Ices needs to own and take the responsibility for their part in an unfair and slipshod run event. They need to acknowledge the dichotomous, trichotomous, quadchotomous, quintchotomous you get the drift, rules.
The crummy way they bitch slapped me at the start gate and afterwards with that ridiculous sign here on the dotted line and we'll tell yah the results fiasco where I never heard from them for a week.
I am insulted, righteously indignant by their thought that I needed to be disqualified.
Who do they think they are.
Here's what their own rules say: [/color]
Question : We read a lot about what is allowed, but what is not allowed? Is there anything that we could bring in that would disqualify us or
prevent us from earning the points (besides workmanship) of an element.
Answer: Wow, great question. I've been thinking about this one for a while, and I'm not coming up with any specific tools or supplies which
would automatically disqualify you.
{raising hand frantically--me me teacher I got one!!!}
BUT if you were to bring in pre-made items that the adjudicators feel reasonably sure that you did not make
yourself, those premade items could be disqualified for use, and the adjudicators would subsequently be keeping a much closer eye on you and
your work.
{NOT!!!!!! No they disqualifed ME not my premade items like it clearly states~they don't even know thier own dang rules}
For example, you bring in commercially made gum paste flowers to place on your cake, and one or more adjudicators recognize
them as not your work. Or you bring in beautifully finished runout pieces, but the pieces you make during the test look like someone attempting
the skill for the very first time.
In your most pinched squeeky strained high pitched confusedescending (sic) voice---the voice of Ices
Well we're so caring and sharing we're out like busy buzzy little bees with our abundant caring and and bountiful sharing. And also we volunteer share and volunteer care, we have day jobs but we volunteer so you have to be patient with us no no no we are not patient with you we care and we share no matter what.
We care about ourselves and we share no responsibility.
Does anyone know the answer to this question --
Is this certification recognized/accepted by any other organization, such as RBA, any culinary/pastry schools, the MOF in France, anything?
Theresa
I don't think so...If I remember correctly, this is something new that they've done for only two or three years. It sounds like a money-making opportunity for ICES more than anything else "Hey kids, let's put on a certification program! We can rake in some bucks from that!"
I see why you'd want the certification if you were going to use it as evidence of something for the zoning board, but I have such a low opinion of most judged competitions/tests anyway, I don't see the point of doing them. Out of curiosity, what would the zoning board let you do that you can't do without this particular certification?
Oh yeah, K8, by the way, it's not the International Cake Exploration "Society", it's "Societe' " 
Does anyone know the answer to this question --
Is this certification recognized/accepted by any other organization, such as RBA, any culinary/pastry schools, the MOF in France, anything?
Theresa
I don't think so...If I remember correctly, this is something new that they've done for only two or three years. It sounds like a money-making opportunity for ICES more than anything else "Hey kids, let's put on a certification program! We can rake in some bucks from that!"
I see why you'd want the certification if you were going to use it as evidence of something for the zoning board, but I have such a low opinion of most judged competitions/tests anyway, I don't see the point of doing them. Out of curiosity, what would the zoning board let you do that you can't do without this particular certification?
Let me tell you why I asked - In the past, I worked with a local colleges and universities to promote the education programs that my employer provided.
I see no need to take a test that is not recognized by any other organization. ICES is not an accredited teaching facility, nor is accredited by the distance learning council. You can't show that to the Dean of Admissions and get college credit for it. You can't take it to a pastry diploma program and say "ICES says I can do this" and expect them to let you stay home for that section. It doesn't give you letters after your name, like M.A. or Ph.D. So, technically, the only people who would give a hoot about that certificate are other ICES people, and maybe some customers.
I don't want all of you to think that I absolutely hate ICES. I had met a couple of very nice people there. Only a couple, but that's another story for another time.
I have little respect for the organization in general and most of the membership that is still living in the 1950's, and treat the organization like it's some kind of covert militia. I commend B. Keith Ryder and those who were truly with him, for trying to bring the group into the light of the new millennium, but it keeps falling back into the control of those who can't accept change or progress, and those who think treat ICES like it's a religion.
Theresa
I love Keith too--class act, has my utmost respect.
Czarina, I don't know that the zoning board woulda done anything different. They let you apply for the variance but are quick to say they've never granted one. I wanted to try & run with that ball though.
Maybe I was grasping at straws (dowel).
Ok I was grasping at straws.
I have two commercail ovens, blablablablablablabla never been used. One is brand spanking new. A Deluxe.
