citizen.



I wasn't specifically referring to GA...in CA the state does not allow commercial home bakeries, so this loophole could potentially be applied there. The official definition of "hobby" from the GA DoA would be useful...unless you don't actually have an official definition from the state?

-K8memphis Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 10:05pm
post #136 of 183

I think that this thread is a great example of how conflicting this is for all of us all the time as a group. We are all mere mortals hashing this out, going 'round and 'round -- so too are the people slicing and dicing the rules & regulations. Some of them are legalistic, no grey area goes unprocessed, some of them let the non-essentials go.

There's an old saying, "the only law is the law of public opinion."

jason_kraft Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 10:10pm
post #137 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by -K8memphis

I think that this thread is a great example of how conflicting this is for all of us all the time as a group. We are all mere mortals hashing this out, going 'round and 'round -- so too are the people slicing and dicing the rules & regulations. Some of them are legalistic, no grey area goes unprocessed, some of them let the non-essentials go.



That's for sure. Things would be much easier if there was some kind of cottage food law at the federal level that would take precedence over the mishmash of state, county, and municipal regulations and specifically allow home businesses up to a certain income level with a base level of food safety inspections from the FDA.

-K8memphis Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 10:19pm
post #138 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonkraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by -K8memphis

I think that this thread is a great example of how conflicting this is for all of us all the time as a group. We are all mere mortals hashing this out, going 'round and 'round -- so too are the people slicing and dicing the rules & regulations. Some of them are legalistic, no grey area goes unprocessed, some of them let the non-essentials go.


That's for sure. Things would be much easier if there was some kind of cottage food law at the federal level that would take precedence over the mishmash of state, county, and municipal regulations and specifically allow home businesses up to a certain income level with a base level of food safety inspections from the FDA.




But another law ain't gonna fix that. That's all at the state and local levels where it should be. Washington can't handle Washington much less what happens in kitchens across the land.

Annabakescakes Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 11:06pm
post #139 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by -K8memphis

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonkraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by -K8memphis

I think that this thread is a great example of how conflicting this is for all of us all the time as a group. We are all mere mortals hashing this out, going 'round and 'round -- so too are the people slicing and dicing the rules & regulations. Some of them are legalistic, no grey area goes unprocessed, some of them let the non-essentials go.


That's for sure. Things would be much easier if there was some kind of cottage food law at the federal level that would take precedence over the mishmash of state, county, and municipal regulations and specifically allow home businesses up to a certain income level with a base level of food safety inspections from the FDA.



But another law ain't gonna fix that. That's all at the state and local levels where it should be. Washington can't handle Washington much less what happens in kitchens across the land.




Though it pains me to do so, I must agree with you yet again. I wonder why you can be so rude to me when when think so much alike? thumbs_up.gifthumbs_up.gifthumbs_up.gif

bakingpw Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 11:08pm
post #140 of 183

Though it seems at this point, while there are many responses, the arguments are really just between a few going back and forth - so what the heck, I want to throw in a bit of info myself.

I had a legal, Retail bakery in the center of town (6 years) which I closed last year due to partner issues, economy and health. So...I heard that getting a separate kitchen from the one you use for family, can be licensed by BoA in our county. I thought "WOW our county allows it, Great! I'll make the garage into a kitchen. Sounded like a good plan, until BOH informed me "Nope, not in your town in this county". It seems there is an order for approvals: Federal, State, County and then local Town. While it is federally ok, State says it's ok, even allowed in my county - not in my town. Next town over there are people with those BoA approvals.

I had all my customers begging me to bake "just for them" out of my home. But, you know what, there is another retail bakery in my town. I just wouldn't do it. So, I have all kinds of bakery equipment, a Culinary degree, 25+ years of baking production experience, and I am NOT baking.

No judgement - just saying'.

-K8memphis Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 11:11pm
post #141 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Annabakescakes



Though it pains me to do so, I must agree with you yet again. I wonder why you can be so rude to me when when think so much alike? thumbs_up.gifthumbs_up.gifthumbs_up.gif




I am not rude to you, Munchkin.

