What's The "rule" For Fillings And Refrigeration?

Decorating By joviolette Updated 10 Aug 2009 , 5:57am by joviolette

joviolette Posted 7 Aug 2009 , 5:46pm
post #1 of 22

I've searched piles of recipes but most don't say whether or not they require refrigeration. How do I know? Whipped cream seems obvious but what about recipes that use cream...milk, eggs in fillings? Does the sugar help prevent spoiling? Would love ant hints, thx!

21 replies
AfordRN Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 6:47am
post #2 of 22

I would like a good rule of thumb also. I've read that the pwd sugar will cancel out the need to refrige cream cheese if you use enough of it. Heres a BUMP for ya.

Mike1394 Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 12:11pm
post #3 of 22

Rule of thumb if it has dairy in it refrigerate. No sugar is not a preservative.

Mike

Doug Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 1:04pm
post #4 of 22

cooked filling or uncooked?

does make a difference.

yes, sugar is a preservative in very high quantities, consider jams and jellys and most any candy (fruit leather -- bleeh, air heads -- double bleah!)

---

time is also a factor

temp and humidity is also a factor.

------

the closet there is to a rule is the guidelines taught in the ServeSafe certification course
https://www.daydots.com/magazine/pdfs/HandlingFood_article.pdf

cooked fillings would be a cold food.

FDA resources:
http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Food/FoodSafety/RetailFoodProtection/FoodCode/FoodCode2005/UCM124025.pdf
http://www.fda.gov/Food/FoodSafety/RetailFoodProtection/ManagingFoodSafetyHACCPPrinciples/Operators/default.htm
(these principals covered in the ServeSafe course)

you will find little specifically said about baked goods as they are "complex" food (lots of different parts in various cooked/uncooked states)

my state and many others look at the "water reactivity" meaning how moist and how available that moisture is to allowing growth of "bad buggies"

but, have you noticed how even in a WalMart, some bakery things are in a refrigerator case and others not? Most cakes are, most donuts, strudels, and other pastries (even filled) are not.

I have observed how most diners and restaurants DO keep cakes and pies in a cold case at <40degrees.

And if you watch CakeBoss, Buddy and gang are forever putting cakes in to cold cases and leaving then there until delivery or pickup.

Yes, cakes and pies can sit out for days (and turn rock hard!) or they can be in the fridge (which the pros use to retain moisture and to keep that stupid cake from slip-slidin' away!)

Food holding guidelines allow for MAX of 4 hours in the "danger zone"

when in doubt -- chill

I DO chill any filling that I home prepare, and anything with cream cheese.

Mike1394 Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 1:21pm
post #5 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug

cooked filling or uncooked?

does make a difference.

yes, sugar is a preservative in very high quantities, consider jams and jellys and most any candy (fruit leather -- bleeh, air heads -- double bleah!).




I disagree Doug. Lets take out all commercially made products, preservatives.

Sugar in itself doesn't preserve foods. Sugar attracts moisture, batcteria needs moisture, temperature, and something to eat to survive. If you take a qt of H cream with an ounce of sugar in it, and set it in 90 dgeree heat it will go bad pretty fast. If you take that same qt, and put a gallon of sugar in it, it will take longer for the cream to degrade, but it doesn't preserve it. It will still go bad, it will just take longer.

Mike

Doug Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 1:50pm
post #6 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1394

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug

cooked filling or uncooked?

does make a difference.

yes, sugar is a preservative in very high quantities, consider jams and jellys and most any candy (fruit leather -- bleeh, air heads -- double bleah!).



I disagree Doug. Lets take out all commercially made products, preservatives.

Sugar in itself doesn't preserve foods. Sugar attracts moisture, batcteria needs moisture, temperature, and something to eat to survive. If you take a qt of H cream with an ounce of sugar in it, and set it in 90 dgeree heat it will go bad pretty fast. If you take that same qt, and put a gallon of sugar in it, it will take longer for the cream to degrade, but it doesn't preserve it. It will still go bad, it will just take longer.