Yeah I'm a dreamer--thought I could market myself into teaching more too.
Oh yeah, K8, by the way, it's not the International Cake Exploration "Society", it's "Societe' "
Yeah you're rignt.
And doesn't the 'I' stand for Inept?
Have you ever read that mission statement?
Even on my happiest most carefree day on the planet, when I read that I throw up in my mouth a little.
Ok Kate - this will make you laugh. I went onto the ICES webiste to see what it's all about (parden my Aussie ignorance). My hubby just came home to grab some lunch, walked in behind me and saw the pic on their home page of the topsy turvy with all the flowers and exclaimed "Oh my god, is that another cake disaster!" I know - he's a man, but I cracked up considering all these posts!
What is the zoning benefit you will get out of all this? Is it worth all the angst and is there another path you can take to get the same result. As in, from what Theresa has said, is there another organisation you can gain accreditation with that is not living in the dark ages! ( and also more recognised.)
If your pre-made pieces were being disputed, surely the more time they had to actually watch you work the better, to determine if they were in fact yours. By not allowing you to start, they did not give you fair chance to prove yourself. So they basically called you a cheat and then didn't allow a right of reply. I can only assume that you were embarrassed and your business name was tarnished. In which case, a well worded letter using the "defamation"word might see a speedy refund coming your way!
Did the piece of paper they had you sign waive your right to dispute their decision?
...What is the zoning benefit you will get out of all this? Is it worth all the angst and is there another path you can take to get the same result. As in, from what Theresa has said, is there another organisation you can gain accreditation with that is not living in the dark ages! ( and also more recognised.)
If your pre-made pieces were being disputed, surely the more time they had to actually watch you work the better, to determine if they were in fact yours. ...
In which case, a well worded letter using the "defamation"word might see a speedy refund coming your way!
Did the piece of paper they had you sign waive your right to dispute their decision?
I love your husband! 
I have this unyielding brickheaded passion to do cakes at home. It only makes sense for me. But it is not legal here without a zoning variance. It's all about being legal and working from home.
I could go get a commercial location but then the overhead. I have tons of energy but I am limited a little physically so part time cakes is best for me and part time cakes won't pay the rent in a commercial location.
No I did not sign away my right to dispute.
And I like the idea of a letter very much--not that they're not logged on here reading this either--Hey Glenda, Hey Kim. Glenda is the president and Kim is the new head of certification future.
But then I'm thinking geez I sent a check from Tennessee to the East coast to pay for it and the test was conducted in Illinois-wonder where the jurisdiction lies?
By not allowing you to start, they did not give you fair chance to prove yourself. So they basically called you a cheat and then didn't allow a right of reply. I can only assume that you were embarrassed and your business name was tarnished.
Even though you are waaaay across the globe and I've been ranting like a crazy person--you got it. That's it. I'm an honest person. They impugned my character. I'm a deacon in my church. A deacon. Taht word means servant, a worker bee and it means a well respected person. Not a cheater.They dq'd me without cause by their own rules. I am honest. I did not cheat. They were SO WAY WRONG. SO WAY WRONG. WAY WAY WRONG to do that.
And I have fibromyalgia. My brain power was long gone by the time I stopped shaking from the disqualification. But I finished every freaking skill I said I was gonna do.
You guys are helping me so much. I could just hug you (((hug)))
It's a big fat pain in the butt for you guys to have to have commercial kitchens, I work from home too. Surely having an ICES accreditation can't be the only way to get the variance. Over here we have to have our kitchens inspected by our local council Environmental Health officer and they like you to do a Food Handling Hygiene course.
Has there been any other threads about getting a variance, it would be great to talk to other cakers who have done it.
It appears common sense along with common courtesy was lost in this situation. From the Q & A's you posted, I find it offensive on your behalf that you were forced to sit and wait it out in a room full of your peers, whilst your character and ability were disputed. No classy - not classy AT ALL!! The had the right to not pass you at the END, that is after all what a test is right? 
big hugs!
jurisdiction lies where the entity in question is incorporated (why so many credit card companies are in just 2 states: Delaware & South Dakota -- very cc friendly rules)
according to their bylaws (under legal section on their website) it is Michigan. See articles I, II and III
http://www.ices.org/legal/CurrentBylaws.pdf
Sorry if I missed this if you explained this already, but I'm still confused?
So if you werenât disqualified for premade stuff, what exactly were you disqualified for? What did they say you were disqualified for?
