Help!!!! Ri Flowers Won't Release

Decorating By auntmamie Updated 12 Apr 2009 , 7:38pm by tonedna

auntmamie Posted 10 Apr 2009 , 11:58pm
post #1 of 26

I made 50 RI easter lilies last night. Per wilton's instructions, I used small foil candy wrappers and pressed the foil in the lily nail. Now, the flowers won't release in one piece from the nail. If I let them dry for another day, will they dry more? Or am I sol? Cake is for Sunday - family dinner.

Thanks in advance for saving me from drink tonight!!!!!

25 replies
tonedna Posted 11 Apr 2009 , 12:05am
post #2 of 26

Let them dry more.. maybe they are still wet. The bigger flowers require more time to dry than smaller ones.
Edna icon_biggrin.gif

SweetMelissa2007 Posted 11 Apr 2009 , 12:14am
post #3 of 26

That happened to me once. I let them dry longer and they still stuck. It took a long time to dry. I stuck a pin in the bottom to check for "dryness". Some were still not dry when I needed to use them. Even though they were dry, the foil still stuck to some. I had to peal it off and some would peel in strips.

tonedna Posted 11 Apr 2009 , 1:04am
post #4 of 26

Is your royal icing too thin?? thats the only reason that can happen. If it keeps happening, do a light spray of pam to the foil..
Edna icon_smile.gif

Cakepro Posted 11 Apr 2009 , 5:52am
post #5 of 26

In the future, apply a very light coat of Crisco to your foil before piping your flowers and when they are dry, they will pop right out!

indydebi Posted 11 Apr 2009 , 12:32pm
post #6 of 26

I dont' use royal, but a question for you all.... haven't i read on here that when making royal, everything has to be grease free or the royal won't work right? That grease will break down the royal? Or am I confusing that with something else?

DianeLM Posted 11 Apr 2009 , 1:11pm
post #7 of 26

I agree they haven't dried long enough. Those deep lily type flowers usually take more than 24 hours to dry thoroughly.

In the future, use Reynolds No-Stick foil. Your flowers will JUMP right out! icon_smile.gif

auntmamie Posted 11 Apr 2009 , 1:17pm
post #8 of 26

Thanks for all the responses!

Indydebi - you are correct. Grease will cause RI to breakdown. My WMI instructed us to get seperate everything (bowls, bags, tips, couplers) for use with RI.

I wanted to make sure I had flowers for my cake, so last night I made 33 GP easter lilies as well. Hopefully one of the two sets of flowers will work. And I will use different foil, or the pam method, in the future.

tonedna Posted 11 Apr 2009 , 2:06pm
post #9 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by indydebi

I dont' use royal, but a question for you all.... haven't i read on here that when making royal, everything has to be grease free or the royal won't work right? That grease will break down the royal? Or am I confusing that with something else?





I am with you guys on this..I even talk about this on my video. But some Wilton teachers have tried and they say it works..I never have a problem with my flowers sticking to the paper. To me when they stick is either cause they are not dried or the consistency of the icing was wrong.

Supposedly since you are making the flower on the spot is not a problem. They dont use crisco though, they used pam..

As for myself..I prefer to fix my RI before playing with grease around it.
I feel that eventually the grease will get to it and mess the rest of the bag..
Edna

Cakepro Posted 11 Apr 2009 , 3:52pm
post #10 of 26

I've been teaching Wilton classes for 11 years now ~ more than a thousand students ~ and I have always taught my students to grease their foil with vegetable shortening. I taught that way for 9 years, until the Fondant & Gumpaste course was introduced, and then I switched to using Crisco (because all of my C3 students have already taken FGP and already had it in their supplies).

Fat must not be incorporated into royal icing when you are MAKING it. Once it's made, you can pipe RI out onto greased surfaces and it's perfectly fine. Grease is not somehow going to crawl up into your piping bag and ruin it. icon_rolleyes.gif

Your icing may be the perfect consistency and you're still going to have to peel the foil off when the flower is dried. If you put a little Crisco or vegetable oil on your foil first, the flowers just pop out. Spray Pam is not something I have tried because that would be too much and too messy.

tonedna Posted 11 Apr 2009 , 7:11pm
post #11 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cakepro

I've been teaching Wilton classes for 11 years now ~ more than a thousand students ~ and I have always taught my students to grease their foil with vegetable shortening. I taught that way for 9 years, until the Fondant & Gumpaste course was introduced, and then I switched to using Crisco (because all of my C3 students have already taken FGP and already had it in their supplies).

Fat must not be incorporated into royal icing when you are MAKING it. Once it's made, you can pipe RI out onto greased surfaces and it's perfectly fine. Grease is not somehow going to crawl up into your piping bag and ruin it. icon_rolleyes.gif

Your icing may be the perfect consistency and you're still going to have to peel the foil off when the flower is dried. If you put a little Crisco or vegetable oil on your foil first, the flowers just pop out. Spray Pam is not something I have tried because that would be too much and too messy.





