Big Bakerys Against Hb2771

Decorating By suz3 Updated 15 Mar 2010 , 1:01pm by Kitagrl

suz3 Posted 12 Mar 2010 , 3:24am
post #1 of 34

My rep. just emailed me and said that Merritts Bakery in Tulsa is against the bill. He said that it is VERY important that we get as many people as we can to contact their senators to tell them how much we want this bill to pass. Let's do this Oklahoma!!!!

33 replies
cammyblake1 Posted 12 Mar 2010 , 9:17pm
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You'd be surprised how many are against that bill. And for good reason.

KHalstead Posted 12 Mar 2010 , 9:30pm
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why would people be against it?? In Ohio it's legal to be a home baker and i don't see that it harms store front bakeries at all!

7yyrt Posted 12 Mar 2010 , 11:07pm
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Says it passed on the 24th of February.
http://www.okhouse.gov/committees/showvotes.aspx?ctl00_ContentPlaceHolder1_RadGrid1ChangePage=4

Economic Development and Financial Services Committee
2009-2010 Regular Session

HOUSE BILL2771 Home Based Bakeries Act
Proctor
DO PASS AS AMENDED BY CS PASSED

YEAS: 14 RCS# 99
NAYS: 0 2/24/2010
C/P : 0 11:19 AM


YEAS: 14

Auffet McDaniel (R.) Ownbey Sullivan
Carey McNiel Peters Key
Faught Moore Shelton
Liebmann Morgan Shumate

NAYS: 0

JenniferAtwood Posted 13 Mar 2010 , 5:10am
post #5 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by KHalstead

why would people be against it?? In Ohio it's legal to be a home baker and i don't see that it harms store front bakeries at all!



I don't want anyone to think this is my opion, just want you to know what is being said in the "big bakery" community. The problem that most have is that home bakeries will be held to a different standard than commercial bakeries. There will be a different set of Health Regulations for home bakeries than commercial ones. Most "big bakeries" would not have as big of a problem is the Health Code would be equal for all. I do not know what the differences are but I will use one that might be on it. It would not be a major one, but just showing what I mean. In a retail bakery where I live bathroom doors have to be self closing. As a Home Baker, this rule does not apply. This is a minor thing, but major ones exist also that are overlooked in a Home facility, but would cause a retail one to fork over thousands of dollars. Most retail bakeries want an even playing field.

justme50 Posted 13 Mar 2010 , 11:08am
post #6 of 34

This is what I've thought would be your biggest roadblock. Merritts has always fought any attempt at changing the laws for home bakeries. If you'll look at their website, they have a pretty insulting commentary against home bakers.


My problem with the opposition that commercial bakeries have is that they aren't honest about it. They'll tell you that they want to protect consumers and insure product safety and quality. The reality of it is that home bakers would have an unfair advantage. They can produce their goods much cheaper and be able to sell them at a lower price.

I can see their point, just wish they'd be honest about it.

pattycakesnj Posted 13 Mar 2010 , 2:35pm
post #7 of 34

justme50, that is not true. Home baked goods are not cheaper to produce. Big bakeries are able to buy flour, sugar etc in huge quantaties and at a lower cost wholesale. A lot of home bakers and those of us that just have commercial kitchens but no store front have to get our supplies from costco or supermarkets where we pay more. I can't order and store 100 lb bags of flour etc. In addition, bakeries have larger ovens and thus are able to produce more in less time, again that equals less money spent, not more. My time is worth the same as any bakery, probably more so why do you say that the product produced at home can be sold cheaper?

justme50 Posted 13 Mar 2010 , 3:00pm
post #8 of 34

They're cheaper to produce because if the law is passed, home bakers won't be required to meet the current laws and that's where the cost is.

It's not the cost of eggs and flour, it's the tens of thousands of dollars it costs to equip a bakery with commercial appliances (nevermind the operating costs of those ovens!), 3 bay sinks, plumbing, venting systems etc. that a home bakery wouldn't have to meet. Then there's the cost of the property they operate in whether it's buying or renting. Licensing a commercial bakery costs nearly 10 times what they're proposing for a home bakery. And while your time may be more valuable to you, it costs cash to have employees, provide benefits, workers compensation, etc.

Basically under this law, a home baker can pay $75 and start selling. A commercial bakery start up costs can easily run into the tens, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars and those costs have to be recouped in sales.

That said, I don't support the baking industries opposition to a change in the law. They will fight any attempt, in any way it is written, to allow people to sell from their homes. In fact, while I love their products, I won't shop at that particular bakery because of their stance and the statement they have on their website.