Kitagrl Posted 10 Dec 2010 , 11:33pm
post #142 of 183

Oh sheeze.....

3GCakes Posted 11 Dec 2010 , 12:07am
post #143 of 183

Wanna know something funny?

I was a WMI for two years, here in Cincinnati, and heard all kinds of stories from my students who "sell cheesecakes and want to decorate them" and who "bake for people at the office and want to up their decorating skills."

I wouldn't really say anything, but in the back of mind I could hear Beavis and Butthead singing "Breakin' the law! Breakin' the law!"

Dummy me--little did I realize that it's all perfectly legal in little ol Ohio, either with a license or with a pretty simple 10 bucks and no carpet or pets in the kitchen.

Conversely, many of the laws in a place have a threshold. Will you be given a speeding ticket for driving 56 in a 55 zone? Prolly not. And that is the "spirit" in which laws are enforced. The letter may be broken, but the spirit knows there is little difference between 55 and 56. Someone MAY be pulled over at 58MPH, and may be turned in at 4 cakes a month but not 3. Is there a line? Sure, it's at the letter. But the spirit of the law allows the letter to stretch in the best interest of society in general, I think, yet keeps a line for when things get out of hand. And I thank God for that, because it seems like the gray area that keeps us from hurting each other, yet still allows us to help each other and keeps us from becoming a police state.

KathysCC Posted 11 Dec 2010 , 2:27am
post #144 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitagrl

There's law...but frankly...its no business of a CC member in Louisiana (just pulled that out of a hat, no reference to anyone here) to tell a CC member in, say, Idaho, that they should not ask questions on CC about selling cake until they are licensed.

Let the person mind their own business. Let them decide if they are going to follow the law or not. Let them face the results of whatever they choose.

Just answer their stupid cake question and go back to your legal caking...ya know? Really....

My main issue is not that its okay to be illegal but that I get tired of the busybodies who like to start debates in threads about whether the OP is being a bad little girl or a good little girl.

I mean...that would be like...if I get on here and say "I have a problem...I was delivering a cake....and I got to the venue and I realized that I had left the gumpaste flowers at home...what should I do?" And someone to get on and say "I'm not sure, I have no experience with that, but were you speeding on your way to the venue or on the way home? Because if you were, you're a lawbreaker, and you're lucky the caterer doesn't turn your license number into the police."

I mean really...let the person speed, and let them get pulled over....let the baker be illegal, and let them get caught....but I think each of us have enough problems with family and illness and money and decorating to keep our own selves busy in our own lives without pointing fingers at somebody else's.

There are a TON of informative threads on this site about being legal...there is a huge thread on what states are legal....its very easy for a baker to find out what's right to do. Can we just let it rest at that?????

And if you are worried about local "illegals"....sheesh... just make your business so darn good nobody will WANT to buy from the "illegals". Spend that energy into your own business, not getting mad at someone else. Actually my biggest competition here are other licensed businesses...gives me something to work towards.




thumbs_up.gif

cheatize Posted 11 Dec 2010 , 5:04am
post #145 of 183

I believe cheesecakes are considered a hazardous item in Ohio and therefore they cannot be sold by a home baker. The rule of thumb I use is: if it has to be refrigerated, you can't sell it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3GCakes

Wanna know something funny?

I was a WMI for two years, here in Cincinnati, and heard all kinds of stories from my students who "sell cheesecakes and want to decorate them" and who "bake for people at the office and want to up their decorating skills."

I wouldn't really say anything, but in the back of mind I could hear Beavis and Butthead singing "Breakin' the law! Breakin' the law!"

Dummy me--little did I realize that it's all perfectly legal in little ol Ohio, either with a license or with a pretty simple 10 bucks and no carpet or pets in the kitchen.