Also, how long was the temporary disqualification? How long did you have to work? How long did everyone else have?
Doug- you are a totally certifiable nutjob! And we all love you.
Sorry if I missed this if you explained this already, but I'm still confused?
So if you werenât disqualified for premade stuff, what exactly were you disqualified for? What did they say you were disqualified for?
Also, how long was the temporary disqualification? How long did you have to work? How long did everyone else have?
It was a brief time--but it was at the very start--It was, "No you can't start" with their arms outstretched like a traffic cop. I'm like "What????"
Why not. Everybody else is. I mean we took our vacation time to do this. We traveled over 500 miles. I spent months and months and months planning and practicing. With lodging and ingredients and equipment I spent thousands of dollars. What do you mean I can't start? It's go time.
Then in a few someone said, "She can start." But the mental damage was done but I just freaking got going on my Lambeth but I was shaking pretty bad .
I mean they were coming up & telling me to breath breath because I was messed up but I couldn't diddle around I had to pump it out-game on.
So rewind with me--45 minutes before the start time when I sat two of the 3 tiers on the presentation table, painted & pearled & piped. 10-15 minutes later a public announcment is made that nothing can go on the presentation tables unless it is finished and then it cannot be removed.
So that's the first time I got embarassed and while passive it was a public upbraiding because nobody else had anything on their tables.
All that to say they totally knew about the cakes 45 minutes before the start. Then there's 15 minutes when adjudicators are in private rummaging through your stuff to make sure you don't have anything you shouldn't have. So they had 15 minutes in private to discuss this.
It's like a foot race where everybody starts but you. Catch yah later...
Oh yeah, K8, by the way, it's not the International Cake Exploration "Society", it's "Societe' "
Yeah you're rignt.
And doesn't the 'I' stand for Inept?
Have you ever read that mission statement?
Even on my happiest most carefree day on the planet, when I read that I throw up in my mouth a little.
My husband makes fun of me every time he sees the ICES name anywhere, since he found out that they also claim it stands for "Icing, Caring, Everyone Sharing." Gross....
[quote="costumeczar"][quote="K8memphis-"]
My husband makes fun of me every time he sees the ICES name anywhere, since he found out that they also claim it stands for "Icing, Caring, Everyone Sharing." Gross....
Yeah, at a price. $60 USD a year for a newsletter, and the privilege of spending a couple of thousand dollars to attend their convention and classes, then spend some more at the vendors, then spend some more taking a test that doesn't mean a damn thing outside their world.
Sharing used to mean giving from your heart, not picking someone's pocket.
I'll pass.
Theresa
I freely did this certification process. I knew the accreditation was not going to add up more points toward becoming a pastry chef like for example attending the World Pastry Forum classes did.
Since I can't do stuff from home legally, this would give some spring board. I was gonna try with the zoning board again...But still I could use it to 'be it' in my area and be invited to teach and market myself in that way too. It could have been monetarily beneficial. Could perhaps guest teach at local pastry programs for example.
What would be wrong with being recognized publically for your life's work?
I totally fit the criteria they sent me. You had to hit 70% average or above. My stuff was not under a 70% average--not according to their own rules.
There's a step down from the 'master sugar artist' designation--it's a 'sugar artist' designation--Come on! Sure my stuff coulda been better--
Take your world on the road and pop out four displays in eight hours.
Dude, they not only charged me an entrance fee and I knew there would be spectators--the spectators had to pay too!!! Come see the panda exhibit!
Then I got into this incredible meat grinder...
I'd like to thank you all for letting me hemorrhage here over the holiday weekend.
I'm not bitter. I'm not full of myself (re the 'it' comment). Just meant it as a marketing tool type 'itness'.
So last month I sent my observations to Ices to make this better going forward.
And for you who might want to do this~~ I suggest as a good prerequisite that you have a cake competition win under your belt before attempting this. Or perhaps plan on investing a coupla years to accomplish it.
Maybe try for a percentage of the 'take' at the door
Should really go to a charity huh.
Just a thought for you. Thanks again guys.
Being bored at the moment, I perused this topic.
Wow.
Perhaps if you'd done a condensed version of why you were made to sit out for a time, and perhaps if you wrote it more concisely and easier to understand, it could've been condensed from 6 pages.
Sorry for your bad luck...stinks when you don't understand all the rules.
Being bored at the moment, I perused this topic.
Wow.