Actually..I disagree with you, if your grease gets inside your bag, this can happen on refill, it will ruin your RI.. I do wedding cakes for a living a teach and I seen this happen to many times. The problem is on refilling your bags. Hands full of grease or a spatula with just the tiniest bit of crisco will affect the consistency of RI.
Edna

Cakepro Posted 11 Apr 2009 , 8:14pm
post #12 of 26

Well, presumably one would not have grease on their spatula when refilling their bags or somehow otherwise manage to get it INSIDE their piping bag. icon_rolleyes.gif

Again, mixing grease in royal icing breaks the royal icing.

Piping royal icing on grease-lubed foil will not harm the royal icing at all.

I do wedding cakes, too, and neither in my business nor in my teaching career have I ever seen someone refill their bag with a greasy spatula or greasy hands or whatever and subsequently ruin their royal icing. That seems quite improbable, but *shrug* to each his own.

tonedna Posted 11 Apr 2009 , 9:15pm
post #13 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cakepro

Well, presumably one would not have grease on their spatula when refilling their bags or somehow otherwise manage to get it INSIDE their piping bag. icon_rolleyes.gif

Again, mixing grease in royal icing breaks the royal icing.

Piping royal icing on grease-lubed foil will not harm the royal icing at all.

I do wedding cakes, too, and neither in my business nor in my teaching career have I ever seen someone refill their bag with a greasy spatula or greasy hands or whatever and subsequently ruin their royal icing. That seems quite improbable, but *shrug* to each his own.




Some people dont even think it will harm it, specially beginners. Some people dont even know that plastic containers have pores that hold grease and even though you think the plastic is well washed the grease that is in those pores will get into the RI making it a soupy mess.. ANd the best way to store your RI, if using plastic, is to use brand new ones...

Edna icon_smile.gif

Cakepro Posted 11 Apr 2009 , 9:33pm
post #14 of 26

Yep. Not quite sure how that ties into the discussion of removing RI flowers from foil, but yes, that is true.

tonedna Posted 11 Apr 2009 , 9:36pm
post #15 of 26

Just a fact..something good to know..

kakeladi2 Posted 11 Apr 2009 , 9:46pm
post #16 of 26

......... when making royal, everything has to be grease free or the royal won't work right? That grease will break down the royal?..........

I haven't read all the replies yet but here is the 'skinny' on RI:

When *making* it grease free is totally right.......BUT..... once it has been properly mixed your worries about grease are 99.9% over icon_smile.gif
Yes, *very lightly* grease the foil; spray workes best, then use a paper towel to blot off any excess.

My air-drying b'cream recipe (for roses mostly) is nothing more than RI to which one adds 1/2 to 2/3 cup of Crisco icon_smile.gif

To remove the foil one must work very, very slowly. Start by pulling apart the folds in the foil at the top - little by little. Don't even pull it down at all - just loosen the foil by pulling apart the folds and gently releasing the petals.
Now, holding the flower push up on the bottom of the flower while pulling the foil down from the petals. Again, s-l-o-w-l-y until it is completely released.
There will be times youj will not be able to get 100% of the foil off icon_sad.gif

........My WMI instructed us to get seperate everything (bowls, bags, tips, couplers) for use with RI........

IMHO this is totally UNnecessary! As I said above, once the RI is properly whipped stiff there is no need for worry........so seperate bags, tips, couplers are NOT necessary.

Cakepro said:.......Fat must not be incorporated into royal icing when you are MAKING it. Once it's made, you can pipe RI out onto greased surfaces and it's perfectly fine. Grease is not somehow going to crawl up into your piping bag and ruin it..........

Exactly!

tonedna Posted 11 Apr 2009 , 9:54pm
post #17 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by kakeladi2

......... when making royal, everything has to be grease free or the royal won't work right? That grease will break down the royal?..........

I haven't read all the replies yet but here is the 'skinny' on RI:

When *making* it grease free is totally right.......BUT..... once it has been properly mixed your worries about grease are 99.9% over icon_smile.gif
Yes, *very lightly* grease the foil; spray workes best, then use a paper towel to blot off any excess.

My air-drying b'cream recipe (for roses mostly) is nothing more than RI to which one adds 1/2 to 2/3 cup of Crisco icon_smile.gif

To remove the foil one must work very, very slowly. Start by pulling apart the folds in the foil at the top - little by little. Don't even pull it down at all - just loosen the foil by pulling apart the folds and gently releasing the petals.
Now, holding the flower push up on the bottom of the flower while pulling the foil down from the petals. Again, s-l-o-w-l-y until it is completely released.
There will be times youj will not be able to get 100% of the foil off icon_sad.gif

........My WMI instructed us to get seperate everything (bowls, bags, tips, couplers) for use with RI........