Conversely, many of the laws in a place have a threshold. Will you be given a speeding ticket for driving 56 in a 55 zone? Prolly not. And that is the "spirit" in which laws are enforced. The letter may be broken, but the spirit knows there is little difference between 55 and 56. Someone MAY be pulled over at 58MPH, and may be turned in at 4 cakes a month but not 3. Is there a line? Sure, it's at the letter. But the spirit of the law allows the letter to stretch in the best interest of society in general, I think, yet keeps a line for when things get out of hand. And I thank God for that, because it seems like the gray area that keeps us from hurting each other, yet still allows us to help each other and keeps us from becoming a police state.


kelleym Posted 11 Dec 2010 , 5:21am
post #146 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheatize

I believe cheesecakes are considered a hazardous item in Ohio and therefore they cannot be sold by a home baker. The rule of thumb I use is: if it has to be refrigerated, you can't sell it.



I believe that in Ohio if you pay the $10 to become registered, you can sell potentially hazardous baked goods also. Someone from Ohio can feel free to correct me if I have that wrong. icon_wink.gif

Edited to add: Yep, that's correct.
http://www.agri.ohio.gov/apps/odalicensing/odalicensing.aspx?div=Food%20Safety

jason_kraft Posted 11 Dec 2010 , 5:28am
post #147 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by -K8memphis

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonkraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by -K8memphis

I think that this thread is a great example of how conflicting this is for all of us all the time as a group. We are all mere mortals hashing this out, going 'round and 'round -- so too are the people slicing and dicing the rules & regulations. Some of them are legalistic, no grey area goes unprocessed, some of them let the non-essentials go.


That's for sure. Things would be much easier if there was some kind of cottage food law at the federal level that would take precedence over the mishmash of state, county, and municipal regulations and specifically allow home businesses up to a certain income level with a base level of food safety inspections from the FDA.



But another law ain't gonna fix that. That's all at the state and local levels where it should be. Washington can't handle Washington much less what happens in kitchens across the land.



It would fix the problem if it trumps all other existing laws, as many federal laws do. For example, I can't think of a good reason for a municipality to deny a low-volume home-baking business on zoning grounds as long as there is no significant impact to the residential neighborhood, smart federal guidance on issues like this would help inject some common sense into the approval process.

This doesn't have to be managed centrally either, current employees at the state and local level could be moved into FDA or USDA to improve coordination, increase efficiency, and eliminate redundancy. States, counties, and municipalities would love this, as they could cut those positions from their budget. They could be paid for at the federal level with home-baking permit fees, inspection fees, and additional tax revenue from income that used to be off the books.

Mama_Mias_Cakes Posted 11 Dec 2010 , 9:59am
post #148 of 183
Quote:
Originally Posted by kelleym

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheatize

I believe cheesecakes are considered a hazardous item in Ohio and therefore they cannot be sold by a home baker. The rule of thumb I use is: if it has to be refrigerated, you can't sell it.


I believe that in Ohio if you pay the $10 to become registered, you can sell potentially hazardous baked goods also. Someone from Ohio can feel free to correct me if I have that wrong. icon_wink.gif

Edited to add: Yep, that's correct.
http://www.agri.ohio.gov/apps/odalicensing/odalicensing.aspx?div=Food%20Safety




You are right if you are licensed. If you are baking under the cottage food industry, then no perishable items.

fairmaiden0101 Posted 11 Dec 2010 , 10:37am
post #149 of 183

[quote="LindaF144a"]Think of it from this angle then.

"I was actually going to use selling drugs as an example. Both are illegal after all. And in the eyes of the law they are not going to be any less lenient because it was cake and not drugs. They do not work that way."


I couldnt help but laugh out loud at this one, My hubby is a police sergeant and he is sitting next to me laughing his socks off... anyhow back to reading the thread :lol

Kitagrl Posted 11 Dec 2010 , 1:21pm
post #150 of 183

[quote="fairmaiden0101"]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LindaF144a

Think of it from this angle then.

"I was actually going to use selling drugs as an example. Both are illegal after all. And in the eyes of the law they are not going to be any less lenient because it was cake and not drugs. They do not work that way."


I couldnt help but laugh out loud at this one, My hubby is a police sergeant and he is sitting next to me laughing his socks off... anyhow back to reading the thread :lol





Ummmm I don't think you can get arrested for having unlicensed cake under the seat. haha.

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