Perhaps if you'd done a condensed version of why you were made to sit out for a time, and perhaps if you wrote it more concisely and easier to understand, it could've been condensed from 6 pages.
Sorry for your bad luck...stinks when you don't understand all the rules.
I haven't checked lately but pretty sure there were a couple other people contributing to the 6 page length not to mention the merry band of Cake Central's International Idol songsters.
On page four there's the Cliff Notes Version aka condensed version. I know I was all over the place--point taken.
Believe me nobody knows how much this effed me up like I do. I am gutted, flies are swarming and.... I am getting better.
It was difficult as you noted to bare my aching soul of it's public failure and passive humiliation once again. The first time it was to a packed house of paying spectators. ha!
My ultimate point is that I think it stinks more when the adjudicators don't know their own rules. This is neither the first year nor am I the first person they pulled this on. The plot thickens...
And my more ultimate point--that would be the ultimater point is that after I communicated these issues to Ices (much more succinctly than I did here 
) and requested my $150 refund they reiterated thier refund policy. Ices never addressed my issues.
On the upside I should be glad that they did peruse their own rules to that extent eh?
"Icing and caring everyone sharing."
So I mean I had it all written out much better at first and people were following along to the tune of 250 look sees like I had mentioned back there somewhere.
Then I got scared that I was opening myself up to potential owies and that's when I deleted everything and put the 'Have a good day' stuff figuring the thread would just drop away and all's well.
But then some folks started replying and then I felt I needed to explain and everyone was singing and yes it is confusing.
How could the adjudicators conduct cake business in that manner? Put me loosing all aside. But to jerk someone around like that?
They did the secret decoder ring scenario last year too--where you expect to get your results days later at the banquet ok fine. They then change it up and have you sign a waiver to get them early if you say you'll keep them secret and then they never tell you for a week.
WTF
How could the adjudicators conduct cake business in that manner? Put me loosing all aside. But to jerk someone around like that?
They did the secret decoder ring scenario last year too--where you expect to get your results days later at the banquet ok fine. They then change it up and have you sign a waiver to get them early if you say you'll keep them secret and then they never tell you for a week.
It sounds like they all have their heads up where the sun don't shine. This needs to be addressed, and if they won't address it with the person who complains, then maybe they'll address it when it's plastered all over the internet.
I think you were right to post this, so that anyone else who's thinking of doing the "certification" will be on the lookout.
And my more ultimate point--that would be the ultimater point is that after I communicated these issues to Ices (much more succinctly than I did here
) and requested my $150 refund they reiterated thier refund policy. Ices never addressed my issues.On the upside I should be glad that they did peruse their own rules to that extent eh?
"Icing and caring everyone sharing."
Only took 'em a month though, last week they decided that.
Being bored at the moment, I perused this topic.
Wow.
Perhaps if you'd done a condensed version of why you were made to sit out for a time, and perhaps if you wrote it more concisely and easier to understand, it could've been condensed from 6 pages.
Sorry for your bad luck...stinks when you don't understand all the rules.
Most ppl here on cc read each others' woe stories and then either commiserate (sp?) with them, or give them advice. that's what most of us here were doeing, including the merry singers, who were trying to get Kate out of her funk.
and when I'm angry, I tend to babble. It all makes little sense until you read the whole saga a few times, then it starts to come together so you get the idea of what I'm trying to say. Our friend did quite a good job here.
Also, you seem to imply that she was at fault for not understanding the rules. It seems like the judges themselves didn't quite understand them either.
And she signed some sort of waiver to hear the results sooner, but didn't hear back from them til much later...
It sounds like these snotty ICES ppl are confused, full of themselves and full of %#*
Thank you very much Kate! I was considering joining ICES for quite a while now, but something just didn't sit right with me. Now I know I made the right decision in waiting.
Good things will happen for you, because you are a good honest person. I just wish that good people would stop being taken advantage of, I hope this gets straightened out for you and in a timely manor.
All the best
Shannie
Thank you very much Kate! I was considering joining ICES for quite a while now, but something just didn't sit right with me. Now I know I made the right decision in waiting.
Good things will happen for you, because you are a good honest person. I just wish that good people would stop being taken advantage of, I hope this gets straightened out for you and in a timely manor.
All the best
Shannie
I think it's very sad that the singular experience of Kate--in an event that has taken place only twice (2008 & 2009) for a total of less than 30 people--would bring anyone to the point of completely dismissing the HUGE positive impact of ICES !