I do however oppose this particular bill because I disagree with some of the details being proposed and the costs of implementing it at a time when our state is in a budget crisis.

KHalstead Posted 13 Mar 2010 , 7:17pm
post #9 of 34

I see why the bakeries are getting upset I guess........but why then are there so many bakeries in Ohio when it's legal to sell from home and it doesn't even cost $75. It costs $10, yes $10 where I live to get inspected for a home-based baking business......and let me tell you, they do NOT want to be bothered to look at your place for that $10 when it's legal to operate without the inspection.

I think home-based in these parts pretty much just means "buyer beware", because you never know what someone's kitchen looks like. or if they'll just run off with your money. although I've seen the kitchens of more home-based bakers than I have commercial store front bakeries ...now THEY WON"T let you in their kitchen for anything!!!!!

justme50 Posted 14 Mar 2010 , 1:14am
post #10 of 34

If Oklahoma was doing what Ohio did, I'd be thrilled to see this law get enacted. But no, as they often do here, they want to enact a cumbersome, costly program where one is not needed.

I have no doubt the big bakeries would survive, but to them, better not to have to deal with it at all, if possible. Only time will tell if their influence with lawmakers is as strong as ever.

JenniferAtwood Posted 14 Mar 2010 , 2:07am
post #11 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by pattycakesnj

justme50, that is not true. Home baked goods are not cheaper to produce. . My time is worth the same as any bakery, probably more so why do you say that the product produced at home can be sold cheaper?




It's not the ingredients that are the problem. I see it on here all of the time. Just a few min. ago a lady posted a photo and wanted to know if $25 dollars was enough to charge for a 3D figure that I am sure took her hours to make. We have a lady that works for us who used to do cakes out of her home. She has been friends with my grandmother for years. When her husband died last year she decided that it was too much to do alone and came to work for us. I know for a fact that she way undercharged for her work she did a $800 cake to serve 200 people and spent over two weeks making the 1500 gumpaste flowers that totally covered the cake. She recovered her ingredient cost Im sure, but ended up making like $1 an hour or thereabout. Most (not all) home bakers don't count their time, utilities, and sometimes all of their ingredients when pricing a cake. While this will put them out of business in the long run, it hurts the market in the short run.

We have a lady near us that does a cake to serve 100 for 50cents a serving. Now you tell me...do you really think she is accounting for ALL of her expenses. My parents started the business with $100 and now we run 1.8 million in sales each year. It was our choice to grow bigger, a choice any other big bakery has made as well. We are accountable to other owners, our employees, and to the community as a whole. The problem is that most home bakers won't have to be accountable in the same way.

We can not have animals in our facility, yet I know of many of my grandmothers friends that are home decorators that have cats and dogs. I am not against home bakers, but is it really fair that they do not have to abide by the same rules as I. They dont have to carry the same insurance as I, or be liable just like I have to be yet they compete for the same business. This is not a matter of the fat competing against the lean it is a matter of being able to compete in the long run.

In a lot of states home-based businesses are not required and/or not enforced to charge sales tax. Sales taxes support local fire and police departments and the like with many home decorators not charging or turning in sales tax, it gives them a 5-10% advantage over what we have to charge. How is that fair?

We have many home bakers in our area, some are good and some I wouldnt wish on my worst enemy. Yes we have one that sells her cakes out of the back of her pickup and on numerous occasions has left customers high and dry after paying for their product. Why doesn't she have to be accountable?

Again, I have no problems with home decorators in general I just wish they would be on a more level playing field and, quite honestly, charge appropriately for their time. Losing a cake order over taste, quality or personal preference doesnt upset me losing one because someone is ok making 20 cents an hour does.

suz3 Posted 14 Mar 2010 , 3:53pm
post #12 of 34

I think many home bakers would open a bakery if they could afford it. There is no reason that we can't have both. We have big child care centers and home daycare. Same business different set of requirements.

Jenn2179 Posted 14 Mar 2010 , 4:36pm
post #13 of 34

I totally understand for those who are opposed to home bakeries because the rules are not the same. Here in NC a bakery that that does not have a "dine-in" area has the same set of standards as a home based bakery. We are both goverened by the Dept of Agriculture. If there is a "dine-in" are is is considered a restaurant and is regulated by the health department. Luckily we are not allowed to have pets which I think is super important. We have to pay sales tax like a big bakeries. I think the rules should be the same for everyone.

justme50 Posted 14 Mar 2010 , 8:10pm
post #14 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by suz3

I think many home bakers would open a bakery if they could afford it. There is no reason that we can't have both. We have big child care centers and home daycare. Same business different set of requirements.