Mike




it's a matter of the AMOUNT of sugar involved vs other ingredients.

now do the same with jam -- not a problem. (except for the flies having a field day!) ditto for fruit leather -- very high sugar in both (ever made homemade jam? lordy, the amount of sugar that goes into a batch!)

most powdered sugar BC has such a load of sugar vs the "other stuff" the sugar wins. my recipe calls for just 2TBS of milk vs. 2LBs of sugar -- sugar wins.

it's when you get into using cream cheese as the primary fat. Now the ratios drops appreciably. In that case I DO refrigerate.

if the ratio of sugar to other stuff is high enough -- the sugar kills!, just like it does diabetics.

just like water, need "just" the right amount to live, too much and you're dead. ditto for sugar. while bacteria do need moisture and "food" (sugar in this case) they also have to have both in the right concentrations.

I've got sugar cubes sitting in the cupboard for over 5 years -- no mold growth, SUPER high humidity and no bad bugs growing. Just too much sugar for anything to grow.

---

now as to your example -- not valid.

take a quart of milk and leave it out in 90 degree weather and it matters not if you add sugar to it or don't

it WILL still spoil -- added sugar has nothing to do with it.

the fats will go rancid, the naturally present sugar will start fermentation without any help from any added anything.

(of course, some spoilage is even desirable -- wine, beer, yogurt all based on purposefully spoiling by conversion of very low level of sugar into "other stuff")

----

if sugar and moisture ALWAYS spoiled -- couldn't have jam, jelly, syrups of all types (corn syrup lasts like forever! and honey and molasses)

its the RATIO of sugar to xyz that counts. It's an item by item, case by case consideration.

just like the diabetic can have some sugar in some forms at certain quantities and survive but in other forms and quantities -- call the ambulance.

Mike1394 Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 1:57pm
post #7 of 22

So we do agree basically LOLOL It's the amount of sugar that's needed. I hope though nobody would depend on the sugar in the recipe to "preserve" the whole.

Mike

Doug Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 2:12pm
post #8 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1394

So we do agree basically LOLOL It's the amount of sugar that's needed. I hope though nobody would depend on the sugar in the recipe to "preserve" the whole.

Mike




you do every time you make jams, jellies, sweet pickles, sugar cured bacon, etc. (having done home canning, home jam making, home pickle making... oh what a major STICKY icky mess!!! -- but yum!)

there's a whole science to it (read MATH!) that's based on the water reactivity level -- ratio of water to all the things the bad buggies can eat.
the local farm/ag extension has all kinds of info on this stuff as do most state departments of Ag. and "somewhere" in the vast mess of the USDA there's data on it too.

the problem as I see it -- by the time you get the sugar to the right level -- OH TOOOOOOOO sweet -- notice all the complaints we get about "the BC you used is TOO sweet."

Mike1394 Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 2:18pm
post #9 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike1394

So we do agree basically LOLOL It's the amount of sugar that's needed. I hope though nobody would depend on the sugar in the recipe to "preserve" the whole.

Mike



the problem as I see it -- by the time you get the sugar to the right level -- OH TOOOOOOOO sweet -- notice all the complaints we get about "the BC you used is TOO sweet."




That's my point, Doug. The point it NEEDS to be at it's inedible, well sugar is NEVER really inedible is it? LOLOL.

Since you mentioned bacon is that a marketing term, OR is it really the salt doing the curing, and the sugar tempering the taste of the salt?

Mike

Doug Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 2:23pm
post #10 of 22

look up "sugar curing" on the internet -- yep it's a real and really old method (bacon, ham, salmon, and other foods)

it's a combo of the sugar, the salt and the smoke (first "cured" in sugar (usually brown)/salt combo, then smoked (dehydrated even more)

hmm...
diabetic, high blood pressure, cancer

and that's just the sugar, salt, smoke -- not even counting the cholesterol from the bacon fat itself!

wow -- real healthy! NOT!


(re: too sweet, yep a LITTLE honey, jam goes a long way!)

Mike1394 Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 2:26pm
post #11 of 22

Good discussion Doug. icon_biggrin.gif

Mike

Off to smoke a butt icon_biggrin.gif

Doug Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 2:28pm
post #12 of 22

if it's pork, call me for dinner!

agentdorkfish Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 6:53pm
post #13 of 22

To save for making another topic, I'm adding my question here, since it relates.