Obvioulsy, Kate had a bad experience with her go at the certification process for CMSA/CSA (Certified Master Sugar Artist/Certified Sugar Artist). It's very hard to be told that you've failed, especially when you've invested a lot of time and $ into the process. BUT, there is another side to this story (and NO, I don't know it--I'm not part of the certification process, or the political hierarchy of ICES)--and NO ONE has heard any of that half of the story--and probably never will.
I can't defend everything that ICES does---as a member, that's not my job or right. Mistakes are made every day in every aspect of every life, but the detractors here have said some HORRID things about an organization THAT I FIND TO BE A WONDERFUL AVENUE FOR LEARNING AND SHARING ABOUT SUGAR ART.
ICES chapters worldwide are responsible for many, many of the opportunities sugar artists have for low cost, high quality classes with respected sugar art teachers. Nick Lodge travels and teaches tirelessly at many ICES mini classes--and there are dozens of others who do the same.
I found ICES as I was completing my Wilton 3 class about 5 years ago. Several months later, I attended my first OH Day of Sharing. I had no idea about what was out there for me as someone developing an obsession about sugar art, but thru ICES, I've been able to touch nearly all of the techniques in the field.
For my $60 a year, I get a regular publication that feeds my mind and curiosity, discounted costs to access ICES DOS meetings and classes, an option to apply for scholarships, and hours of "Free" talk and chatter with lots of people with the same interests.
No organization of human beings is ever perfect, but to assume that an entire group is bad, tainted, or worthless, just because one process didn't go smoothly for someone, is really cold...................
Supporting someone who is down is one thing--of course I hope Kate rallies and works thru this in a positive way--but this trend of going so far as to defame something that you're not part of, have not had a bad experience with, and don't fully understand the workings of................that's at least as "wrong" as anything that was done improperly during the Certification process.................
Just my very honest opinion
Rae
BlakesCakes- Just my take on the situation- Last year, my laptop broke. I paid $300 for a service plan on it when I purchased it so that if and when it broke, the store would fix it. It was only a year into it's 3 year plan, so I took it back to the store (Fry's) and asked them to fix it. Long story, short, they refused and said the damage was my fault- it WAS NOT! (initially, the rep said that he hated Sony laptops because my problem was such a common defect in Sonys). I left FUMING because my $1500 laptop was garbage and Fry's refused to honor their service plan.
My point? I have no problem with Fry's CUSTOMERS, but I have a HUGE problem with the store and it's management. I will not shop there, and I tell everyone I know not to shop there.
Same with ICES. If I hear that people are getting screwed, I'm going to be a little weary of joining. If their "customer service" sucked SO bad with one "customer" then I have to question whether I want to "shop" there. I'm sure the customers are awesome, though
I mean, the first rule in customer service is "The customer is always right" There are times I HATE that statement, but really, what would it have hurt to return K8 her $$$? It certainly would have made a better statement than to say "Screw you" OBVIOUSLY there was a problem with their rules, so they should have sucked it up and said "Sorry, we'll refund you your $$$ and re-evaluate the rules" Hell, they could have gone a step beyond and said "we'll even cover your cost to try again next year". That's how you keep customers happy and prevent the exact situation going on now.
I wonder how many people are NOT going to join or renew their membership now...
What you get out of ICES might also depend on your level of experience, and how active your local chapter is, too. My local ICES chapter does a lot of things in Northern VA and the VA Beach area, which is very nice, but I'm 2-3 hours away from all of that. I also tend to be on the more skilled end of the experience spectrum, so when I did go to the DOS that I was able to go to, I found it to be a pretty big waste of my time. The last convention that was close enough for me to think about going to had only about one or two demos/classes out of everything offered that I would have been interested in attending.
For beginners, ICES is a good way to gain exposure to some skills that you might not have seen demonstrated before, but once you get to a certain skill level it's not as useful. For my $60 I get a monthly newsletter that rarely has anything in it other than convention information, pictures of cakes that I can see online, and some ads.
I do understand that not every organization can be everything to everyone, and I'm not doubting that there are people who work hard, and try to make ICES better. But the point in K8's story was that they didn't respond or listen to her concerns, both during the certification and after it. If I did that as a wedding cake vendor, the bride would probably complain about me to the Better Business Bureau. It's not good customer service.
[quote="chefjulie If their "customer service" sucked SO bad with one "customer" then I have to question whether I want to "shop" there. membership now...[/quote]
Great minds think alike, ha ha ha!
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