No, actually the requirements are the same in daycare. Many of the requirements are based on the number of children you care for (number of beds, square footage required, number of caregivers per child etc...), but it those requirements are not based on whether the day care is operated out of a private home vs a "business" setting.

And really, whether a home baker can afford to open a business shouldn't have any bearing on the issue. There are lots of things in life I can't afford to do, I don't expect other taxpayers to pay so that I can do them.

justme50 Posted 14 Mar 2010 , 8:21pm
post #15 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenn2179

I totally understand for those who are opposed to home bakeries because the rules are not the same. Here in NC a bakery that that does not have a "dine-in" area has the same set of standards as a home based bakery. We are both goverened by the Dept of Agriculture. If there is a "dine-in" are is is considered a restaurant and is regulated by the health department. Luckily we are not allowed to have pets which I think is super important. We have to pay sales tax like a big bakeries. I think the rules should be the same for everyone.




And yet another state that has managed to set up regulations that make sense and don't cost a fortune to implement.

Oklahoma could do it too, they've just chosen not to with this bill.

suz3 Posted 14 Mar 2010 , 9:47pm
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I expect to pay taxes, be inspected, have insurance just like a big business. I just won't have commercial equipment for maybe 2-4 cakes and a couple dozen cookies a month.

Texas_Rose Posted 14 Mar 2010 , 10:16pm
post #17 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by justme50

Quote:
Originally Posted by suz3

I think many home bakers would open a bakery if they could afford it. There is no reason that we can't have both. We have big child care centers and home daycare. Same business different set of requirements.



No, actually the requirements are the same in daycare. Many of the requirements are based on the number of children you care for (number of beds, square footage required, number of caregivers per child etc...), but it those requirements are not based on whether the day care is operated out of a private home vs a "business" setting.

And really, whether a home baker can afford to open a business shouldn't have any bearing on the issue. There are lots of things in life I can't afford to do, I don't expect other taxpayers to pay so that I can do them.




That really varies by state. Here tons of people operate legal home daycares and they don't have the requirements or expenses that a commercial daycare has. If I wanted to, I could pay a very small licensing fee and befcome a listed home daycare, which would mean I could care for up to three children other than my own, with no required inspection or training. I think TX does it that way because they want to make sure that they collect taxes from even the small home daycares. If there were as many home bakeries here as home daycares I am sure they would be more eager to pass a home bakers bill so they could get our taxes that way too.

suz3 Posted 14 Mar 2010 , 11:21pm
post #18 of 34

Thank you. That is the point I was trying to make.

justme50 Posted 15 Mar 2010 , 1:52am
post #19 of 34
Quote:
Quote:

That really varies by state.




Yes, it does as does it vary for licensing of bakeries and we were talking about Oklahoma and our laws.


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Quote:

  I expect to pay taxes, be inspected, have insurance just like a big business. I just won't have commercial equipment for maybe 2-4 cakes and a couple dozen cookies a month.





It's much more than commercial equipment that un-levels the playing field. One of the issues with this bill is that the 20k sale limit adds up to a whole lot more than 4 cakes and 2 dozen cookies.

Prices being as rock bottom here as they are, selling 20k a year in product adds up to a huge amount of baking and far surpasses the little home baker putting out 2 or 3 cakes a month. That's one of the major reasons this bill is going to be vigorously opposed by established bakeries. I think they'll fight any bill, but this one in particular even more so.

If they want to pass a bill that limits home bakers to $5k a year, not limit the number who can be licensed and make the licensing fee cover the cost of the program....sign me up as a huge supporter!

indydebi Posted 15 Mar 2010 , 2:02am
post #20 of 34

jumping in just to do the math.....

A small wedding cake that sells for $400 (100-125 servings give or take), that's 50 weddings a year ... that's a wedding every weekend, minus 2 weeks for vacation. If a baker sells for $2 or $2.50 a serving, it's even more wedding cakes than that.

If you divide it down to $100 birthday cakes, that's 200 cakes a year .... 4 cakes a week, one cake every 1.8 days.

That's not a mom doing "a few cakes on the side" to make extra money for her family. That's a full fledged competing business. I think that's the point other posters are trying to make.

Kitagrl Posted 15 Mar 2010 , 2:17am
post #21 of 34

There are tons of home bakers around here and several small bakeries and several large bakeries, and TONS and TONS of catering places that do wedding cakes. There's enough clients to go around, really.