IMHO this is totally UNnecessary! As I said above, once the RI is properly whipped stiff there is no need for worry........so seperate bags, tips, couplers are NOT necessary.

Cakepro said:.......Fat must not be incorporated into royal icing when you are MAKING it. Once it's made, you can pipe RI out onto greased surfaces and it's perfectly fine. Grease is not somehow going to crawl up into your piping bag and ruin it..........
Exactly!





As a note...the wilton couplers are made of a plastic wich sealed pores that dont suck the grease as a tupperwear will. So you dont have to separate those. But for example, some people will wash a plastic bag and reuse them, those cant be re- used for RI..

Then again, if you are working with buttercream..and RI in the same enviroment, that spatula that is used for the buttercream can't be used to refill bags for RI.

I seen people doing this...even after is mix, royal icing can be damaged with grease. Then again piping it on top of some crisco, that actually you are not mixing it with the RI, its simply just laying on top of it, it wont harm it. The harm comes in the mix..

Edna

Cakepro Posted 12 Apr 2009 , 12:39am
post #18 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by tonedna


Then again, if you are working with buttercream..and RI in the same enviroment, that spatula that is used for the buttercream can't be used to refill bags for RI.




I seen people doing this...even after is mix, royal icing can be damaged with grease. Then again piping it on top of some crisco, that actually you are not mixing it with the RI, its simply just laying on top of it, it wont harm it. The harm comes in the mix..

Edna[/quote]

Yes, we all agree, let's say it together:

ROYAL ICING GETS DAMAGED WHEN PEOPLE **MIX** GREASE INTO IT, WHETHER IT IS RESIDUAL GREASE FROM A BOWL OR PIPING BAG NOT WASHED WELL ENOUGH, A DIRTY SPATULA, OR WHATEVER.

LOL, yes, I am yelling. I am irritated at the arguing in this thread when there should be no arguing!

Anybody who is careless enough to stick a buttercream-y spatula into their royal icing to refill their bags deserves to have their royal icing ruined. LOL!

Cakepro Posted 12 Apr 2009 , 7:00am
post #19 of 26

Sorry, didn't mean to scare y'all. icon_biggrin.gif LOL

kakeladi2 Posted 12 Apr 2009 , 1:17pm
post #20 of 26

........My air-drying b'cream recipe (for roses mostly) is nothing more than RI to which one adds 1/2 to 2/3 cup of Crisco ........
.......ROYAL ICING GETS DAMAGED WHEN PEOPLE **MIX** GREASE INTO IT,......

Not really icon_smile.gif See above.....air-drying b'cream.
I cannot remember ever having RI 'spoiled' by using a spatula or bag that had bits of grease on it.

Cakepro Posted 12 Apr 2009 , 2:28pm
post #21 of 26

Image

Royal icing is not the same as what you are calling "air-drying buttercream" icing. All buttercream will air-dry if it is left out long enough. You are simply adding egg whites to your buttercream which speeds the drying out of the buttercream.

Royal icing breaks if any grease is incorporated into the icing during the mixing of the icing, meaning the icing will remain soupy. It will not come together. I have seen it many times in my students' icing and have done it myself once before.

tonedna Posted 12 Apr 2009 , 4:17pm
post #22 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cakepro

Image

Royal icing is not the same as what you are calling "air-drying buttercream" icing. All buttercream will air-dry if it is left out long enough. You are simply adding egg whites to your buttercream which speeds the drying out of the buttercream.

Royal icing breaks if any grease is incorporated into the icing during the mixing of the icing, meaning the icing will remain soupy. It will not come together. I have seen it many times in my students' icing and have done it myself once before.





agreed! icon_smile.gif... Dont get irritated cakepro...In cake baking everybody has their own opinions...Is always interesting to see how it changes from person to person... icon_smile.gif
Edna icon_biggrin.gif

goldenegg Posted 12 Apr 2009 , 6:46pm
post #23 of 26

Haha i totally agree w/ you Edna, can't everyone just agree to disagree & move on lol, no need for so much aggression & frustration save it for the batting cages. It's cakes not life or death, keep it fun! ::: ducks ::: tapedshut.gif

On a side note, very informative stuff, thanks ladies!

goldenegg Posted 12 Apr 2009 , 6:47pm
post #24 of 26

Haha i totally agree w/ you Edna, can't everyone just agree to disagree & move on lol, no need for so much aggression & frustration save it for the batting cages. It's cakes not life or death, keep it fun! ::: ducks ::: tapedshut.gif

On a side note, very informative stuff, thanks ladies!

goldenegg Posted 12 Apr 2009 , 6:51pm
post #25 of 26

Sorry for the double post i dunno what happened icon_lol.gif

tonedna Posted 12 Apr 2009 , 7:38pm
post #26 of 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldenegg

Sorry for the double post i dunno what happened icon_lol.gif




lol...you didnt duck well!... icon_lol.gif


Edna icon_biggrin.gif

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