How long can a cake set out with a cream cheese filling without it going bad? I made a super yummy blueberry cream cheese filling, so I would hate for it to go bad before the reception tomorrow!

I covered the cake with MMF, too, btw.

Doug Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 7:22pm
post #14 of 22

i'd refrigerate it sealed in a box.

keep in box until just before ready to serve so condensation happens on box and not cake.

emiyeric Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 7:22pm
post #15 of 22

Thanks, Doug and Mike, for that great discussion and all the resources! I'm a pediatrician, and it drives me bananas with worry to hear of people hoping the sugar in their cream cheese will hold their cakes.

I know it's an unpopular choice (and here I become anecdotal instead of evidence-based, but oh well!), but I've never had a problem with fondant in the fridge ... I know Macsmom works only in fondant and refrigerates her cakes when needed as well. I just add my last details once the cake is out of the fridge to avoid condensation/moisture ruining my tiny bits of sugar on the MFF. It's easier to risk that than food poisoning icon_razz.gif.

I love this site!

Doug Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 7:29pm
post #16 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by emiyeric

Thanks, Doug and Mike, for that great discussion and all the resources! I'm a pediatrician, and it drives me bananas with worry to hear of people hoping the sugar in their cream cheese will hold their cakes.

I know it's an unpopular choice (and here I become anecdotal instead of evidence-based, but oh well!), but I've never had a problem with fondant in the fridge ... I know Macsmom works only in fondant and refrigerates her cakes when needed as well. I just add my last details once the cake is out of the fridge to avoid condensation/moisture ruining my tiny bits of sugar on the MFF. It's easier to risk that than food poisoning icon_razz.gif.

I love this site!




I don't think people understand all fats are not equal

and cream cheese, while major fatty, is not pure fat whereas butter is about 85% fat and 25% water and therefore can sit out much longer before going rancid.

the milk solids in cream cheese can go rancid so fast and milk solids are not fats -- they're proteins just like in meat.

now let's just see. leave meat/fish/chicken uncooked out on the counter for two or three days? Food safety guidelines say get in and keep in the fridge until time to cook (thawing meat on counter top ---oh such a BAD idea!)

and cream cheese is loaded with protein. refrigerate!

as for fondant:
Duff refrigerates
Buddy (CakeBoss) refrigerates
You even see them do it on many of the cake challenges.

I don't get the fuss either on that -- if worried about condensation - put it in a sealed box.

MelissaMay Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 7:46pm
post #17 of 22

Wow! I am offically confused. (not that hard to accomplish) I was taught NOT to refrigerate fondant....should I be??

emiyeric Posted 8 Aug 2009 , 7:58pm
post #18 of 22

No, no, we're not saying you have to refrigerate fondant, we're saying you CAN if your filling requires it.

MelissaMay Posted 9 Aug 2009 , 2:48am
post #19 of 22

Oh , O.k. Thanks I'm easily confused!!LOL

joviolette Posted 9 Aug 2009 , 4:04am
post #20 of 22

Hmm well I'm still confused. I was trying to find a whipped cream style filling and was considering dream whip but I can seem to find a recipe that can sit out for very long. If I refrigerate until I deliver it, then keep in a/c until maybe 30 mins before the wedding should I be ok? The drive is about 30 mins, maybe go an hour early to be safe, so in total it would be out of the fridge 2.5- 3 hrs?

Doug Posted 9 Aug 2009 , 7:59pm
post #21 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by joviolette

Hmm well I'm still confused. I was trying to find a whipped cream style filling and was considering dream whip but I can seem to find a recipe that can sit out for very long. If I refrigerate until I deliver it, then keep in a/c until maybe 30 mins before the wedding should I be ok? The drive is about 30 mins, maybe go an hour early to be safe, so in total it would be out of the fridge 2.5- 3 hrs?




use a stabilized whipped cream recipe otherwise, no matter what that whipped cream will separate and it won't take all that long refrigerated or not.

whipped cream has to be kept cold, not just because of spoilage concerns, but also be cause of it's tendency to separate.

joviolette Posted 10 Aug 2009 , 5:57am
post #22 of 22

Ok stabilized whipped cream sounds the plan, thanks!

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