I don't pose a huge threat to the industry...I can only put out maybe 3-5 cakes per weekend (maybe only 2-3 weddings but I don't get that many). I only have one oven and two cake refrigerators and not enough storage area to buy alot of supplies so I go to Sam's and the grocery store each week to buy supplies...and Michaels with coupons to buy my boards half price.

The bakeries can do 10-20 weddings per weekend...yeah they have more expense but they also have more profit. I think it evens out in the end. And the regulations are basically the same....although for us we have to stick to cake (non perishable) and most bakeries offer cheesecakes and stuff so thus they have more rules than a home baker does (who sticks to nonperishable).

Its the same "playing field" as any other business...you have to make your business attractive enough to get the most customers.

chefjulie Posted 15 Mar 2010 , 2:36am
post #22 of 34

If a person's doing $20K in sales annually, chances are they're NOT doing it from a home kitchen. I really see this bill as a good thing. It gives home bakers a chance to try to see if their "hobby" really could be a business without losing thousands of dollars. If they're making more than 2-3 cakes a week, then they're going to have to find a bigger, better place (store front or rented kitchen) to move to. If they're selling themselves (and other bakers) short, then they wont be in business long. Either way, some people are just NOT going to pay big bakery prices for cakes. They'll go to Wal-Mart or the home baker for a "deal" but I doubt they're really impacting "real" bakeries.

Kitagrl Posted 15 Mar 2010 , 2:38am
post #23 of 34

I don't give "deals" from my home kitchen haha.... I don't have the time or the money! thumbs_up.gif

chefjulie Posted 15 Mar 2010 , 2:42am
post #24 of 34

Kitagrl- I was referring to more of the fly-by-night baker! The one who's in business because her best friend said her daughter's cake was awesome, and she should totally start selling her cakes!

Kitagrl Posted 15 Mar 2010 , 2:44am
post #25 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by chefjulie

Kitagrl- I was referring to more of the fly-by-night baker! The one who's in business because her best friend said her daughter's cake was awesome, and she should totally start selling her cakes!




Right...yeah I'm with everyone else on that, I hate losing a customer who finds out they can go to the neighbor down the street who will do it for $1.50 per serving.... icon_rolleyes.gif

Texas_Rose Posted 15 Mar 2010 , 2:57am
post #26 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by justme50

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Quote:

That really varies by state.



Yes, it does as does it vary for licensing of bakeries and we were talking about Oklahoma and our laws.





If you read back through the thread, the laws in several states were being discussed as a basis for why the law should or should not be changed in OK. Home daycare and home bakeries are the businesses stay-home moms with young children most often think of starting and it has always seemed bizarre to me that the laws are so much more relaxed for childcare licensing than for bakers, in any state.

chefjulie Posted 15 Mar 2010 , 2:59am
post #27 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Texas_Rose

Quote:
Originally Posted by justme50

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Quote:

That really varies by state.



Yes, it does as does it vary for licensing of bakeries and we were talking about Oklahoma and our laws.





If you read back through the thread, the laws in several states were being discussed as a basis for why the law should or should not be changed in OK. Home daycare and home bakeries are the businesses stay-home moms with young children most often think of starting and it has always seemed bizarre to me that the laws are so much more relaxed for childcare licensing than for bakers, in any state.




I agree!

And let's not even get started on Taco Trucks icon_rolleyes.gif

justme50 Posted 15 Mar 2010 , 4:17am
post #28 of 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by indydebi

jumping in just to do the math.....

A small wedding cake that sells for $400 (100-125 servings give or take), that's 50 weddings a year ... that's a wedding every weekend, minus 2 weeks for vacation. If a baker sells for $2 or $2.50 a serving, it's even more wedding cakes than that.

If you divide it down to $100 birthday cakes, that's 200 cakes a year .... 4 cakes a week, one cake every 1.8 days.

That's not a mom doing "a few cakes on the side" to make extra money for her family. That's a full fledged competing business. I think that's the point other posters are trying to make.




Thanks, you made the point so much better that I seem to be able to!

chefjulie Posted 15 Mar 2010 , 4:32am
post #29 of 34

I see the point there, I'm just wondering what home baker has that sort of space in their house? I mean, honestly the thought of that in my kitchen would be like my worst nightmare, lol! Can you imagine the chaos?!?!

madgeowens Posted 15 Mar 2010 , 4:43am
post #30 of 34

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